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Old 06-08-2008, 09:35 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

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Originally Posted by Chironex View Post
Pauly, it's a good problem to have, we will figure out something. Maybe we will open a banana stand!!!! (just kidding - no way I am standing in a tent in that heat!!!) Maybe we will grow some and sell our overflow to the casinos....who knows?
well casinos are notoriously close minded and if it takes up space they defiantly will not go for it but they do like exotic high end stuff that they think makes them unique so maybe would could become there meager in town suppliers but lighting is always a problem in casinos and they rely on some pretty uneducated people to water and take care of this stuff not that theres not some really talented Agra experts working for them as one of are head members in the las Vegas Orchid society is a gardener for a casino its something to think about but i would think that the requirements would be at least a one to two acer green house and allot of contracts but one could start Small i guess and theres always the dreaded Clark County water district to deal with there not real big on water intensive Business and getting a permit for a well is vary difficult now there was a time when digging was just a mater of calling a drilling co but now there all sorts of paper work sorry I'm just thinking out loud it was suggested yesterday to me at my birthday party that i should find a Passion and start my own business as i find working for others vary difficult wow growing bananas in the desert for casinos i think this mite be something they will want mature but not to tall plants probably ones with lots of color and their going to want ones with flower not sure if they would want fruiting but i think that mite be cool to look at on there floors wed probably have to talk them in to that point theirs room for contracts to maintenance and we could rotate the plants in and out so they would stay healthy so weed need a good size truck lets talk about this more when you get here in July i think this could be something grate wow I'm really excited we could do some palms to i think the intermix would be fascinating and theirs also design services i have a asc. fa.. in fine arts and I'm currently dosing some consultancy for different Clients on there homes theirs another aspect and thats supplying Bananas for designers there are already about 15 florist that are supplying plants but most of the casinos have there own people for doing the set ups and such but we could change that the meager players here are vary over priced and if are over head was really low we could undercut them significantly and really retail on a say 10 ft tall Musa could be vary cheep and we take the hit for all cost associated with it all they have to do is pay and look at it not a bad deal for them sorta no strings
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Old 06-08-2008, 11:22 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

We will talk about this when I get there. It sure has some potential, especially since we would have the only bananas grown locally. Other would have to ship them in. Hmmmmm.......
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:01 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

update one of the ice creams has really zoomed ahead of the other its now almost 3 ft tall the other one is still looking like its struggling they are vary different as the tall one was vary fat to begin with and the other was rather tall and skinny the Williams wail looking vary dark green is still only 12 in tall but has nice leaf development all are still burning quit fast if i dint shad them allot particularly when a new leaf as just opined i have to shade it more until the leaf ages for about 3 days slow the largest one is quite light green in color despite heave applications of Vigrow palm food thinking about switching to a faster releasing higher nitrogen fertilizer any suggestions for toughening up the leafs?
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:42 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

After further research, here are the two most likely candidates for developing hybrids or sports for desert climates:

'Chandan ' TRY1036 (AAB) a.k.a. Poovan - a sub-species of Mysore (Mysore cv. 507)
Here is a link to the Evaluations to abiotic Stress: http://195.220.148.3:8013/MGIS_2/Tk.exe$Query?DataSource=MGIS_2&V_STRESS_ABIOTIC_NUM.HIGHTEMP-OP==&V_STRESS_ABIOTIC_NUM.HIGHTEMP=2&Output=/MGIS_2/Evaluation_ABiotic.htm&tab_accession_stress_abioLIST.IDNUM-OP==&tab_accession_stress_abioLIST.IDNUM=TRY0136&MapRes=8

'Cuban' TRY0126 (ABB) a.k.a. Jillegudam - a sub-species of Bontha
Link to its Evaluation to Abiotic stress: http://195.220.148.3:8013/MGIS_2/Tk.exe$Query?DataSource=MGIS_2&V_STRESS_ABIOTIC_NUM.HIGHTEMP-OP==&V_STRESS_ABIOTIC_NUM.HIGHTEMP=2&Output=/MGIS_2/Evaluation_ABiotic.htm&tab_accession_stress_abioLIST.IDNUM-OP==&tab_accession_stress_abioLIST.IDNUM=TRY0126&MapRes=8

As you will see, these show very low susceptibilities to heat and drought, wind and cold temps as well. There are also pics of these 2 and they appear to be fair fruit producers.

I could not find much information on 'Cuban' TRY0126 because of the familiar name of Cuban Red/Jamaican Red in all of the search engines.

If anyone has a source for TRY126 Chandan (or Poovan or Mysore cv 507) please let me know. This would seem to be the most likely starting point for our studies. Failing that, I will use the Mysore that we are getting already.
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:31 PM   #45 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

Great find! I'll keep an eye out for those.

Something interesting...
Las Vegas Delight Tomatoes.

They grow tomatoes in a greenhouse in Vegas and are able to keep the thing at about 80F and high humidity. Absolute perfect environment for growing bananas.

"Cooling Challenge
"One of the major challenges of operating this type of facility is keeping the tomato crop cooled properly," according to Gerhart. "We use a high pressure fog system to do the cooling. The system adds humidity in the form of a mist, and as the water evaporates, it cools the air. That enables us to maintain 80° in here when it is 110 degrees outside. Ideally, our goal is 65-70°. We also can maintain a 65% humidity level, which is close to ideal for tomato plants."

"During the winter months, we use a tremendous amount of heat," Gerhart says. "Even when it is 60° outside, the plants are transpiring, giving off moisture. This raises the humidity level, which in turn lowers the air temperature and requires supplementary heat."
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:04 PM   #46 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

Interesting about the genetics on those two. From what i've seen, the varieties that do best with heat/drought are AAB and ABB. I'm still thinking Raja puri (AAB) and Orinoco (ABB) are probably the two best candidates. Both are very drought/heat tolerant AS WELL as cold-hardy. Since Vegas gets very cold, this trait should be important as well.
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:13 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

Adam, I noticed that too. I have a Raja Puri, so I didn't mention it. MGIS rates it in the next level up in heat-tolerance susceptibility as I recall. If you look at the facts on Mysore, it also has low susceptibility to cold. The more we have to work with, the better our chances is the way I see it.
I would like to find out if there is a correlation to cold/heat tolerance associated with leaf thickness, as Pauly suggested. I wonder what genetic switch creates that trait? If it could be found and bred through selective breeding, we may be onto something.
Always hopeful..............
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:35 AM   #48 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

I just ordered mysore, raja puri, orinoco, and itinerans from banana-tree. Others I already have are sikkimensis, daj giant, basjoo, Musella, ornata, velutina, violacea, E. glaucum, E. ventricosum, and zebrina. Now to find the "Cuba" variety....

Oh and i'll be looking for houses in Henderson in a few weeks... can't wait.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:40 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

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Adam, I noticed that too. I have a Raja Puri, so I didn't mention it. MGIS rates it in the next level up in heat-tolerance susceptibility as I recall. If you look at the facts on Mysore, it also has low susceptibility to cold. The more we have to work with, the better our chances is the way I see it.
I would like to find out if there is a correlation to cold/heat tolerance associated with leaf thickness, as Pauly suggested. I wonder what genetic switch creates that trait? If it could be found and bred through selective breeding, we may be onto something.
Always hopeful..............
yes but thees bananas are sterile and you would have to genetically engineer them wouldn't you? the Willams has the thickest leaf in my gardin and burns the leas at this point the Ice creams are vary fragal but it took the W. sevral moths befor its leafs thikind up so im wachin them closly
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:28 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

Your observations on leaf thickening is a very good thing to know. It is nature's response to the environment and will prove helpful in our study.
What I mean is that by trying to find the pups that do better in the heat/arid climate, nature may produce some sports that have characteristics (i.e. leaf thickening, etc.) for heat tolerance. In this harsh environment, the sun may cause mutations to occur as the plants regenerate. Some may survive by "flipping the switch" to survive the intensity of the heat/dryness. These mutated pups can be TC'ed to make more and then choose the ones that show the ability to withstand more and more heat. I am not advanced enough in my TC study to determine whether there is a way to mix protoplasm of one with another to create hybrids. But I will continue to study and learn. There has to be a way to do this. If anyone has suggestions, please feel free. Short of learning and being able to perform micro-genetic DNA implantation and such, I am all ears. Perhaps we will have a member who knows someone to do this sort of thing, who knows.
Keep watching your bananas for any changes Pauly, everything we can learn puts us one step closer.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:39 PM   #51 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

The likelyhood of a mutation occuring during asexual reproduction is pretty slim. I was thinking though that if a young plant (ie tissue culture) was exposed to mutagens (ie radiation), there would be a higher chance of mutations occuring. The cells in the apical meristem would need to be targeted. The chances of a mutation occuring that increases the heat/arid tolerance is pretty unlikely though. Probably not worth the effort.

A faster easier better way of doing this. Breed two plants that can create viable seeds. (ie two diploids). Sprout the seeds and select the ones that do best in the arid conditions. Raise those plants and continue sexual reproduction. Repeat over and over and hope for some good mutations. This would work no doubt, but it could take hundreds or thousands of generations.

The quickest way is genetic engineering. Find desired genes and splice them into the desired plant. This won't be happening without a lot of money.

The easiest way to find a banana that does well in Vegas....

build a greenhouse ;p
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:21 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

Ok, ok, I agree with you about the greenhouse, lol! I still want to experiment to see if there is something that can be done to develop a more heat tolerant banana. The journey is as interesting to me as the destination. If nothing else, I will learn a lot.
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:36 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

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Your observations on leaf thickening is a very good thing to know. It is nature's response to the environment and will prove helpful in our study.
What I mean is that by trying to find the pups that do better in the heat/arid climate, nature may produce some sports that have characteristics (i.e. leaf thickening, etc.) for heat tolerance. In this harsh environment, the sun may cause mutations to occur as the plants regenerate. Some may survive by "flipping the switch" to survive the intensity of the heat/dryness. These mutated pups can be TC'ed to make more and then choose the ones that show the ability to withstand more and more heat. I am not advanced enough in my TC study to determine whether there is a way to mix protoplasm of one with another to create hybrids. But I will continue to study and learn. There has to be a way to do this. If anyone has suggestions, please feel free. Short of learning and being able to perform micro-genetic DNA implantation and such, I am all ears. Perhaps we will have a member who knows someone to do this sort of thing, who knows.
Keep watching your bananas for any changes Pauly, everything we can learn puts us one step closer.
an interesting notation one of the things we have here in Vegas is that on the news every morning they tell what the UV index is and it tends to run quite high here for example todays UV index is 10 out of a possible 12 this could account for the high burn rate not the heat of the sun so this brings about an obvious question
what elements of the leaf protect from UV exposers (we are probably covering already prov-in ground here) and throw empirical testing one could determine which speasheas have the best resistants all bet and this is just a guess that for example the Mysore has a vary thick coting on the leafs that protect it which could allow be why its so drought tolerant perhaps this hypothesized coting also works to keep moisture in? so when we look at different desert speasheas on thing becomes apparent vary quickly most have thick waxy leafs and aboves adaptation to heat light and transpiration now baring that in mind remember that Musa is closely related to Palm's which defiantly have adaptations to desert condition so there mite be some of the same genes still present and we could look for signs of thees and exploit them to bring them forward in any Musa we want to what do you think? am i wrong on this or is it Worthy of consideration if i were a made scientist id simply take the Gene for thick leafs and plant it in to the genome of a Musa
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:49 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

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Ok, ok, I agree with you about the greenhouse, lol! I still want to experiment to see if there is something that can be done to develop a more heat tolerant banana. The journey is as interesting to me as the destination. If nothing else, I will learn a lot.
i should read more carefully i was just wighting a response to Adams MSG when it evaporated but then i read your Scot and so it was moot any way but i will say I'm apposed to any kind of Gene manipulation its not in the best interest of the planet and can lead to all sorts of complication not excluding accidentally introducing toxicities
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:34 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

The attack of the killer bananas! Rest easy my friend, genetic manipulation is far beyond my reach both scientifically as well as financially. I am merely suggesting that if the genome finds the genetic switch for heat tolerance in Mysore for example, perhaps we could find a way to select those with the switch and try to produce offspring that carry the trait. Selective breeding of some sort could produce a more heat resistant sport or hybrid. Don't know how it could be done yet, just thinking out loud. I bet that some of Darwins earliest experiments would seem folly to most too, or Edison, any of the greats - yet through trial and error, sometimes good things happened. So my spirits are undaunted. Besides, I just like the whole analytical learning experience, so what the heck, right?
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:31 PM   #56 (permalink)
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The attack of the killer bananas! Rest easy my friend, genetic manipulation is far beyond my reach both scientifically as well as financially. I am merely suggesting that if the genome finds the genetic switch for heat tolerance in Mysore for example, perhaps we could find a way to select those with the switch and try to produce offspring that carry the trait. Selective breeding of some sort could produce a more heat resistant sport or hybrid. Don't know how it could be done yet, just thinking out loud. I bet that some of Darwin's earliest experiments would seem folly to most too, or Edison, any of the greats - yet through trial and error, sometimes good things happened. So my spirits are undaunted. Besides, I just like the whole analytical learning experience, so what the heck, right?
Me to besides being artistic i also did vary well in science i was also think of another approach what if there were a type of nutrient that could be applied that mite help plants cope with higher temps and dryer soil maybe a trace element I'm going to go do some reading all post back what i find if any thing
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:58 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

ok i read this what do you think?
Dry season duration (consecutive months
with <40 mm [1.6 in] rainfall)
The ability of Musa spp. to survive for a given
length of time in the absence of rainfall is dependent
on the following factors:
soil type, structure, and drainage
shade level; transpiration requirements
mono-cropping vs. a diversified/
agroforestry system
pest and disease pressure
plant nutrition and soil fertility.
Because the plants can store a significant
amount of water within their pseudostems and
rhizomes, they can survive extended periods of
drought, although their growth will slow down
or cease under such conditions. In Hawai‘i’s rocky volcanic
soils, banana suffers significant drought stress and yield reductions
after only a few weeks without rain.
Since Musa balbisiana is considerably more drought hardy
than M. acuminata, increasing proportions of B in a
cultivar’s genome are correlated with increased drought
tolerance. In other words, cooking varieties such as ‘Saba’
(ABB) and ‘Bluggoe’ (‘Largo’ in Hawai‘i, ABB), can be
grown more successfully in dry, windy areas than many
other varieties. ‘Sucrier’ (AA), with much A in its genome,
is notably difficult to grow and rarely survives with low
moisture or humidity.
••

••
Mean annual temperature
26–28°C (79–82°F) is optimum for shooting (vegetative
growth of banana). 29–30°C (84–86°F) is optimum for
fruiting.
Mean maximum temperature of hottest month
35–37°C (95–99°F)
Mean minimum temperature of coldest month
–2–30°C (28–86°F)
Minimum temperature tolerated
The minimum temperature tolerated depends upon the
species. At 16°C (60°F) banana plant growth slows; at 10°C
(50°F), growth stops. Chilling damage and tissue necrosis
Typical mixed forest planting of banana
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:38 PM   #58 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

Here's an idea. Banana plants grown as ornamentals are often given part shade (up to 60% or more) to get better-looking leaves. I have some bananas growing in my greenhouse now that are putting out leaves pretty quick (1 per week at least). There is a tree above the greenhouse that gives the banana plants shade (90% plus during most of the day), but they are doing great! For fruit production, this might not be the best, but for the foliage it seems fine.

So for vegas...

Plant "Ailanthus altissima" (tree of heaven) arount the bananas. This tree is very tropical in appearance and grows like a weed. VERY fast growth. It will lose it's leaves in the winter months. It can be pruned to allow more light to the bananas. Might be worth a try. I choose this tree since not too many trees can grow as quickly to provide shade and it looks tropical.
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:42 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

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Originally Posted by Velutina View Post
Here's an idea. Banana plants grown as ornamentals are often given part shade (up to 60% or more) to get better-looking leaves. I have some bananas growing in my greenhouse now that are putting out leaves pretty quick (1 per week at least). There is a tree above the greenhouse that gives the banana plants shade (90% plus during most of the day), but they are doing great! For fruit production, this might not be the best, but for the foliage it seems fine.

So for vegas...

Plant "Ailanthus altissima" (tree of heaven) around the bananas. This tree is very tropical in appearance and grows like a weed. VERY fast growth. It will lose it's leaves in the winter months. It can be pruned to allow more light to the bananas. Might be worth a try. I choose this tree since not too many trees can grow as quickly to provide shade and it looks tropical.
i like your thinking but I'm not sure about this tree here i pasted this -
Tree-of-heaven is a prolific seed producer, grows rapidly, and can overrun native vegetation. Once established, it can quickly take over a site and form an impenetrable thicket. Ailanthus trees also produces toxins that prevent the establishment of other plant species. The root system is aggressive enough to cause damage to sewers and foundations.
smal property= damage to house
so i think you are on to something maybe just not this tree for me any way. thinking more along the lines of a persimmon I'm nuts about there fruit
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:58 PM   #60 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: high temperature banana growing habits

I have a tree of heaven in my yard right now that came up on it's own (i didn't put it there). I cut it back every fall and it grows back to a beautiful 6-8' shrub the next year. It never gets a chance to seed before I cut it. It does have an interesting odor but for the easy care and tropical effect, I have enjoyed it. In vegas though I definately wouldn't want it to be too big and become invasive. The toxin doesn't sound too great either. Any other ideas on trees that would provide shade within 1 year?
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