Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic) - Page 5

momoese · 08-23-2009, 08:47 AM

SBL. if you were to truck in a mass amount of clay to mix with your sand what would happen?

Richard · 08-23-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

If the synthetic (beer) product does not touch the plants or soil then am I really using it in the garden. I think not. I could have an open container of Roundup in the middle of my yard but that does not constitute usage. No application = no usage.

The point is that you are drinking a product that is no less synthetic or toxic than several of the water soluble fertilizers and pesticides which you are constantly criticizing.

Richard · 08-23-2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

SBL. if you were to truck in a mass amount of clay to mix with your sand what would happen?

Zeba Quench is a better choice. It takes far less quantity and meets all of Mitchell's environmental requirements.

momoese · 08-23-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

The point is that you are drinking a product that is no less synthetic or toxic than several of the water soluble fertilizers and pesticides which you are constantly criticizing.

Spin much? Thanks for a good laugh this morning!

damaclese · 08-23-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Zeba Quench is a better choice. It takes far less quantity and meets all of Mitchell's environmental requirements.

what about plain old cheep Kitty litter its 100%clay and can be bout wholesale by the tun for Cheep if you are wiling to go pick it up and its made all over the country

Tx_Crinum · 08-23-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

My garden is as nice as anyone else's and produces as much fruit with zero point zero chemical fert added, never have and never will. My garden is all natural and organic with no synthentic or chemical fert, pesticides, or herbicides. The organic garden where some of my pups came from has been organic for 30 some years, it looks and grows awesome with no chemical or synthentic anything added. They use fish scraps and plant matter, that's all!

And this brings me back full circle to my first post on this thread: Subsistence farming versus commercial production or choosing between living in a third work country or a modern industrialized society. Without all the evils of 'synthetic fertilizers' our standard of living as we know it today would be impossible. Each household would be required to expend a significant amount of their energy just to survive on a day to day basis and forgo many of our modern conveniences. If you own a car, enjoy an air conditioned home, buy your clothes at Target and keep you food fresh in a refrigerator, you are directly benefiting from the use of the evil synthetic fertilizers.

My problem is not about using or not using organic/inorganic production methods and pesticides. MY PROBLEM is with the clueless hypocrites who have found religion through organics and have no idea they should be thanking technology in agriculture on a daily basis for every modern convenience they use on a daily basis. What if Einstein, Ford and the Wright brothers had to spend every day working their own garden just to survive on a daily basis rather than have time to create their inventions. Well we would be using oil lamps, the whales would be extinct*, and we would be riding horses.

* If you think whales are an endangered today, do some research on the kerosene lamp. Prior to the advent of kerosene and kerosene lamp, the fuel of choice was whale oil. The change over from an organic source of oil to a 'synthetic' source exponentially reduced the systematic killing of these creatures.

Bob · 08-23-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Mitchell,
Fact is, we would all be in bad shape without the chemical oxygen.

The worm castings in your garden are about 1% nitrates, 0.5% phosphates, and 0.5% potash, plus about another 0.1% minors and micros by weight. These chemical salts are manufactured for you by your wild and untamed worms!

Beer is every bit as synthetic as water soluble fertilizers -- it even contains a surfactant. If you use beer to control slugs and snails in your garden then you are using a synthetic pesticide.

The air we breath is a chemical? ..................Is it just me or has this thread gone a bit over the top? I guess I'm looking at it simply a gardener with no agenda or whatever. How's a gardener able to discuss succesful methods without having it turned in to a scientific debate that most of us are unprepared to respond to?
Back to growing for me...........enough!

sbl · 08-23-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

SBL. if you were to truck in a mass amount of clay to mix with your sand what would happen?

It would have to come from a long way--the "red clay" base that can be bought around here is rich in iron but not much else. Many people do add a truckload of red clay/sand to their lawns, but it still requires the addition of fertilizers as the subsoil is still sand and leaches nutrients due to our heavy rainfall.

momoese · 08-23-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tx_Crinum

And this brings me back full circle to my first post on this thread: Subsistence farming versus commercial production or choosing between living in a third work country or a modern industrialized society. Without all the evils of 'synthetic fertilizers' our standard of living as we know it today would be impossible. Each household would be required to expend a significant amount of their energy just to survive on a day to day basis and forgo many of our modern conveniences. If you own a car, enjoy an air conditioned home, buy your clothes at Target and keep you food fresh in a refrigerator, you are directly benefiting from the use of the evil synthetic fertilizers.

My problem is not about using or not using organic/inorganic production methods and pesticides. MY PROBLEM is with the clueless hypocrites who have found religion through organics and have no idea they should be thanking technology in agriculture on a daily basis for every modern convenience they use on a daily basis. What if Einstein, Ford and the Wright brothers had to spend every day working their own garden just to survive on a daily basis rather than have time to create their inventions. Well we would be using oil lamps, the whales would be extinct*, and we would be riding horses.

* If you think whales are an endangered today, do some research on the kerosene lamp. Prior to the advent of kerosene and kerosene lamp, the fuel of choice was whale oil. The change over from an organic source of oil to a 'synthetic' source exponentially reduced the systematic killing of these creatures.

TX, I have never to my knowledge disagreed that "conventional" growing methods are, required to feed the worlds population. I simply don't condone it in my garden. There is just no reason for the addition of chemical ferts or pesticides in a garden that flourishes using organic growing methods. As a byproduct I give less of my hard earned money to multinational corporations like Monsanto and more to local farmers who grow the food I like eat and produce the compost my plants like. The organic free range chickens I buy from a local farmer are the best I've ever tasted and produce organic chicken manure. Win win. I also avoid GMO's by buying organic.

Btw, take at easy with all that bold text, Richard may become skeptical of your writings.

Bob · 08-23-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tx_Crinum

And this brings me back full circle to my first post on this thread:
My problem is not about using or not using organic/inorganic production methods and pesticides. MY PROBLEM is with the clueless hypocrites who have found religion through organics and have no idea they should be thanking technology in agriculture on a daily basis for every modern convenience they use on a daily basis. What if Einstein, Ford and the Wright brothers had to spend every day working their own garden just to survive on a daily basis rather than have time to create their inventions. Well we would be using oil lamps, the whales would be extinct*, and we would be riding horses.

* If you think whales are an endangered today, do some research on the kerosene lamp. Prior to the advent of kerosene and kerosene lamp, the fuel of choice was whale oil. The change over from an organic source of oil to a 'synthetic' source exponentially reduced the systematic killing of these creatures.

This is too funny.

You protest too much and your agendas laid bare. I thought we were just discussing gardening methods? Now your frustration has lead to insults since you obviously have nothing left. It really has no place in this forum. Please stop insulting your fellow banana enthusiasts. I guess you have a problem with gardeners like myself and that obviously "clueless hypocrite" momoese. Not one of you has mentioned how synthetic chemical ferilizers and weed killers is able to improve the long term health,fertility and tilth of the soil. You can't

None of the organic method practicioners has said we don't enjoy modern conveniences and surely we all do. Now we're whale killers? (Is that the best you can do or was it fired in misguided anger off the cuff?) Nor have I read about any one of the organic practioners bringing Einstein in to the..........ahem ...........gardening discussion. Why would you conjure up Ford and the Wright Brothers in a gardening forum? I feel truly sorry for you that you feel compelled to spend your day creating insults and pulling obscure unrelated facts to add to your supposed credibility, while I'm here enjoying the responses of those that feel compelled(for whatever reason?) to guide and chastise the "uninformed".
"Found Religion through organics?...........did you really go there?

I'm not going to dignify this behavior here any longer in what has previously been and remains to be a place for banana growers to compare notes and help each other out despite our personal differences for the love of the hobby we should celebrate sharing. It doesn't sound at all as if you have been encouraged to do that.

As of now maybe I'd like to swap notes in a separate forum for the like minded so we can all go back to getting along. There will be no more response from me here.

Your's truly , that silly whale killing , and clueless hypocrite
Bob

Tx_Crinum · 08-23-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

TX, I have never to my knowledge disagreed that "conventional" growing methods are required to feed the worlds population. I simply don't condone it in my garden. There is just no reason for the addition of chemical ferts or pesticides in a garden that flourishes using organic growing methods. As a byproduct I give less of my hard earned money to multinational corporations like Monsanto and more to local farmers who grow the food I like eat and produce the compost my plants like. The organic free range chickens I buy from a local farmer are the best I've ever tasted and produce organic chicken manure. Win win. I also avoid GMO's by buying organic.

Btw, take at easy with all that bold text, Richard may become skeptical of your writings.

We agree to disagree in a manner of speaking. I believe I have found the only person in the world who recognizes that practicing organic cultural methods is infeasible to meet the national and international demands for nutrition. That is intellectually refreshing. There is a universe of difference between practicing organic production methods and espousing it is the only way we should be doing it and practicing it and realizing it is not a feasible commercial production method. It is reassuring to know there is at least one smart person with common sense.

Yeah, I did get carried away on my bold text. Do you think three words is excessive?

Have a good day but did I really mean it. I have to get back to writing my lesson plans for my little miscreants that will be showing up on Monday.

LOL

Oh and Bob,

Unless you have been following and reading all 80 posts, which I know is probably very difficult to see and do from your perch on that flagpole, it is understandable how you can be so ignorant as to my comments.

momoese · 08-23-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damaclese

I don't want to change the subject. but what we need to be focusing on is how are we going to feed the Peoples of this world on organic Techniques. i don't see at this point how that will be possible. i believe one of the meager reasons we have moved forward technically and culturally is that was have not had to struggle to feed are selves. what if that changes? what then? how will we care for are plaint if its vary life is being sucked away by massive over population. i don't care what subject you are talking about in are modern life its aways comes back to this one topic "Over Population" this is the stresser, the catalyst if you were for many of bad things that have happened war famine plague they all come back to this!

I have stated the same opinion in past discussions here. I am pretty sure we can't feed the worlds population with organic growing methods, but that said, if we had far less people I think it would be possible. The Hunza's are a good example of this.

Quote:

According to Tompkins (1989), "In their manuring, the Hunzakuts return everything they can to the soil: all vegetable parts and pieces that will not serve as food for humans or beast, including such fallen leaves as the cattle will not eat, mixed with their own seasoned excrement, plus dung and urine from their barns. Like their Chinese neighbors, the Hunzakuts save their own manure in special underground vats, clear of any contaminable streams, there to be seasoned for a good six months. Everything that once had life is given new to life through loving hands." 7 (emphasis mine)

Sir Albert Howard wrote in 1947, "The Hunzas are described as far surpassing in health and strength the inhabitants of most other countries; a Hunza can walk across the mountains to Gilgit sixty miles away, transact his business, and return forthwith without feeling unduly fatigued." Sir Howard maintains that this is illustrative of the vital connection between a sound agriculture and good health, insisting that the Hunzas have evolved a system of farming which is perfect. He adds, "To provide the essential humus, every kind of waste [sic], vegetable, animal and human, is mixed and decayed together by the cultivators and incorporated into the soil; the law of return is obeyed, the unseen part of the revolution of the great Wheel is faithfully accomplished." 8 Sir Howard's view is that soil fertility is the real basis of public health.

A medical professional associated with the Hunzas claimed, "During the period of my association with these people I never saw a case of asthenic dyspepsia, of gastric or duodenal ulcer, of appendicitis, of mucous colitis, of cancer . . . Among these people the abdomen over-sensitive to nerve impressions, to fatigue, anxiety, or cold was unknown. Indeed their buoyant abdominal health has, since my return to the West, provided a remarkable contrast with the dyspeptic and colonic lamentations of our highly civilized communities."

Sir Howard adds, "The remarkable health of these people is one of the consequences of their agriculture, in which the law of return is scrupulously obeyed. All their vegetable, animal and human wastes [sic] are carefully returned to the soil of the irrigated terraces which produce the grain, fruit, and vegetables which feed them."

sbl · 08-23-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob

Not one of you has mentioned how synthetic chemical ferilizers and weed killers is able to improve the long term health,fertility and tilth of the soil. You can't

Bob

How do you define long term health, fertility and tilth of the soil?

To me it means repeatable productivity of healthy plants. If I tried to grow plants on the soil that was here when the white man first got here without any additions, most plants would produce little or nothing in this sand--if they survived at all. Native plants here are sea oats and prickley pear cactus.

Addition of natural available organic material (pine straw and live oak leaves) would help some but they are very poor in nutrients. With the addition of lawn grass clippings (fed chemical fertilizers) I can do much better, but still not as good as the same additions with commercial fertilizers and minerals--to me that is improving the soil---how do you think it has hurt the soil?

momoese · 08-23-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tx_Crinum

Yeah, I did get carried away on my bold text. Do you think three words is excessive?

I don't mind but Richard does. Good thing you didn't use color with those bolds or you might have been sent to your room for a time out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Whenever someone starts capitalizing, bolding, and especially color-bolding to make a point, I become very skeptical of the writing and the perceptions behind it.

momoese · 08-23-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Zeba Quench is a better choice. It takes far less quantity and meets all of Mitchell's environmental requirements.

There is only one L in my name. Thanks in advance.

SBL suggested that clay holds nutrients better so I thought that was what we were talking about, not the water retention of that product. Maybe you just wanted to post the name for more Google hits? Is this something you plan to sell or maybe already are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbl

Clay soil is very rich in minerals and retains nutrients much better than our sand, This sandy soil is almost the same as pure sandbox sand--no color, no minerals and no capacity to retain nutrients. Organic material aded to the soil, --say 3-4 inches of compost is gone in a yr due to our heat humidity and rainfall--over 5ft on a dry yr and almost 7 ft in some years. It is difficult to maintain a balance of any kind with that kind of leaching. I do not have to worry about burning--I have to add a small amount frequently. I use about 5 pounds a yr of trace mineral mix containing a wide variety of chemical salts, of Iron, Copper, Zinc, Boron, Magnesium, Manganese, and Sulfur. I have a compost pile that is about 4 x 4 x 8 ft--I go through that entire pile in about 6 months adding 2-3 wheelbarrow loads a week.

supermario · 08-23-2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tx_Crinum

Oh and Bob,

Unless you have been following and reading all 80 posts, which I know is probably very difficult to see and do from your perch on that flagpole, it is understandable how you can be so ignorant as to my comments.

Bob, this thread actually "sprouted" from another one that got so heated it was closed for good. If you go back to the very first post of this thread, you will see the person responsible for the previous thread being closed, and of course, starting this one.

Previous thread: "Organic" Fertillizer

Here's a great quote from our friend organicbananac...probably the perfect example of what TX is upset about..

Quote:

Trust this one when i say i realize the proportion of land needed vs. land available to sustain a family, trust me. It is a sad, sad fact in America, of what we have done to this land (which WAS stolen from the NATIVE Americans). Who were respectful stewards, not materialism oriented, before the "settlers" came along. You also have proven my point of the solution to the problems we continue to create. We need overgrowth of PLANTS, the plants are the only things cleaning the air that we continue to pollute excessively, along with water and soil. The solution is easy, its here, but we are too arrogant and stubborn to allow nature to take its course and fix the problems. Because nature is...slow, and would take patience. (But nature WILL kill us if we dont stop, so...)

Anything GREEN, growing, sequestering carbon from the air, giving crisp, pure oxygen back IS THE SOLUTION, along with education.

More development, more concrete, more malls,more gas guzzlers, the throw away society, EMPTY neighborhoods of cookie cutters,etc,etc,etc.... is NOT THE SOLUTION.

But back to the sad state of the nation, I can not afford anything over my pathetic 1/4acre because I am near a concrete jungle. The price of land, once again, is just because we have the greedy individuals. More for them (useless money at that, HA!), at the cost of an arm and leg for me and you... I see much solution to this in the form of vertical gardening... ill go up as far as i want i guess. Or until code enforcement comes..

"Note that even if we were as efficient as the Mennonites, have a longer growing season, and included our mechanization: we don't have the land, water, or economy to use low-percentage nutrients; i.e., "natural" methods."

Now, i do understand your point here, but the problem does not originate with lack of land,water,or economy... it is the fact that so many are cowards not up to facing the fact that unless they are part of the solution, you ARE the problem. If you run around in your SUV,demanding you have a right to feed your 7 person family fruit from Costa Rica while you irrigate your acre of st augustine and azaleas... then im sorry to bust the bubble you must live in, but thats an example of THE PROBLEMS. Do these attitudes display any means of solution?
"Ohhhh yeah we recycle."
Well what about those two trash cans of brush you had the trashman come pick up? tsk tsk... its time we EDUCATE.
If every person would learn how to "almost" sustain their family on what they have, using the waste generated naturally by the cycle of life, there would be no need for "high percentage nutrients". The cycle of life,nature.. leaves us with the waste, which is up to us to use, or it goes to being non-productive for us humans.
Richard, its very obvious that you and I, are worlds apart. I see your points on many of these subject matters, and all I can say to you is that I understand your logic and where you come from. But where we are, and have been is not where we need to "go". Do you feel me?
Because I 110% agree with your concern of sustaining a food supply for the population. (being a diabetic since 6yrs old, i am concerned when there is not a jug of juice in the fridge in case my blood sugar were to become low) Now making sure the population understands we do not even have enough for all who are here, downright scary!

sbl · 08-23-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

There is only one L in my name. Thanks in advance.

SBL suggested that clay holds nutrients better so I thought that was what we were talking about, not the water retention of that product. Maybe you just wanted to post the name for more Google hits? Is this something you plan to sell or maybe already are?

There is no doubt that a truckload of clay would improve my garden soil, but a truckload of real clay would cost a lot since I had to pay $150 for a truckload of our local "red clay" (which is really red sand). The nearest real clay is probably hundreds of miles away. Even then that is not permanent as our heavy rainfall even washes the minerals out of that. Red clay roads here turn from red to orange to yellow orange over time as the minerals are washed out. I have added several buckets of "red clay" over the years and I am sure it has helped.

Eventhough we have lots of rain we do need to enhance water retention--it can rain 6 inches here in a day and the garden needs watering 3 to 4 days later.

permaculturekidd · 08-23-2009, 09:13 PM

You live near an ocean use seaweed; heavy mulching I would think helps prevent erosion so does the roots of plants.

The soil here is weird; heavy clay with little organic matter and little sand yet it drains very well. But it'll turn to a brick during the summer without proper mulching. Also wouldn't adding clay to sand or vice versa simply create an adobe when it drys?

supermario · 08-23-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by permaculturekidd

You live near an ocean use seaweed; heavy mulching I would think helps prevent erosion so does the roots of plants.

Not all fruit trees will produce well when heavily mulched. As a matter of fact, very few of them will produce well when mulched up to the trunk(pretty sure "heavy" mulch falls in that category). I learned this the hard way with citrus...as did Sbl. Here in FL, the humidity will kill most trees with too much mulch. Every climate has different requirements, so there never will be one solution for all!

Permaculturekidd, Your arguments are valid when talking about the fertile soils in the amazon...other than that...I think your point is lost. However, that is my opinion and I am in no way an expert.

sbl · 08-23-2009, 10:15 PM

We don't get much seaweed on the beach here-- some years there is a big raft of sargasum that washes ashore, but other than that 1 in 10 yr event the beaches here are pure sand with a few shells.

Mario is right about the mulch-- I do mulch most of my garden and trees--except citrus--they have bare ground under them after I lost several to root rot from mulching.

But mulch alone will not supply the nutrition needed for most plants. My blueberries are a good example of the problem here--my blueberries have a thick layer of mulch--at least 6 inches and I apply a new layer of several inches a yr. I also apply a little ammonium sulfate at bloom time and normally again in June (about 2 oz per tree) . This yr I ran out before I could make the June application--Ace Hardware was out as well, so I was not able to make the June application before the mid season growth spurt--the new growth is very yellow--the mulch has lost all of it's nutritional value.

08-23-2009, 08:47 AM	#81 (permalink)
momoese Banana grower momoese's Photo Gallery Find me on the map! Zone: zone 10 Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7,589 BananaBucks : 260 Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,747 Times Was Thanked 10,887 Times in 3,310 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 728 Times	Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic) SBL. if you were to truck in a mass amount of clay to mix with your sand what would happen?

08-23-2009, 09:13 PM	#98 (permalink)
permaculturekidd Location: Solano County Zone: Zone 9b Name: Lee Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 31 BananaBucks : 12,425 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 3 Times Was Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic) You live near an ocean use seaweed; heavy mulching I would think helps prevent erosion so does the roots of plants. The soil here is weird; heavy clay with little organic matter and little sand yet it drains very well. But it'll turn to a brick during the summer without proper mulching. Also wouldn't adding clay to sand or vice versa simply create an adobe when it drys?

08-23-2009, 10:15 PM	#100 (permalink)
sbl sbl's Photo Gallery Location: Pensacola, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 8/9 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,013 BananaBucks : 65,679 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 177 Times Was Thanked 731 Times in 395 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 154 Times	Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic) We don't get much seaweed on the beach here-- some years there is a big raft of sargasum that washes ashore, but other than that 1 in 10 yr event the beaches here are pure sand with a few shells. Mario is right about the mulch-- I do mulch most of my garden and trees--except citrus--they have bare ground under them after I lost several to root rot from mulching. But mulch alone will not supply the nutrition needed for most plants. My blueberries are a good example of the problem here--my blueberries have a thick layer of mulch--at least 6 inches and I apply a new layer of several inches a yr. I also apply a little ammonium sulfate at bloom time and normally again in June (about 2 oz per tree) . This yr I ran out before I could make the June application--Ace Hardware was out as well, so I was not able to make the June application before the mid season growth spurt--the new growth is very yellow--the mulch has lost all of it's nutritional value.

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