momoese

Much earlier in thread and you never replied to my response to it.

damaclese

can we all agree that we have are best interests at hart?
i for one respect each and every one of you. I don't need for you to agree or disagree for me to respect you all. Each one of you has brought to this table as it were your unique selfs and for that I'm really grateful. but i sure would like for you'll to see that in each other

I don't think any one at this point is going to convince the other of there position. I commend you all for trying but in the end is it so impotent to be right at the expense of another's feelings? are we a collective mind of spirit? or are we just like all the other garden forums were we kick each other mentally to death. what is this saying to are new Members?

Or are we going to have this thread deleted too?

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sbl

Minerals are only made by man in Nuclear Reactors--those would be way to expensive to use on gardens.

As for where I said what you believe I said--I could not find it in this entire thread.

Damaclese is right, we all have a common interest--growing plants. We each have different soils and climates to contend with, but if we pay attention and have an open mind we may just learn something new.

Richard

Composted organic plant and animal matter contains 2% or more water soluble chemical fertilizers by weight.

You're welcome (chagrin )

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permaculturekidd

I'm just talking about watering; after that the rains seem enough to water the rest of the plants. My grandmother planted a tree in her backyard a long time ago watered it for a little more than a year and quit since it seemed by the end of winter the plant was doing well on its own.


So towith many other trees; there are little almond trees a few feet high that surround the older trees they are only a decade to a few years old with no human intervention at all. Under the highways, out in the sticks, in the creeks, downtown, etc... many edible trees that came to be eithier with human intervention decades ago or the descendants of those trees with little or no help. Even at the abandoned side of school I see a few little trees growing with no one to care for them..

sbl

Pretty much all plants will survive and reproduce without human intervention--they evolved that way and wouldn't be here if they couldn't (with possible exceptions of some of our most highly domesticated plants). The difference is how much they will produce.

supermario

Exactly. My grandfather used to toss papaya seeds in the ground all the time and then forget about them. The trees would produce little to no fruit..and the little fruit it did produce...was tasteless.

momoese

Here ya go SBL. I was wrong, you said "almost impossible"

momoese

Your splitting hairs again and what, still no terminoligy for my growing method?

Richard

No I'm not, you just don't want to admit that the nutrients in the materials you apply contain chemicals.

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momoese

I'm not deniying it, and honestly I know nothing about it, just what you have said here. What I'm saying is I'm not going to the store and buying big bags of man made water soluble fert and adding pounds of it to my garden. Now please stop putting words in my mouth, again! jeez

sbl

This is the entire paragraph--my point in that statement was directed at the conditions here--and I did say unless you have a farm lot full of animals. That is because no matter what your source of nutrients is, here it is washed away quiclky. I probably add 50 to 100 wheelbarrow loads of organic material to my compost bed--most of that is then applied to my small garden--the soil is still mainly sand--analysis would probably indicate 5 to 8% organic.

Richard

I have said several times in this thread that no one (especially me) is trying to get you to change what you are doing.

At the same time, you have been very critical of people using water solubles fertilizers -- which we keep pointing out to you:
1. are not man made
2. are in the materials you apply in your garden
3. are no more toxic or synthetic than the beer, wine, (and rum?) that you drink.

Further, you keep arguing that there is a dichotomy between "chemical" fertilizers and "organic" fertilizers -- but this is not true. You also argue that there is a dichotomy between "natural" and "synthetic" fertilizers but this also is not true.

If you are looking for an accurate term that describes your methods, call it "gardening".

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momoese

Where in thread have I been critical of water soluble ferts? Because I choose not to use them or synthetic ferts that makes me a critic? That's some strange reasoning on your part. I think your being a little overly sensitive.

I have repeatedly stated that I understand there are organic chemical ferts. I just choose not to knowingly use them. If there are some (2% as you claim) in my composted organic chicken poop than so be it. It's the best I can do to make myself happy about the way I grow my garden. How many times do I need to say this to you? My choice not to use them is not a dichotomy, it's a personal choice. What's so hard to understand about that?

I'm tired of talking to you, I've said the same thing so many times it's just getting frustrating for me. I posted in this thread originally about the evils of the product Roundup and was able to prove my point. I'll leave it at that.

Richard

Actually Mitchel, you have stated over and over again that composted organic plant material does not contain water soluble chemical fertilizers. This is not true.

You have also stated that you have made these choices because to avoid health issues with "chemicals" -- which is a direct criticism and false dichotomy.

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Patty in Wisc

I will say that I use my compost AND water soluble chemical ferts such as miracle grow & banana fuel. I take it that when someone says they don't use 'water soluble chemical ferts', then they DON'T use this added chemical ferts.
Richard, why do you 'flame' people with useless information that you often times make up? You go out of your way to piss ppl off. Are you trying to get this thread locked like you've done before?

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turtile

When you call something a chemical, you're saying that it is substance which contains a certain chemical composition.

For example, if you take water the chemical H2O (water) from rain water or make it yourself through a reaction, the output is still the chemical H2O. Therefore, the chemical H2O is a chemical regardless of the source. The same goes for every type of fertilizer. Regardless of source, they are all chemicals.

It is important to use science when discussing this type of subject. Without science, you're going to end up with a bunch of opinions that will lead nowhere.

There is no difference between what the plant takes up between "chemical" fertilizer and "organic" fertilizer.

For example, nitrogen is taken up mainly in the form of NH4+ (Ammonium) and NO3- (Nitrate) with very little taken up as (NH2)2CO (Urea). These chemicals are the same whether they come from organic material or if they are applied with a "chemical" fertilizer.

In the end, you end up with the same exact thing. There is nothing toxic about "chemical" fertilizer.

Basically, "chemical" fertilizers just contain highly concentrated forms of fertilizer. They directly provide nutrients to the plant and the soil. They also give you the ability to give the plants nutrients when the plant needs them.

Organic matter improves many aspects of the soil but it also can do harm when overused. Like I've mentioned many times, much of the fertilizer goes unused since the nutrients are provided in the ratio required for the plant (or never required in the first place. Organic material also tends to be acidic which can have negative impacts on plants requiring higher pH soils. Copper is also locked up by organic material.




"Chemical" fertilizer will be taken up by soil organisms. They will take it up much easier than plant roots. "Chemical" fertilizer feeds both the plant and the "soil".

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momoese

You mean organic materials are broken down by soil organisms into usable chemical salts that the plants can use? Yes that's true.

sbl

Well said Turtile!

I used to work on a commercial dairy and I can tell you there are things in manure that you would not want on your food, I'm not saying it is all bad but you should know your source.

If you want to see that warning from a different source try this Environmental News article:Livestock Antibiotics Can End Up in Human Foods

turtile

Yes, soil organism are made of these chemicals. The elements must be present in the first place for them to exist. When the carbon level becomes too high, soil organisms will lock up nutrients such as nitrogen.

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