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Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer This forum is an area where you may discuss the soil to grow banana plants in, as well as soil additives such as teas, composts, manures, fertilizers and related topics.


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Old 08-23-2009, 10:39 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

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But mulch alone will not supply the nutrition needed for most plants. My blueberries are a good example of the problem here--my blueberries have a thick layer of mulch--at least 6 inches and I apply a new layer of several inches a yr. I also apply a little ammonium sulfate at bloom time and normally again in June (about 2 oz per tree) . This yr I ran out before I could make the June application--Ace Hardware was out as well, so I was not able to make the June application before the mid season growth spurt--the new growth is very yellow--the mulch has lost all of it's nutritional value.
Seems VERY similar to my Jaboticaba trees. Imagine...they are native to Brazil of all places...probably some of the most fertile soil on earth! My jaboticaba trees have several inches of mulch while all my other trees(other than banana) have the mulch no closer than 1 FT from the trunk. Anyways....

MY comparisson may be out of line since blueberries come from up north...but, we are both attempting to grow things out of our natural area... so kudos to us right?

I tried growin 'Navajo' blackberries and did not like the taste as opposed to store bought berries. I figured it's because the variety I had was made to grow in my area, not for it's taste, but for it's ability to survive... So, How do you like your blueberries compared to store bought ones?

Be honest now!

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Old 08-24-2009, 07:26 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

I have 17 varieties of blueberries, some that produce as early as late april to as late as late July. Variety has a lot to do with flavor, but another major factor is timing--they get sweeter and sweeter after they turn and are best just before they start to shrivle. Climate can also influence taste--a moderately dry season will produce the best flavor--a really wet season will cause splitting if they are left on after they ripen. Love my blueberries--my favorite fruit!

BTW Mario, UF has developed some very low chill blueberries that might grow in your area, but I am sure you would have to lower the pH of your soil--they like pH 4.5-5.

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Old 08-24-2009, 06:26 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

I would so love to grow Blue Barries but have not tried as my soil PH here is 7.5 are soil is 80% gypsum i mostly take it out of the planting holes an throw it away I've tried amending it but i just cant get the Ph below 6.9 and thats with 4 applications of sulfur and iron a year hardly seems worth it

I know try Potting them up! i could but with the water at a firm 7.0 PH id have to correct every time i watered again it just seems its not meant to be

so in the end i have to learn to like what grows in my neck of the woods or should i say Cati LOL
At least i have Bananas Right?
it accrues to me that when one is talking soil theirs just so much you can do to affect the native soils there are many factors as to why a particular soil is the way it is water seems to me to be the biggest influences as to Ph at least its hard to change something if your are continually give inputs that are contrary to your goal
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:14 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

That is very true Damaclese, soils are the result of a lot of different geological, biological, chemical and physical factors including climate. To get the most out of your particular soils requires knowledge and experimentation. The best way to get that knowledge is from a good gardener that has experience with that type of soil, but it is always rewarding to try something new that works. When it comes to pH, in general it is very hard to fight an uphill battle--especially with calcarous soils.
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:10 PM   #105 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Citrus grow like weeds here; there are literally thousands of citrus trees all over the city, alot not even taken care of but are totally massive.

I read books of fruit trees and people say to water and feed them monthly; which is mind boggling since trees over here don't need water past the first year and after that they can stand the summer droughts tell late september with weather going into the 90's and 100's during late July to mid-Aug every year.

Feeding them fertilizer is even weirder; there are massive trees atleast 4 or 5 decades old in downtown that dump fruit year after year like mad. No one tends to alot of trees in town; were formerly orchard country so walnuts, almonds, citrus, stone fruit; etc... thrive once established all by themselves(a year to 3)

I guess its the soil here; alot of things grow extremely well and there is no need for the miraclegro-type stuff (unless you a flower gardener or your really looking to push the limits of fruiting).
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:16 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

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... miraclegro-type stuff ...
A phrase so broad it is vacuous.

Miracle-Gro is a brand name, not an attribute. For example, there are several manufacturers who produce 50-lb bags of certified-organic granular soil conditioner for commercial agriculture from sea-kelp, grain meal, humates, plus a bit of dolomite or similar for buffer. The Scotts Miracle-Gro company is one of them.
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Old 08-25-2009, 12:53 AM   #107 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

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A phrase so broad it is vacuous.
I do enjoy your zingers Your speak reminds me of a good friend of mine

But seriously I have actually learned something from reading this thread... plus all the statements made, claims dispelled, hyperbole debunked, accusations thrown, etc. make it all worthwhile

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle of this spectrum of "natural" vs synthetic. I'm starting out with a clay soil about the consistency of a brick. I can't tell you how many cubic feet of compost I've bought in an effort to add some organic material and break up da clay (not to mention bags of steer manure, sand, etc.)... Seeing as how some of my bananas seemed a little nutrient deprived I bought some 13-13-13. I've only added a very small amount to each plant as I didn't want to overdo it, kinda wanted to ease into it. Going entirely natural or "organic" does appeal to me as I do have a 2.5-year old that will hopefully be eating bananas from our backyard within the next couple of years, so I wanna do right by him.... but I also minored in chemistry, so I've got a special place in my heart for synthetics I guess like most people I'll find myself somewhere in between until my soil is enriched enough to Go Green
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:21 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

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I do enjoy your zingers Your speak reminds me of a good friend of mine

But seriously I have actually learned something from reading this thread... plus all the statements made, claims dispelled, hyperbole debunked, accusations thrown, etc. make it all worthwhile

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle of this spectrum of "natural" vs synthetic. I'm starting out with a clay soil about the consistency of a brick. I can't tell you how many cubic feet of compost I've bought in an effort to add some organic material and break up da clay (not to mention bags of steer manure, sand, etc.)... Seeing as how some of my bananas seemed a little nutrient deprived I bought some 13-13-13. I've only added a very small amount to each plant as I didn't want to overdo it, kinda wanted to ease into it. Going entirely natural or "organic" does appeal to me as I do have a 2.5-year old that will hopefully be eating bananas from our backyard within the next couple of years, so I wanna do right by him.... but I also minored in chemistry, so I've got a special place in my heart for synthetics I guess like most people I'll find myself somewhere in between until my soil is enriched enough to Go Green
I think you have it exactly right. You feed the soil organic matter--it greatly improves the soil properties. You feed the plant fertilizer--there is nothing in triple 13 that is toxic when taken up by your plants.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:33 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

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I think you have it exactly right. You feed the soil organic matter--it greatly improves the soil properties. You feed the plant fertilizer--there is nothing in triple 13 that is toxic when taken up by your plants.
Not that there is anything wrong with triple 13, but I will say it again that organic matter like chicken, cow, horse manure, gauno, blood meal, alphalpha meal, etc etc etc, does feed the soil and the plant. Is it as fast acting as trple 13, no it's not, but does it feed the plants and the soil, yes it does. It took years of adding organic matter to my hard packed clay to get the soil I have now, it's not an overnight process. When I first planted I mixed 50/50 with the existing soil. Again I'm not looking down on your choice of chemical fert, just your matter of fact statements that are not true.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:43 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Not that there is anything wrong with triple 13, but I will say it again that organic matter like chicken, cow, horse manure, gauno, blood meal, alphalpha meal, etc etc etc, does feed the soil and the plant. Is it as fast acting as trple 13, no it's not, but does it feed the plants and the soil, yes it does. It took years of adding organic matter to my hard packed clay to get the soil I have now, it's not an overnight process. When I first planted I mixed 50/50 with the existing soil. Again I'm not looking down on your choice of chemical fert, just your matter of fact statements that are not true.
So what have I said that you believe is not true?
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:55 AM   #111 (permalink)
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So what have I said that you believe is not true?

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You feed the soil organic matter--it greatly improves the soil properties. You feed the plant fertilizer
This above qouted statement from you is phrased in such a way that it sounds matter of fact. Nowhere do you mention that organic matter breaks down and feeds the plants. This whole idea of yours that "you have to give the plant comercial fert" is just not true, I don't how else to put it to you. Again I don't care if you or someone else wants use the fert of your choice, but please stop with the missleading matter of fact statements.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:59 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

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That is very true Damaclese, soils are the result of a lot of different geological, biological, chemical and physical factors including climate. To get the most out of your particular soils requires knowledge and experimentation. The best way to get that knowledge is from a good gardener that has experience with that type of soil, but it is always rewarding to try something new that works. When it comes to pH, in general it is very hard to fight an uphill battle--especially with calcarous soils.
What more could i or any one add to that "so true" what iv learn so far about gardening in my particular part of the world is that its important to remove a good portion of the native soil its such a toxic substance adding tones of organics i add lots of bio char and microsomal as well as trace minerals in the form of Kelp this has been as successfully a formula as i have ever used so I'm sticking to it until something comes along better how ever i still have to apply fertilizers many times more often then most of you. do to the 3 times a day water cycle i have to maintain to keep my plants from burning up and yes i mulch were appropriate not on my citrus i think you would be surprised at the success I've had with my Bananas sure they don't grow as fast as they would in a more tropical environment but they don't do as badly as one would imagine how ever throw experimentation i have found that organic firt just isn't powerfully enough to over come that water cycle but i still use it along with additions of the man mad stuff in a perfect world id go all organic but I'm just one man fighting a climate that has been known to drive certain people madd but I'm always up for advice on the subject and love learning so keep on posting
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:24 AM   #113 (permalink)
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This whole idea of yours that "you have to give the plant comercial fert" ...
One way to avoid commercial fertilizer is to go out to the public lands (deserts, mountains) and collect the minerals yourself.

Seriously Mitchell, your attempts to create a dichotomy between "organic" and "commercial" seem very strange to me. There is a tremendous amount of overlap.
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:36 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Feeding them fertilizer is even weirder; there are massive trees atleast 4 or 5 decades old in downtown that dump fruit year after year like mad. No one tends to alot of trees in town; were formerly orchard country so walnuts, almonds, citrus, stone fruit; etc... thrive once established all by themselves(a year to 3)
There is no tree that will be established in 1 year. Mangos grow insanely fast and are not considered mature until at least 5years! You stated yourself that your area was formerly orchard country..That means those trees were nurtured up until they were abandoned after 15-20 years! The only trees you will see producing with little to no care are just that...decade old trees that were once used for agricultural production.

There are many sapodilla trees lining the road in Coral Gables. They were planted for looks and were cared for as such. They are over a century old and have not produced any fruit in the 30 years I've been around.
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:53 AM   #115 (permalink)
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This above qouted statement from you is phrased in such a way that it sounds matter of fact. Nowhere do you mention that organic matter breaks down and feeds the plants. This whole idea of yours that "you have to give the plant comercial fert" is just not true, I don't how else to put it to you. Again I don't care if you or someone else wants use the fert of your choice, but please stop with the missleading matter of fact statements.
I did not say that "organic matter does not break down and feed plants", you just believe I implied it--you can believe anything--I cannot control your mind. I never said "you have to give a plant commercial fertilizer", but my experience has shown me that they will grow much faster and are more productive. In my opinion, organic matter is more important for what it does to the soil, not what nutrients it provides. Some of the plants I grow do not like rich organic soils--citrus and periwinkle, some prefer it --blueberries and bananas, but all of them do better with commercial fertilizer in my experience.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:03 AM   #116 (permalink)
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One way to avoid commercial fertilizer is to go out to the public lands (deserts, mountains) and collect the minerals yourself.

Seriously Mitchell, your attempts to create a dichotomy between "organic" and "commercial" seem very strange to me. There is a tremendous amount of overlap.
Richard, you need to pay attention to what's being said and by whom in this thread. It is SBL who said he was referring to chemical ferts when he said commercial fert. I asked him directly if that's what he meant and he said yes. I'm doing my best to communicate with him using his terminology. As I said dirrectly to you Richard in another thread, I understand that some commercial ferts are organic. I do actually pay attention unlike people around here.

Now please stop putting words in my mouth and would you also please stop misspelling my name. It's not much to ask for and I've asked you several times. Show a tiny bit of respect please!
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:05 AM   #117 (permalink)
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I did not say that "organic matter does not break down and feed plants", you just believe I implied it--you can believe anything--I cannot control your mind. I never said "you have to give a plant commercial fertilizer", but my experience has shown me that they will grow much faster and are more productive. In my opinion, organic matter is more important for what it does to the soil, not what nutrients it provides. Some of the plants I grow do not like rich organic soils--citrus and periwinkle, some prefer it --blueberries and bananas, but all of them do better with commercial fertilizer in my experience.
Ok, are you really going to make go and fetch your quote proving that you said it? I'm growing tired of you guys spinning this.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:10 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Richard, you need to pay attention to what's being said and by whom in this thread.
Mitchel, I have been paying attention to what you are saying in this thread and throughout this site. You consistantly push for a dichotomy of "organic" vs. "commercial", "organic" vs. "chemical", etc. No such dichotomy exists -- there is a tremendous amount of overlap.

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Old 08-25-2009, 11:25 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Ok, are you really going to make go and fetch your quote proving that you said it? I'm growing tired of you guys spinning this.
This is my quote--
"I think you have it exactly right. You feed the soil organic matter--it greatly improves the soil properties. You feed the plant fertilizer--there is nothing in triple 13 that is toxic when taken up by your plants."

Where did I say "organic matter does not feed the plant some nutrients" --Where did I say "you have to feed them commercial fertilizer". I have said they will be more productive with commercial fertilizer, but I have also always said that organic matter is good for most plants--but there are some that do not like it.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:26 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Richard, I've stated over and over what I use in my garden. It's all organic material that's derived from composted organic plant and animal matter with no water soluble chemical ferts or synthesized ferts. I also apply minerals that have been mined by man, not made by man. Now if you'd like to come up with a terminoligy for this type of gardening I'd be more than happy to use it.

And thanks for spelling my name correctly, I do appreciate it.
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