Caloosamusa

What observable differences are there that we can notice to determine which subspecies of yunnanensis we have without knowing where in China it is from?

Markku Hakkinen

Hi,

It is too long subject to explain it here. The first notable question is if the plant / seeds are correctly identified. It is very common here that seed collectors just collecting seeds what are available. Secondly it is quite difficult to find ripe fruits with seeds as they are already eaten by animals.

Markku.

Caloosamusa

Good morning Dr. Hakkinen,

The problems you state are known to us. That is the reason for the question. What morphological differences are there between the subspecies, such as petioles, petiole wings, petiole wing remanence, pseudostem thickness or color, or lack of, waxyness of petioles, arrangement of flowers, bunch sizes and arrangements? The problems you've stated is why many of us are trying to identify what we do have.

Thank you for your attention to this matter, May you have Good weather and research, and may your findings or conclusions be accurate.

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Callomusa,

Do send your email address to me so I'll send the pdf article of M.yunnanensis varieties article after returning back to home. The article will answer to your questions and it contains many colour photos.

Markku.

Caloosamusa

Good afternoon Dr. Hakkinen,

I would like to thank you once again for sending me your research paper on Musa yunnanensis and its intraspecific taxa in China. It was very well written and informative.

After initially reading it I thought that mature petiole length would be the way to differentiate subspecies when not shooting. My largest mat however is not yet mature thus I could not make a good conclusion. I measured and documented the characteristics I could without taking off the outer layers of the pseudostem.

Leaf measurement


Pseudostem length


Leaf width


Pseudostem base color


Dorsal and ventral leaf surface color


Ventral and midrib


Petiole base waxyness


Growth habit


I think due to ventral and leaf surface differences that this may be M. y. yunnanensis. The color of the midrib ventral surface (pink) leads me to think it might be M. y. Caii. I'm not sure, I certainly have more information to think about. When it shoots I'll know for sure.

I'm sure you can identify it with just a few glances, Markku. Thank you again for the information and your attention.

penJ.

May i get that article too? I have mature mat of yunnanensis, pics to come. My seeds were collected in India, as the seed seller told me.

Caloosamusa

PenJ,

The paper would not help as Musa yunnanensis is a species of Banana from China. But just in case, what characteristics does it have in common with the ones I've posted?

This may help. Good growing to you.

penJ.

Here are some older pictures. Only difference with your yunnanensis is that mine have less colouration on upper part of petioles and are much much bigger in every way. This summer the biggest one gain a hight of over 6meters.

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Caloomusa,

There are so many intermediate variation in M.yunnanensis which should be be considered as forms but then the clasification is coming too complicated.

You should note that my classification is based on fully mature plants, inflorescenses and ripe fruits. Also I have compared many separate populations together. There are many forms with pink midrib in var. cai and var. yongingensis but never in var. yunnanensis.

The only way is to wait when the plant is flowering as we don't know from where theseeds are collected.

Markku.

Caloosamusa

Thank you Dr. Hakkinen,

May good weather and good research be yours.

Markku Hakkinen

Hi,

I have released the article copyrights to Wiley which is common method with the scientific papers.
This means that these articles are not public domain and I can't release them to public circulation.
I am now in Hong Kong and after returning back to Finland I can make a short list of differences between of each variety.
One has to take also into consideration that populations might vary due to envirommental, growing, climate conditions, etc.
For this reason it is most important to study as many populations as possible.

Markku.

Caloosamusa

Good morning Dr. Hakkinen,

From your paper both caii and jingdongensis have mature petiole lengths of 50cm, and yongpingensis a mature petiole length of 80 cm. Yunnanensis petiole length was not noted as it was not part the INIBAP Musa descriptor list. The color descriptions of medium green, light green, and pale green, I had recognition trouble with, (my problem). :-) !!

I have another smaller yunnanensis purchased from Agri-starts as Musa "iterans" which does not handle the summer heat at an altitude of less than 2 meters above mean sea level very near the southwest Florida coast. If in the future you need Ex situ lowland data on these, I will be happy to provide it!

May your efforts and conclusions be blessed. Good weather and good research to you Markku. Thank you once again!

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Caloosamusa,
It is evening here. We are 12 hours ahead of you.
This description was published at Novon 17(4):2007:
"Plant normal, suckering freely, close to parent plant, 1 or 2 suckers, position vertical; the mature pseudostem to 5 m high, covered with old brown leaf sheaths, underlying color light green with purple-black blotches, waxy, sap watery. Petiole to 70 cm, waxy, petiole margins curved inward with purple-black sparse blotching, petiole bases winged and clasping the pseudostem, very waxy; leaf habit intermediate, lamina to 250 6 60 cm, narrowly elliptic, truncate at the apex, green adaxially, medium green abaxially, appearance dull, surface partially covered with a waxy coating, leaf bases symmetric, both sides rounded and auriculate, midrib dorsally light green, ventrally greenish yellow, with very corrugated lamina."
M.itinerans you can easily distinquish from M.yunnanensis from looking petiole base as it in the first mentioned waxless. See your photo up!
Markku.

eric27

Caloosamusa,

I just wanted to agree with you. The article by Dr. Hakkinen is very informative and great reading, along with being well researched. In the pictures you posted, the last one the leaves seem to take on an orange cast. Is that the color of the leaves or the sun through the leaves. I ask because the plant I posted originally that you commented on (thanks again!) seems simialr to yours, only much smaller. It is the first one I have seen that also has so much color on the psudeostem. After reading the article I also suspected mine might also be y. var caii. But thanks to Dr. Hakkinen comments it probably is a case of variation within the speices. Although it is nice to know it probably is not M. yunannensis var yunannensis and one of the subs, even if it is a variation. What throws me off is the very dark markings on the top midrib, dark purple to almost black. On a newer leaf some of the color is even bleeding into the leaf surface. Does yours have any of this?

Eric

Caloosamusa

My yunnanensis suffered fertilizer toxicity in August when it was also greatly stressed by the heat. It stop putting out new leaves and just stopped growing. No growth occurred for a month and a half until we got our first cold spell which dropped night-time temperatures into the 60s(F) and mid 80s(F) for daytime highs. The yunnanensis and itinerans responded well and began growing again. The new leaves are normal and not "fertilizer burned."

My larger yunnanensis does not have the dark purple color on the dorsal midrib if I remember correctly, I will check and photo document that tomorrow.

I don't remember covering "corrugated lamina" in my Botany class, or any lamina for that matter, what is that?

Also on mine the purple-black splotching is not sparse, and is very abundant, while the petiole wings are strongly clasping.

Is the Novon description for M. y. yunnanensis or a general M. yunnanensis descriptor?

Thanks to both of you for your observations and direction!

Markku Hakkinen

Caloosamusa,

In your photo from the leaf you can see quite corrugated lamina. When I am back in Finland I can post for you some photos of different charactreristics of M.yunnannensis.
The Novon description is for the type specimen for which all the other varieties must be compared.

Markku.

Caloosamusa

Thank you Dr. Hakkinen!

Caloosamusa

My number one Yunnanensis is enjoying the spring weather. Some very recent rain during what is normally a dry spring has spurred new growth.

I purchased this from Banana-Tree as Musa itinerans variety gigantea, even though it is not the stated species, it is still a very desirable species that should produce viable pollen and be an excellent prodgenator.

eric27

It looks great! I'm jealous. My regular yunn I left out side for the winter didn't make it, but they were small. Oh well, I'll try again. Your pic inspires me.

Those I left out didn't have that dark petiole that yours have . I do have one just like the one in your pic (previous post yuo commented on). I pulled that one and brought it in. Using Dr Hakkinen's article he gave us I think it might be one of the subspices. I forget which one now I have to look at it again. When I dug it up it had a purple base, also noted on the subspecies in his article. Did you have any thoughts on this Caloosamusa? Our two plants look different than regular yunn that I have seen.

Markku Hakkinen

This is an intermediate variety between M.yunnanensis and var. caii. The colorful parts and waxiness are due to high elevation, some 2 Km.
Markku.