Yug

Don't have to be a 'zealot' when one is merely using facts (you know, evidence) rather than a concensus of 'scientists' (most of which didn't even work in the meterological field, and ones that are in the field have a vested interest ($$) in saying what they are saying - the politicians make $$, gain more control via a global 'carbon' tax that they can skim off of, and in turn spread the wealth to the 'scientists that are doing their bidding)

harveyc

Al Gore is a zealot. Why hasn't he reduced his carbon footprint?

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caliboy1994

Facts. Facts, huh? Last time I checked, more facts point to a warming trend than facts that point to otherwise. Like, you know, the temperature record. Not to mention the fact that my very area is going through a record drought.
(about 6 inches of rain so far this year compared to 15 on average).



And you're right. Climate scientists aren't meteorologists. They're people who study long-term climate patterns rather than short-term weather, which is what meteorologists study. Two COMPLETELY different things. And you know what? A lot of the stuff that they have been warning us about for a long time is becoming reality. More frequent tropical storms (i.e. the three simultaneous typhoons in the Indian Ocean this year, which I don't recall ever happening before in recorded history), more extreme weather conditions (droughts, shifting
in the jet streams causing the recent Arctic cold fronts, etc.), and overall rises in temperatures (see the recent unprecedented heat waves in Australia and Europe). Not to mention the fact that the volume and extent of Arctic sea ice has declined rapidly over the past half a century, and that sea level rise has already been observed. If you seriously think that something isn't awry here, then it's quite clear to me that there is a very big rift between what you believe and what the reality is.

And now, you question the motives of the scientists themselves, huh? Don't forget that the same scientific method that climate change researchers use to draw their conclusions is also the reason why you have a computer and the Internet. Without it, you would not be typing on this forum right now. In fact, not only would this forum and computers not exist, we would still be in the Middle Ages. In the meantime, you put your trust in people like Anthony Watts, who are not even climate scientists, who are paid handsomely by big oil and big business to spread disinformation and outright lie to the public about climate change. Seems a bit hypocritical, doesn't it?

__________________
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
~ Masanobu Fukuoka

Find me on linktree here as Solarpunk Farmer:
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Funkthulhu

This is a strange inside-out version of "appeal to authority" fallacy of argument. Instead of saying something is true because experts say it is, you have instead tried to weaken the position by undermining the expertise of the consensus group. You have attempted to do this by including people not actually in the group with the expertise and linking their motivations to politics and/or money.

Also, it is funny to me that so far only those "against" global warming feel targeted by the word zealot. Even though, taken in context, it is not directed at either viewpoint.

Lastly, a bit of fact to float you through your day...

"According to NOAA scientists, the globally-averaged temperature over land and ocean surfaces for November 2013 was the highest for November since record keeping began in 1880. It also marked the 37th consecutive November and 345th consecutive month (more than 28 years) with a global temperature above the 20th century average. The last below-average November global temperature was November 1976 and the last below-average global temperature for any month was February 1985."

__________________
"Ph'nglui musaglw'nanna Funkthulhu R'Omahaea wgah'basjoo fhtagn"
"In his house at Omaha, dread Funkthulhu plants bananas."

CountryBoy1981

I am not disagreeing that the earth has been warming, but so has Mars. Why is it that humans are to blame for the melting of the ice caps on earth but not for the CO2 ice caps melting on Mars? Why was it warmer on earth prior to the black plague than it is now and the earth didn't end? Why did the scientist try to stop global cooling in the 70s and were wrong on the science but nobody questions them?

momoese

Bottom line is the global weather patterns ARE changing and becoming erratic. This is NOT good for humans. Should we continue to turn a blind eye or should we look for a solution that will hopefully allow for future generations to inhabit this planet?

CountryBoy1981

The warmer weather actually was good for humans pre-black plague. The warmer temperatures brought longer growing seasons which in turn allowed for more food to be grown. The climate changes all the time and it has been much warmer at times than it is now.

Every so many years there is a crisis that you need the scientists and government to protect you from (more taxes and funding). There was global cooling, y2k, and now global warming to name a few.

momoese

So basically you just don't give a s h i t what happens down the road. It's all about now and who's right and wrong, and much tax you spend. The Cabal loves you.

CountryBoy1981

I never said I didn't care. I said that the earth was much warmer before than it is now and it had a positive effect. There weren't SUV's being driven around pre-medieval times and in the of the Romans. It is cyclical, the weather on the earth changes from ice ages to periods of warmth. If we were going into an ice age I would be concerned as that results in many people starving from a lack of food and freezing from a lack of shelter. The warmer periods bring longer growing seasons and more food for people to eat across the globe.

If there were people that you should be appalled at it should be Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi. Both of these people are pushing global warming. Either they are lying to your face or they are the worst of monsters on Earth. If Nancy Pelosi really believed in global warming do you believe she would be flying on a private jet back and forth to California every time she goes? She either doesn't believe in global warming or she doesn't give a crap that her private jet use is contributing to the death of the planet. Al Gore uses 20 times more electricity than the average U.S. citizen.

I don't believe in global warming at least in the sense that humans are causing it. Gore and Pelosi at least state that they do. Which person should you be appalled by, the one who fires the gun who believes there are blanks in the chamber or the one who knows that there are real bullets in it and kills somebody?

CountryBoy1981

The computer models that scientists are relying on for global warming are starting to smoke when it comes to the antarctic ice caps.

harveyc

If CO2 is truly the culprit and government leaders are convinced of that, I'd much prefer to see policies that provide incentives to move away from energy sources that create CO2. Creating new taxes is not a solution, IMO. It creates new forms of bureaucracies and waste.

I was once invited to an international conference. There was a required $150 fee for "carbon offset" to supposedly help mitigate the impact of everyone from around the world flying there. If they really wanted to mitigate the impact, they would have just done an online conference. Those aren't as much fun as traveling to some other country but a webinar can be quite productive.

I've just had a 11 KwH solar system installed. Not because of some carbon tax that forced me to do it but because of tax incentives and future financial savings for energy costs.

A lot of people that want something done really seem to want someone else to change their way of living and to penalize industries they don't like. That sort of thinking needs to stop if any progress is going to be made, IMO.

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caliboy1994

I think a market-based solution would be more viable because it works with market forces rather than against them. Let's face it. We have a free market economy where supply and demand dictates all. So why not use that to our advantage?

We could start by getting rid of the massive subsidies that are currently being doled out to oil, coal, and natural gas. Especially with coal, these subsidies are the only reason why these fossil fuels are still competitive in the marketplace, with the exception of natural gas. Eliminate these subsidies and these sources of energy will simply be unable to compete with solar in just a few years' time. Solar is already cheaper than coal in Australia, and even recently solar-generated electricity has been sold for cheaper than coal-generated electricity in New Mexico.

And then of course we have to create positive market incentives for clean energy. California has been doing a good job with creating tax incentives for rooftop solar, but really it's not enough. Thorium-based nuclear has a lot of potential too, and we really need to invest in that. It has the capacity to power the whole country for a very long time.

Cap and trade worked really well for the Clean Air Act, and now our skies, especially in my area, are a lot cleaner than they were 30 years ago. Given that market forces would already be working against coal and oil if the subsidies are eliminated, I'm not even sure if cap and trade is required at all. Certainly not for coal.

Bottom line is that we need a huge economic transformation to make this work. It's already underway, but the problem is that it's not happening fast enough.

__________________
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
~ Masanobu Fukuoka

Find me on linktree here as Solarpunk Farmer:
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Funkthulhu

Really? You do realize that sea-ice extent and thickness increases with a drop in salinity, right? You also, I hope, realize that this is a result of the truely mind-boggling levels of fresh melt water coming off the continental ice sheet and making the surface waters around antarctica less salty? The continental-ice (y'know, the stuff that was on land but is now raising sea-level) is melting faster than it ever has in recorded history and the expansion of sea-ice is a direct result of that.

So, what are you smokin'?

__________________
"Ph'nglui musaglw'nanna Funkthulhu R'Omahaea wgah'basjoo fhtagn"
"In his house at Omaha, dread Funkthulhu plants bananas."

CountryBoy1981

The subsidies for oil and coal are a myth. By definition is a subsidy when the industry receives more money back from the government than it pays in taxes. A tax break on the other hand is when the company pays less money in taxes, but still pays taxes. The oil and coal companies receive the same tax breaks that other industries receive; it isn't specially handed out to those industries.

For the definition of a subsidy see General Electric:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/bu...d%253Dall&_r=0

Yug

The top seven global warming alarmist setbacks in 2013

Link to article

*excerpt*
The Senate testimony of Dr. Roger Pielke of the University of Colorado completely undercut environmentalists and Democrats trying to claim that global warming was causing “extreme weather.”

“It is misleading and just plain incorrect to claim that disasters associated with hurricanes, tornadoes, floods or droughts have increased on climate timescales either in the United States or globally,” Pielke said. “It is further incorrect to associate the increasing costs of disasters with the emission of greenhouse gases.”

The other witnesses on the panel did not refute Pielke’s data.
*end excerpt*

As has been seen time and time again, these 'extreme' sorts of terms, of which 'zealot' is one, have been used by the overwhelmingly leftest-sympathetic media to target those that are actually mainstream and down-to-earth, so the historical implication is that the non-lefty non-global-warming folk are again the target of imflammatory rhetoric.

My personal opinion (which never makes the main-stream-media) is that with all the inflammatory terms, and actual threats levied against those that are not in mind-numbed robotic lock-step with the global-warming cult - the real 'zealots' are all too obvious.

Funkthulhu

Go far enough right or left and you eventually curve around and fall into the same bottomless pit of crazy.

That being said, what you call "leftist-sympathetic" should really be called "center". True left is very rare anymore. The "left" as you call it has shifted so far right as to be the new center. They've done this almost on purpose in order to pick up all those abandoned by the "Right" that is running almost giddily toward the crazy pit.

I would love to see a new sub-party that is as far "left" as the teabaggers and simliar are to the "right". Then those of us in the middle could just sit back and eat popcorn while we watch our TVs explode. . .

(this ends our rambling political commentary, now back to Tom with sports!)

__________________
"Ph'nglui musaglw'nanna Funkthulhu R'Omahaea wgah'basjoo fhtagn"
"In his house at Omaha, dread Funkthulhu plants bananas."

Funkthulhu

Also:

"The Daily Caller is a politically conservative news and opinion website based in Washington, D.C., United States. Founded by Tucker Carlson, a libertarian conservative political pundit, and Neil Patel, former adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney" -wikipedia

Biased sources are worse then worthless because they cloud scientific arguement with political idealism...

__________________
"Ph'nglui musaglw'nanna Funkthulhu R'Omahaea wgah'basjoo fhtagn"
"In his house at Omaha, dread Funkthulhu plants bananas."

caliboy1994

Warmer weather is certainly not good in many ways. For the record, my area has received half the usual rainfall this year. Also, ever heard of desertification? Warming weather is going to exacerbate that, and turn millions of square miles of arable land into barren wastelands. It's already happening, and has been happening.

Sure, it will benefit some areas by increasing rainfall and growing seasons, like central Canada and the plains of Eastern Europe, but it will lay waste to others. The southeastern Great Plains are already running out of water (see depletion of the Ogallala Aquifer), and climate-change induced drought will make agriculture virtually impossible in the area in the coming decades. California is set to experience even hotter summers and further decreases in rainfall. This year was brutal enough in terms of drought, with massive wildfires occurring OUTSIDE the normal fire season. I don't ever remember wildfires happening in May and June in my lifetime. Warmer temperatures also cause warmer oceans, which causes sea level rise. And it will also cause tropical diseases like malaria and yellow fever to spread into subtropical and temperate regions. And then there are the positive climate feedbacks it can cause. That's a whole other story. If you want me to get into that I will.

I love how you continue to ignore the temperature record. At least CountryBoy seems to acknowledge that there is a warming trend. As I said before, this is not a political issue. We have the facts on our side. Raw data. Scientific studies. Statistics. What do you have? The inane ramblings of pundits and oil-funded "scientists" and the asinine squawking of conspiracy theorists. I really don't understand why people like you are so untrustworthy of science when it is what has given you all of the modern conveniences and technology that you take for granted today. And why you buy into that BS that is peddled by people with no credentials whatsoever. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Is there something I'm missing?

__________________
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
~ Masanobu Fukuoka

Find me on linktree here as Solarpunk Farmer:
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Richard

In the corporate world, Human Resource departments label such conversations (regardless of merit) as "pissing contests". The participants are relegated to positions outside of public interactions and on a much slower pay raise track.

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Back in business at plantsthatproduce.com

caliboy1994

Not Just the Koch Brothers: New Drexel Study Reveals Funders Behind the Climate Change Denial Effort | Now | Drexel University

In case you want to know who is bankrolling denialist efforts. This is a scientific study.

“The climate change countermovement has had a real political and ecological impact on the failure of the world to act on the issue of global warming,” said Brulle. “Like a play on Broadway, the countermovement has stars in the spotlight – often prominent contrarian scientists or conservative politicians – but behind the stars is an organizational structure of directors, script writers and producers, in the form of conservative foundations. If you want to understand what’s driving this movement, you have to look at what’s going on behind the scenes.”

__________________
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
~ Masanobu Fukuoka

Find me on linktree here as Solarpunk Farmer:
https://linktr.ee/solarpunkfarmer