Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

The basics of organic gardening is simple.
Organic gardening focuses on life in the soil, we "feed the soil".
Conventional gardening feeds the plant directly, it is the chemical salts the plants are actually consuming.
This is the distinction between the two. This is also the reason why feeding a 15-5-15 chemical salt, essentially broke the very first rule of organic gardening. That chemical salt is meant as nutrition for the plant, not nutrition for the life in the soil.
Anyone who tells you differently is wrong and is displaying a lack of education of the "soil food web".
The two systems do not compliment one another. It is very much a situation of trying to mix oil and water.
Nature is trying to work in one aspect, and humans are trying to work in "our" manmade aspect. Man created one system, nature has been doing its own system, without the need for human interaction... forever (roughly 2-3 billion years).
Organics is nature, everything else is not organic.
Old growth forests are great examples of this and why the need to "feed" plants is a fallacy.
Nobody ever poured chemical salts on those trees for nutrition, so where did this "food" come from that allowed such growth for all these years?
The answer to that question is a cycle of life, known as the soil food web.
Soil Foodweb, Inc. is a research lab with some excellent research materials. We will be discussing these materials from here on.

But for now, the dinner bell is ringing.
Class dismissed till we return.

Tonight's homework question is
"In the old growth forest, where did all the nutrition for 100's of years of growth come from?"

Garden Gnome is not the answer either ;)
:0519:

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Copied from the above mentioned site:

SOIL FOODWEB NEW YORK, INC.
THE LABORATORY MEASURING THE LIFE IN YOUR SOIL

-WE PROVIDE THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE SOIL TESTING IN THE
WORLD TODAY, LOOKING AT SOIL BIOLOGY then we...
-HELP YOU CREATE THE BEST POSSIBLE SOIL CONDITIONS FOR YOUR PLANTS.
-DEVELOP AN EASY TO FOLLOW PROGRAM FOR YOUR PLANT CARE.
-WORK WITH YOU TO REDUCE OR ELIMINATE INORGANIC APPLICATIONS, AND SAVE YOU MONEY.
-HELP YOU SELECT THE CORRECT PRODUCTS TO GET YOU THE BEST RESULTS.

HOW DO WE DO IT?

-WE USE SPECIALIZED MICROSCOPES, EQUIPMENT AND METHODS TO TAKE A MORE COMPLETE LOOK AT YOUR SOIL THAN ANY OTHER LAB.
-WE PERFORM DIRECT COUNTS OF YOUR SOIL MICROBES.
-SOIL FOODWEB LABS HAVE AN EVOLVING DATABASE CURRENTLY CONSISTING OF OVER 100,000 SOIL BIOLOGY SAMPLES FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
-WE COMPARE YOUR SOIL TEST RESULTS TO SOILS WHERE YOUR PLANT SPECIES ARE GROWING IN HIGHLY PRODUCTIVE OR NATIVE ECOSYSTEMS. THIS INFORMATION IS THEN USED TO SHAPE A SOIL PROGRAM TO CORRECT
IMBALANCES.

So your source material is a company profile? Do you own stock in them as well?..or just a pitchman?

I'm reporting you to the principal! :p

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

At a dilution of 100ppm to 1000ppm (0.1%), a chelated 20-5-5 also feeds the soil, benefits the microbial life, and causes no harm to the soil or plants.

??? Epsom salts and Potassium Nitrate are both chemical salts, and both are found in the chelated 20-5-5 I use.

"Organic" is a very interesting term. Motor oil distilled from crude oil with no synthetics added is 100% Organic.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Glad everyone can make it tonight.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Lagniappe,
A low dose for feeding beneficials is irrelevant. The reason is, people applying chems are not focused on the soil food web, but feeding the plant, the exact reason the chemicals, directly available to the plant, are used.
This is again the first rule, being broken.
If your soil food web is correct, there would be no need for the application of a directly available nutrient.
These quick fixes are always at the expense of something else.

One of the things I recently researched was that low doses of chemical nutrients are more beneficial to the "bad" microbiology rather than the "good". (Hence the reason problems appear and require something else to fix it, in conventional ag.) There is that distinction and when we start to talk about microbes, we want the good guys. E Coli is a good example of microbiology I personally would rather avoid.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Matt,
The materials you are advocating contain the same low doses of the same chemicals you are criticizing.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Organicbananac,

I'm just curious as to what products the "soil foodweb" usually recommends..? Have you used/purchased any?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

The below info is copied and pasted from a web site that apparently reviews gardening books..

----Why Natural Gardening?
The scientific definition of “organic” is a compound that contains carbon. The term organic as it is used today has strayed far from the scientific designation. Both synthetically produced and naturally produced compounds contain carbon. Only naturally occurring compounds can be called organic. However, what most people do not understand, and what the book helps explain, is that a product labeled as organic or natural is not necessarily safer (food or chemicals) or more nutritious (food) than a synthetically produced product.

The Truth about Organic Gardening helps gardeners understand how to choose products that have low environmental impacts and are relatively safe for humans, plants and animals. Some of these products are organic, some are synthetic. Gillman presents an explanation and description of each product or technique and then gives a summary of the products benefits, drawbacks and the bottom line (final conclusion). He describes products and processes, helping the gardener understand how natural fertilizers, watering techniques, planting plans, and more can work together for a safe, natural gardening process.----

The above review is of a book called "The Truth About Organic Gardening" by Jeff Gillman.

I have never read, nor am I promoting Jeff Gillman's book. Just pointing out how to properly reference educational material.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Rather than Oil vs. Water, a better metaphor for my practices are (a) a healthy person who walks casually each day for exercise, vs. (b) a healthy tri-athlete who trains for and competes in triathelons. The casual walker eats a healthy 1200 to 1800 calories per day, while the triathlete consumes a healthy 3000 or more calories per day just to match their activity level.

Ornamental plants comprise about 1% of what I grow. I "feed the soil" to keep them healthy. The other 99% are production fruit and vegetables. From them I require vigorous output. I not only feed the soil to keep them healthy but also feed them additional nutrients to match their activity level.

In contrast, my friend Pete (Lagniappe) is not interested in high production levels from his fruit plants. He feeds them very little. The plants are very happy and produce sufficient fruit for him. I'm all for it.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Soil microbes need the same "toxic Chemicals" as the plants do--Yes they need N to make protein, P to process energy just like plants --in addition they only release them to the plants when they die! That is why it is not recommended to add organic carbon rich materials directly to your plants--the soil microbes will take up all the available nutrients faster than the plant. That is why it is best to compost the organic material and let the microbes take up the available nutrients and then run out and start to die--therefore releasing nutrients for the plants and new microbes.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Okay, the answer to this question is Plant Succession. Old growth forest represent approx 150 years of different plant life from annual to perennials to shrubs to pines to hardwoods. The nutrition for an old growth forest came from years and years of death of plants. There was no feeding of the soil but rather a plant war was waged and those that could not successfully compete died and were replaced by more adapted plants.

And doing it I might say very slowly and very inefficiently. Without the advent of 'syntheitc' fertilizer we would be a 3rd world country based on subsistence farming. 'Synthetic' fertilizer allowed our country to move from an agrarian to an industrialized society. Take a look at 3rd world countries today. Like it or not, without 'synthetic' fertilizer and the resulting high yield acre production, that would be our normal standard of living. Anyone who tells you differently is wrong and is displaying a lack of education of our nation's agricultural history



I disagree. As a science teacher and an Ag Teacher the last time I checked there were only 20 man made or truly synthetic elements listed on the periodic table. For you benefit here they are: technetium (Tc), promethium (Pm), neptunium (Np), plutonium (Pu), americium (Am), curium (Cm), berkelium (Bk), californium (Cf), einsteinium (Es), fermium (Fm), mendelevium (Md), nobelium (No), lawrencium (Lr), unnilquadium (Unq), unnilpentium (Unp), unnilhexium (Unh), unnilseptium (Uns), unniloctium (Uno), unnilennium (Une), unununium (Uun). Now when my granular 5-10-10 contains one of these elements I will agree that I am feeding inorganic nutrition to my plants. Inorganic or synthetic fertilizer is nothing more than organic fertilizer without filler. Nothing in granular fertilizer is created, it may be recombined into another form but everything in that bag had its origin from the Earth from either a dead plant or animal.

No matter the form of fertilizer provided, plants and fungus can take up only certain types of N-P. Nitrogen must be in the form of nitrate, ammonium or urea and urea only falls loosely into the classification of organic fertilizer and phosphorus must be in of the form of orthophosphate ions.

To each his own. personally I am not willing to purchase over a ton of organic fertilizer every year and lug a whole bag of it to each banana plant. I don't feel bad because I am not buying the roly poly and worms their high priced meals. I would much rather fill my 5 gallon Homer bucket up with 20lbs of granular and be done with it.

IMO, anyone that espouses organics and uses and enjoys the benefits of our industrialized society is nothing more than a hypocrite or someone who just isn't educated.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Well stated TX. In this day and age, most eveyone knows about evolution and the process of natural selection. Questioning how a forrest survived before us is just silly. I was going to respond to the "old growth" question.. but, before I replied I clicked on the link he kept advocating. Turn's out it's nothing more than a business trying to sell it's services...so, I decided to call him out on that.

He is either a salesperson for the company(a really bad one), or he is a customer with his blinders on.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I wouldn't say that organic and conventional are like oil and water, I've got a field of bananas that have never been sprayed with anything. The only thing they have ever gotten in a good dose of chemical fertilizer. I've been controlling the weeds by mowing and I am doing an alright job but it is hard work to keep everything under control. However, very shortly I am going to be out there spraying round-up to try to get some longer term control, because guess what, weeds increase humidity and can aggrevate disease and they can also increase the likelihood of frost and I'd rather not get into a major losing battle with sigatoka.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I agree Nick, They go together quite well in my garden.

Just in case you have any worries about roundup--it is very non toxic to mammals and degrades quick in soil--It is basically glycine and phosphate--in essence an organic fertilizer!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Glyphosate overspray is very toxic to banana plants.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

SBL, Roundup has been found to be toxic for humans and extreemly toxic for amphibians.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Roundup contains glyphosate and other chemicals (mainly soap). Commercial farmers do not buy Roundup, but instead one of several generic brands containing glyphosate alone. Straight glyphosate out of the canister is no better than drinking seaweed extract (toxic). Decomposed glyphosphate (chemical 1/2 life = 2 hours) is non-toxic to humans. However, excessive use leads to excess phosphates that are a significant problem in water ways and bad news for the amphibians you mentioned. A once-per-season spraying of farmland by aircraft 7 days prior to planting row crops creates zero runoff. Overuse by consumers is a serious problem.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

You opinion is ridiculous and insulting to say the least, IMO.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I wonder how many people have been dupped on other sites by salespersons for this company?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

You are right Richard,
I should have mentioned that. I have even had some effects on non-target plants from the weeds that were sprayed making contact with the non-target plants--transfer by contact.

As for the mammalian toxicity--this is from the MSDS:
TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION GLYPHOSATE
This section is intended for use by toxicologists and other health professionals.
Data obtained on similar products and on components are summarized below.
Acute oral toxicity
Rat, LD50: > 5,000 mg/kg body weight Practically non-toxic.
FIFRA category IV.
Acute dermal toxicity
Rat, LD50: > 5,000 mg/kg body weight Practically non-toxic.
FIFRA category IV.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Glyphosate is a good non selective herbicide for just abut every plant except Bermuda grass. I have the equivalent of a PDR for weed control. Under glyphosate for bermuda it gives three different application rates. One for actively growing bermuda to control weeds without killing the Bermuda; a winter rate for the same thing and a kill rate. Glyphosate is not an effective herbicide for Bermuda. If you are dealing with primarily Bermuda, I would recommend using either Fusilade of Fusilade DX, whichever you can get your hands on. One is approved for greenhouse use and the other is not. It is slower than glyphosate but once applied, it is nearly 100% effective. Also it is considered an over the top spray for numerous plants. Bananas are not listed but I have had no incidental damage from drift or unintended application.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Independent studies show that it is indeed toxic to humans, mammals and amphibians. Monsanto actually lost a French lawsuit over false advertising the safety of this product.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Mitchel, you are correct about the effects of glyphosate on contact with all of the above. However, after application glyphosate breaks down with a 1/2 life of 2 hours:
in 2 hours: 1/2 remains
in 4 hours: 1/4 remains
in 6 hours: 1/8 remains
...
in 24 hours: below toxic levels for all of the above.
Responsible application is the key. And for heavens sake, don't drink it!

Monsanto's patent for glyphosate ran out decades ago. You can go to an independent nursery and buy a quart of generic glyphosate for 1/4 to 1/2 the price of the same quantity and concentration of Monsanto's "Roundup" product -- and without all the additives. There is even a super-Roundup on the market now from Monsanto that contains glyphosate plus a brush killing chemical used by Ortho in years gone by.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Can you provide some links to human toxicity--everything I can find including EPA data shows it as less toxic than table salt.

Courts decisions are not always the best source for accurate info--you have non-professional people making emotional decisions.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

There seems to be a lot of conficting data on the half life. Most that I seen is much longer than what you have suggested, including data from the state of CA.

This is true and it's speculated to be the reason for the creation of Roundup Ready crops.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

By continuing to equivocate Glyphosate with Roundup, you are furthering the advertising ambitions of the Monsanto company.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I am correcting a misleading statement made and later defended by SBL, how exactly is that equivocating? I have provided proof and can provide more if need be. We are talking about the product "Roundup" are we not?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

No. We are talking about the chemical Glyphosate. Monsanto is not the dominant producer of this chemical. The only places I have seen the phrase "Roundup Ready" used is in (a) advertisements from seed subsidaries of the Monsanto company and (b) editorials in organic-lifestyle magazines. In the commercial agricultural world, the phrase "Glyphosate tolerant" is seen almost exclusively. A farmer who hears the product name "Roundup" laughs because the price per gallon is a joke.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Guys/Gals, why bother with roundup at all? I apply a thick layer of mulch around my banana plants and pull out the very few weeds that appear by hand. You don't even need to buy that much mulch since you can use the banana plants themselves! Once your plant produces bananas, you will have cut it down anyways, so why not use it as mulch?(assuming it wasn't infected with anything) I have run out of people to give my sword suckers to, so I chop those up and toss them on the pile too. Once your "mulch" is about 4 inches thick, you should see very few weeds.

As for other plants and trees, well mulch does not work for all. While you can use it for pretty much any plant, it will need to be at least 8 inches away from the trunk in most cases. In those cases, I pull weeds by hand every few weeks... or I get lazy, let the weeds grow.. and then get inspired one day and go pull them all out at once. :) I haven't experienced any ill effects yet.

Now, a few questions if y'all don't mind..

I've tried several pesticides and am not 100% sold on any of the ones I've tried.(Organocide, Bonide orchard spray, malathion oil, parifine, and a few others) --What pesticides would you guys recommend for fruit trees with fruit on it?...how about while the tree does not have fruit on it?...is there a difference?.. is there an all in 1 product I can rely on, or would I have to use a combination of two or more products?

Im sorry if Im taking the thread off topic.. :)

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

1/2 life in a barrel is very different from 1/2 life diluted in water and applied to plants & soil minerals.

Glyphosate was brought up under the context of agricultural use. The only reference to home use was the statement I made: "Overuse by consumers is a serious problem."

Green Light Fruit Tree Spray.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Richard, below is a quote from SBL. It is this statement that I have been responding to in this thread.


As for the half life numbers:
Glyphosate

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Supermario

I'll send you an email over he weekend. If I don't send it by Saturday, drop me an email and let me know. I have a product called Premise. It is a systemic insecticide. I know it is used on Pecans and ornamentals. I need to look up the labeling and let you know. It is great stuff, very effective, once a year app and minimal danger to beneficials.

The creation of RoundUp ready crops was in response to the expiration of Monsanto's product. A farmer using such seed is required to sign a contract with Monsanto. He is only allowed to save a certain minuscule percentage of his crop this year to seed next, is required to purchase the remainder from Monsanto and can not sell, barter or give away any of the seed harvested from RoundUp ready crops. Farmers using such seed undergo vigorous annual inspections to ensure compliance and hefty fines are levied if the farmer is found to be out of compliance.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Publication Date: 5/94. The "Environmental Fate" section appears to be for direct spills and not herbicide application.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Thanks for the link on Roundup toxicity to human cell lines (not really the same as toxicity to humans). As Richard said earlier, it does appear to be linked to the other ingredients in the formulation. I did use the name roundup when I mentioned the low toxicity, I should have been more specific--the data I was thinking about is for the pure product, glyphosate for which the toxicity (to intact mammals) is lower than that of table salt.

Quote Mario: "I've tried several pesticides and am not 100% sold on any of the ones I've tried.(Organocide, Bonide orchard spray, malathion oil, parifine, and a few others) --What pesticides would you guys recommend for fruit trees with fruit on it?...how about while the tree does not have fruit on it?...is there a difference?.. is there an all in 1 product I can rely on, or would I have to use a combination of two or more products?"

What fruit and what problems?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

There are spiders all over my yard. Odd, small colorful ones with somewhat square bodies and tiny legs. They don't really seem to harm the fruit(except for damaging some flower clusters in my mango trees)...it's just a real pain to get around my yard while trying to avoid getting "caught" in their webs.

The bugs I know I need to watch out for are aphids, ants, mealy bugs, and caterpillars. I see caterpillars quite often, but simply pick them off, so that isn't a big issue. However, if there is a spray that will prevent butterflies from landing on my trees in the first place, that would be great.

Now, I have a few different trees, so I'm not sure if one spray works for all. Any help is appreciated..

-Citrus- my primary concern.. They have lots of leaf miner damage and have lost a few trees to greening(transmitted by insects).

-Mango trees - I use a combination Liquid Copper Fungicide and Sulfur to control anthracnose and powdery mildew. They don't have many bugs bothering them other than the above mentioned spiders. I've rarely sprayed them with anything to try and kill the spiders, but it hasn't worked.

-Sapodilla/zapote/nispero trees- both are crawling with ants! I blast them with some water every other day. Oh, and they had several of these insects on them:


Any idea what they are? Friend or Foe?

-Jaboticaba trees- trouble free

-Banana trees- trouble free

-Fig tree- occasional leaf rust...some tiny bugs stuck on the fruit themselves sometimes, but not often. Usually pretty trouble free.

-Atemoya tree- leaf damage.. something is eating some of the older leaves. I have yet to spot the culprit

-Avocado tree- trouble free

-Cacao- same as 'atemoya'

I also have a piper nigrum vine that has been relatively trouble free. Some leaf damage, but not much.

TX.. I have never used systemic insecticide since I don't think they are good for tropicals, but I would love to see the info. My fruit trees are listed above.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Your welcome. Human cells are human cells, death is death. There are no reliable long term independant human safety studies focusing on the Roundup formulation or Glyphosate for that matter, and I'd rather not wait 30 years to see the effects. :2688:

Think Agent Orange (Dioxin) and PCBs. Monsanto is not exactly who I'd trust with my health. Safe as table salt as you say is something they claimed before loosing two lawsuits in New York and France for false advertizing.

The History of PCBs - When Were Problems Detected
Agent Orange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Richard, from DOW Chemical: As I've said, the numbers you gave are not consistent with other suggested application half life data that's readily available. It pretty much depends on your location and soil type. Here is some info showing how wide spread the numbers can be.

Glyphosate Factsheet (part 1 of 2) Caroline Cox / Journal of Pesticide Reform v.108, n.3 Fall98 rev.Oct00


TX_Crinum, thank you for clarifying was I was attempting to say to Richard.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Mario, The picture you have there is a good guy--that is an assasin bug. The larval forms can be hard to distinguish from leaf-footed bugs (a type of stink bug)--you have to look close at the back legs, but most larval stink bugs hang out in groups while the assasin larvae are solitary. Spiders are good guys too--they all kill other bugs, but they can be annoying. As for the citrus leaf miners, nothing works very well, but Spinosad applied with a little oil works better that anything else I have tried. Horticultural oil sprayed on new growth will repel the adult moth from laying eggs--they don't like oily surfaces, but rain will wash it off. Like you I do not like systemics on fruit.

Momoese--the point I was making about cell culture toxicity is that in an intact organism, there are many defensive processes not available to cells--uptake, elimination, detoxification for example. If cell culture toxicity were a viable substitute for animal toxicity test, it would make a lot of people happy--including me. If you have information on what ingredients in Roundup are responsible for the toxicity I would be interested.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

SBL, it may not be what ingredients are individually responsible for the toxicity, likely the combination of ingredients that create the problem. Mostly the surfactants such as polyoxyethyleneamines (POEA) (which by themselves are said to be more toxic than Glyphosate) are mentioned along with a few other ingrediants. The exact ingrediants are not known.

Acording to UC Berkeley, In California, glyphosate is the third most commonly-reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. I have yet to find the data for this but I'm still looking.

Then there is this. 7-Misc: Swedish study shows links between glyphosate and cancer

It's really bad for amphibians. There is plenty of data on that.
http://www.pitt.edu/news2009/Roundup.pdf


The only actual human tests that I know of were conducted in Japan and resulted in deaths and suicides from direct ingestion of the product. How they got people to drink it is beyond me.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Again, thanks for the links. The paper on the toxicity to amphibians is a good paper and clearly shows the formulations containing POEA are highly toxic to amphibians.

The study suggesting links with Lymphoma certainly raise concerns and should remind all of us that there are many factors to consider before we call a pesticide "safe". No acute toxicity, does not mean there are not long term effects, and the so called "inert ingredients" are not always inert!

It is not clear if the effects are comming from glyphosate or from the "inert ingredients", but I will certainly handle it more carefully.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Has anyone noticed that the OP who started this thread has evaporated into thin air?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Whenever someone starts capitalizing, bolding, and especially color-bolding to make a point, I become very skeptical of the writing and the perceptions behind it.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Hey I resemble that. :03:

But I only do it when I believe someone has not read what I wrote. Nothing at all wrong with some skepticism though.

As for the OP I think it's been shown that (he?) is a salesperson. On the other hand there are also many Straw Men that go around posting to various websites to further their agendas.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Indeed. that's the second "organic" guy I've called out on this forum. Some "organicprojim" came on recommending some "TurfPro" product for all your plants. A quick search revealed he was the head of the company! He even went as far as posting fake reviews on Dave's Garden Watchdog!

The jerk that started this thread seemed to be trying to sell everyone on some lab called "soil food web". I'm actually not sure if he really is a salesman though...cause I've worked in sales the majority of my life and know better than to insult or attack a potential customer in any way. I think it's more likely he was one of the "soil food web's" clients and got sick of everyone pointing out his inconsistencies. He's probably planning a demonstration with PETA as we speak.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

A recent report by the Food and Drug Administration says there's no evidence that organic food is any safer than conventionally grown food: Feds Say Organic Food Not Safer Than Food Grown Conventionally | KPBS.org

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

The sickest I've ever been was from drinking unpasteurized organic pomegranate juice from a farmer that I had known and trusted for a very long time. You just never know. I still buy from him but I did let him know that his product almost killed me. I'm sure it was the juice because at the time I was dieting and that was the only thing I had consumed that day before becoming violently ill.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I've had similar negative experiences when purchasing food anywhere other than my usual grocer. That is why I make no exception when I shop for meat, chicken, fish, etc. I may stray from the typical commercial grocer when it comes to fruits and veggies, but that's about it.

Here in Miami, FL.. Sedano's is a very successful grocery chain. I personally will NEVER shop there again unless I am buying something that I can easily judge the quality of for myself(some ethnic canned foods as well.)..The reason why is because I purchased some milk there once... tasted it the same day and it was grainy! YUCK! I guess they left it out too long before refridgerating it again! The milk didn't even expire for another two weeks!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Okay, now that insult was not called for one bit. I am proud to be a card carrying member of PETA. People Eating Tasty Animals.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I'll say my bit and I'm done.

We all know pestcides and artificial fertilizers are bad; you eat them they'll kill you. You breathe to much in you can get cancer, you put some types on your skin it can burn you or leave you with a rash.

But many don't care; they have mouths to feed and more importantly money to make.

We have just as many people preaching the miracle grow dogma aswell as the composting commandments; its a battle to me. Those resistant to change and those rebuking a regrettably successful fix (on the short-term).

There is no point to argue, much like all other things that affect people's choices there will be those who simply enjoy to make other people's choices there own.

It's absolutely mind boggling to be on the sidelines and reading what some people say.

Anyway I'm done; carry on.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Beer is a pesticide when used to control snails and slugs. The term "pesticide" has no bearing on whether a material is naturally occurring, synthetic, or toxic to humans. Legally, it only relates to use.

Lemon juice is a herbicide when used to kill weed seedlings. Again, the term "herbicide" only relates to use and has no bearing on whether the substance is naturally occurring, synthetic, or toxic to humans.