Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Both methods have negative consequences and positive benefits. Artificial fertilizer? What does that mean? N fertilizer is made from air by nature in 2 ways; lightening and in the nodules of plants that contain nitrogen fixing bacteria, plants and bacterial then transform it into various forms, ammonia, nitrate, protein. Man makes N fertilizer from air using the Haber-Bosch process using natural gas, heat and electricity (modeled after Mother Natures method - lightening). After the N is fixed, it can be transformed into various forms, like nitrate.

P and K cannot be "created" by man (except in nuclear reactors--at cost that would make it more valuable than gold.) P in modern fertilizer is mined from animal graveyards where bones have turned into phosphate rock. The phosphate rock can be powdered and used directly or transformed into various forms. Most K in nature is found in rocks- (it is radioactive with a half life of 1.5 B yrs by the way and responsible for most of the background radiation we all recieve--especiall if you live in a brick home). In manmade fertilizer, K comes from extraction of rocks with acids to obtain various salts of K.

As I said earlier, the real downside of concentrated fertilizer is that it helps natural soil bacteria consume the organic matter that is there. In soil, when a plant dies, the C to N ratio is lower than what is needed to support bacteria, that N get used fairly rapidly leaving even lower C to N ratio--almost pure organic carbon. This material helps in soil drainage, aeration and maintains a healthy soil. The addition of fertilizer alone will speed up the degredation of the organic matter, it does not kill the bacteria, it provideds them with the nutrients to consume the carbon. If you do not add additional organic matter, the soil will become compacted and depending on soil type, low in minerals.

However, if you continuously add organic matter, you can maintain a healthy soil and more productive plants.

As for pesticides, I understand the concern for use of chemicals that we know little about, especially in a long term sense. We may know that there is low probability of acute toxicity, but how do we know there are not some long term negative effects like cancer or birth defects. But just because a pesticide was made by Mother Nature does not mean it is safe. The most toxic compounds know to man were made by Mother Nature.

The best way to control pest is to maintain a healthy population of predatory insects. To do that I use pesticides very sparingly, and I only use pesticides that have very short half lives (some organic some manmade--mostly malathion and permethrins) and I limit application to problem areas to avoid killing beneficials. I often use soap--a manmade chemical--because it only kills what I put it on.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Found this and thought I'd share.

First, there's the environmental damage and impact on human health caused by chemical N-P-K fertilizers.

Then, there's the problems of overuse. Excessive doses of some nutrients is a direct cause of other nutrient deficiencies.

And there's the build-up of chemical Salts. Because these fertilizers are by definition SALTS. Everyone knows Salt is BAD for agriculture.

On top of all this is the terrible toll that fertilizer manufacturing takes on the environment and the people who live near the factories. They pollute; they're dangerous. Remember the Bhopal fertilizer plant explosion in India in 1984? The Toulouse fertilizer plant explosion in France in 2001? On our own shores, the worst accident involving fertilizer took place in 1947 in Texas, when 600 people were killed and 3,500 people were injured; it was part of the testimony presented in July 2005 before the Senate Homeland Security Committee, which was studying national security risks:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/securi...50713-poje.pdf

Let's look first at the ingredients in a balanced fertilizer: N-P-K.

N, Nitrogen, is the most common element in our atmosphere. It comes in different forms: Elemental N, NO3- (Nitrate), NO2 (Nitrite), NH4+ (ionized Ammonia), NH3+ (poisonous Ammonia gas) and others. Nitrogen is also an essential nutrient; all plants and animals need it to survive. It's essential to the Chlorophyll molecule.

Too much, or the wrong kind of N, will damage or kill these organisms.

news-service.stanford.edu/news/1998/august26/yaqui.html

N is especially toxic to fish and invertebrates. It's also toxic to humans; people who depend on rural, private wells for their water source have one of the higher rates of a condition called Methemoglobinemia, aka Blue Baby Syndrome, which damages blood cells and is traced to high Nitrates.

Articles in Science Magazine submitted by the International Nitrogen Initiative last May inspired 'Reactive Nitrogen: The Next Big Pollution Problem' on the Wired Science website. It describes a litany of problems and warns us, 'Nitrogen pollution could eventually render entire stretches of ocean dead, as is now the case in the Gulf of Mexico, where fertilizer runoff has created a 5,800 square mile dead zone.' Here's the URL:

blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/05/reactive-nitrog.html

More data appears in an essay posted by a company in New Jersey, Alpha Water Systems, titled 'Nitrate Pollution of Groundwater'. You can read it online:

NITRATE POLLUTION OF GROUNDWATER

None of this is new. It's just worse.

And that's just the N.

Unlike Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium are immobile in Soil.

Feldspars and Micas contain most of the Potassium in our Soil. K in fertilizers is almost always applied as Potassium Chloride from mines in Canada.

K dissolves in Water. P does not.

Instead, it binds to Soil particles and stays put until some nice microbe comes along and un-locks it. Clay Soils tend to keep the strongest grip on it; Sandy Soils are looser and let it drizzle through.

Phosphate and Potash fertilizers don't just raise the chemical P and K levels; they also add damaging Soil Salts. And although most Soils in the U.S. have perfectly adequate levels of Phosphorus and Potassium, and even though they don't need any more from your fertilizer, people use them anyway. This is a problem because too much Phosphorus locks other nutrients OUT of plants.

Iron and Zinc deficiencies are common in Soil over-loaded with non-dissolving P. A fatal disease in livestock called 'Grass Tetany' -- a complex condition linked to Mg deficiency in cows and other ruminants -- is examined by French author André Voisin: 'Excessive and repeated dressings of Potassium fertilizers cause Magnesium deficiencies in plants, particularly Grasses...' It's even bad for the animals that depend on them; they too develop Mg deficiency:

'GRASS TETANY' Chapter 6

Organic Phosphates provide energy for chemical reactions in plant and animal growth and cell reactions. But too much and you end up with growth out of control.

When this happens in a lake, you find so much growing going on that they run out of Oxygen; you end up with a lot of dead plants and animals.

Phosphate pollution is so bad in some areas, people are pushing for a 'Phosphate Fertilizer Act' to deal with it. Phosphorus would be legal only if a Soil Test showed it was needed; only if you were planting new Seed or installing new Sod; or if you're a licensed greenskeeper at a golf course.

You can see how hard fertilizer companies would push to block this law. Their profits depend on getting people to use fertilizer ALL the time, not just when they need it.

Making Phosphate fertilizer is no picnic, either. That's a big problem in Florida, where it's a billion dollar industry. Phosphate fertilizer contains radioactive lead and polonium.

Mine the Phosphate and you end up with radioactive byproducts. As environmentalist George C. Glasser points out, 'Phosphate fertilizer manufacturing and mining are not environment friendly operations... People living near the fertilizer plants and mines, experience lung cancer and leukemia rates that are double the state average.' You can read his article, 'Fluoride and the Phosphate Connection', in the online Pure Water Gazette:

Fluoride and the Phosphate Connection* by George C

Potassium (K) is essential for plant growth. K is generally not considered an environmental problem; in parts of the world where high levels were recorded, industrial waste (and not fertilizer) was blamed. Plants absorb K very efficienty when it's dissolved in the water in your Soil. As with P, too much K in your Soil will chemically lock out other important micronutrients. Calcium and Magnesium are 2 elements upstaged by too much K in Soil.

Now, we all know that Salt damages plants. A Chemical fertilizer is, technically, a Chemical Salt: an Ionic Compound. It can be produced by the reaction of an Acid and a Base; by combining a Cation (positively charged Ion) and an Anion (negative charged Ion) or a Metal and an Acid.

A Salt gets its name from the Cation, followed by the name of the Anion. NaCl - Sodium Chloride, aka Table Salt, is a Sodium Cation bonded to a Chloride Anion. (NH4)2SO4 - Ammonium Sulfate, the preferred N fertilizer for Lawns and Golf Courses, is an Ammonium Cation and a Sulfate Anion. Ca(NO3)2 - Calcium Nitrate, a Calcium Cation and a Nitrate Anion. CO(NH2)2 is Urea, the most inexpensive Nitrogen fertilizer, made of Carbon Dioxide (CO2) and Anhydrous Ammonia (NH3) (Ammonia bonds directly with Acids to form 'Ammonium Salts').

That, in a very large nutshell, is the problem with chemical fertilizers.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I'm going to attempt to summarize the below information in as simple a way possible...

Do not apply too much fertilzer. Do not eat the fertilizer nor drink water that may contain runoff..

Did I hit?.. or miss?

Although the info does not provide a solution to the proposed problem, it seems as if one tests their soil regularly and applies only what is needed...there will be no problem.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding the environmental consequences of excess fertilizers--it is what I spent a significant part of my career working on. However, even natural sources of fertilizer can be responsible for eutrophication--case in point--I remember a river in the Pacific NW where the source of the eutrophication was traced to salt spray from the ocean that acted as a cation exchange to release natural N in soils formed by N fixation in Aspens.

In the Gulf of Mexico, 70% of the excess N in the Mississippi River comes from the corn belt---much of the remainder comes from municipal inputs.
As a scientist, I also think that much of the problem comes from removal of the consumers--In Chesapeake Bay in the 1600s, oysters filtered the entire volume of the bay in 3 to 4 days--now it takes 300-400 days.

I also agree with the damage caused by mining (all mining), but we just need to make the mine companies put up the money for restoration before they do the mining--the mines can be restored --it just takes money.

Last, the argument about salt killing microbes is highly overstated. It is not the presence of salt, it is the concentration of salt. All animals, plants and microbe require salt, but when the concentration inside or outside is too high, it can be lethal.

There are many differences in requirements depending on the soil and environmental or climatic conditions. We have very sandy soil with very low natural nutrient/mineral levels. There are several plants that won't grow here due to salt (IN THE AIR). Our high rainfall (5 to 6 ft a yr) washes out salts and nutrients. Addition of organic matter helps retain nutrients and add trace minerals, but unless you have a farm lot full of animals, it is almost impossible to maintain a productive healthy garden without frequent additions of commercial fertilizers.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Table salt, yes. The majority of salts do not have the property of table salts and are acidic, not alkaline. A large number of naturally occuring salts are beneficial to plants.

The water soluble fertilizer shown in the bottom photograph is not available from The Scotts MiracleGro Company. The color of the compound is from naturally-occuring Copperas:



All of the fertilizer samples in the image below contain chemicals: some non-synthetic, some synthetic.

1. Granular "Triple-15". Does not qualify as an "Organic Fertilizer". In the fertilizer industry, granular refers to a nutrient that is cast on the ground, typically where the irrigation water will hit it. In this particular case, several university studies have demonstrated that soil biology is adversely affected when triple-15 (and some similar products) are applied directly to bare soil. However, when applied to a thick layer of mulch the results range from negative to positive depending upon (a) the underlying soil, (b) the nature of the mulch, and (c) the leaf-fall from surrounding plants.
2. Pelletized "Pure-N-Natural". Qualifies as an "Organic Fertilizer". Pelletized means that a combination of materials were pressed or baked into a solid, then crushed or pelletized, and sometimes coated (e.g., osmocote). These again are intended to be applied directly to the soil. This particular product contains nutrient chemicals -- both major and minor, non-nutrient chemicals -- e.g., humic acids, plus mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria all coexisting in the same compound. It is one of several excellent soil conditioners and inoculants on the market. Note that once you inoculate your soil -- you need not do it again for many years if ever ... especially if the soil is maintained with a top layer of mulch. Five to seven years ago I inoculated my orchard soils with this product and since then annual soil tests have shown that no further biotics need be added.
3. Water Soluble 20-5-5. Qualifies as an "Organic Fertilizer". Water soluble means that the product was designed to be dissolved in water before applying to plants. If you were to apply them directly to the ground, a large percentage of the nutrients would simply escape to the atmosphere. Most agricultural water solubles (including this one) are beneficial to organisms in the soil -- in fact the water solubles often count on microbes to process some of the minerals into a form useful by plants.
4. Neem Seed Meal. Qualifies as an "Organic Fertilizer". A meal is a ground or shredded plant material. In this case, Neem Seed Meal is comprised of seed casings and fibers left over after Neem Seed Oil is pressed from the seeds. The meal is high in nitrogen for a plant material (~ 5-1-1) and has been used in south Asia for centuries. It is not a significant insecticide but the strong odor will drive away some varieties of insects, bugs, and most teenagers.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

So for the most part you two agree with what this person posted?

SBL, when you say " it is almost impossible to maintain a productive healthy garden without frequent additions of commercial fertilizers." are you 1, referring to the sandy soil in your area, and 2, what is your definition of "comercial fertilizers"? Are you in this specific post talking about chemical ferts or anything packaged and sold at a profit that feeds the plants including organic (non chemical and non synthesized) plant food.

Richard, I see you quoted me and want to make clear that is not my writing, it's something I found while surfing.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

No. It is replete with over-generalizations and phobic undertones.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

What who posted? I have not read the links in your last post.

[/quote]
SBL, when you say " it is almost impossible to maintain a productive healthy garden without frequent additions of commercial fertilizers." are you 1, referring to the sandy soil in your area, and 2, what is your definition of "comercial fertilizers"? Are you in this specific post talking about chemical ferts or anything packaged and sold at a profit that feeds the plants including organic (non chemical and non synthesized) plant food.[/quote]



I am talking about our sandy soil as that is what I know about. The commercial fertilizers I am talking about are typical granular fertilizer used on farms. Various NPK ratios depending on the plants and needs--including things like Ammonium sulfate, ammonium nitrate, urea, diammonium phosphate, potassium nitrate.

The truth is if organic fertilizers like cottonseed meal were as cheap as available and as effective I would use them--I don't have anything against them, but I would have to drive 50 mile to get such materials in addition to the fact that they cost more and work more slowly. The most effective organic material I get is my neighbors grass clippings--once composted it is about as good as manure.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

The problems with Nitrogen and Phosphorus will be the same whether they came from chemical fertilizer or an organic source. You're going to end up with nitrate from both organic and various chemical fertilizers. Nitrate is nitrate.

Salts exist in organic material as well. Chemical fertilizers don't remain salts either. As long as the salt doesn't build up in the soil, it isn't a problem. Dry areas have the problem the most. Naturally, desert areas have high amounts of salt in the soil.

Most of the problems mentioned are due to poor management and will exist with organic fertilizer as well. For instance, I've mentioned before that the main problem with phosphorus in my area is application of chicken manure. There is tons of it and it needs to go somewhere.

You're going to end up providing unneeded chemicals to your plants by using only organic materials since you can't pick and choose the exact nutrient you want to use. With "chemical" fertilizers you can provide exactly what is needed.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

As for the environmental consequences of excess nutrients, much of the problem could be reduced by better land management--buffer zones to absorb runoff, retention areas and reduced application rates. Many corn farmers over apply fertilizer for that 1 yr in 5 when the have sufficient rainfall to use the extra fertilizer.

As Turtile said P from intensive animal farms (hogs, chickens and cows) is as much of the problem as row crops. However, I still think that in coastal waters, overfishing is as much of the problem as nutrient input.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Exactly my point. I applaud anyone willing to try and grow things without adding a single thing to their soil, but in reality we all need something. We can pay an arm and a leg for what is "sexy" at the moment...or we can go with what is economic while still taking quality into consideration(only because nowadays we have many options to choose from AND lots of good sources for information)

As for the info momoese posted... I think I summed it up about right. Sure I dumbed it down, but in essence, it seems as though mismanagement of nutrients is the main problem in that example.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

So SBL, let me be clear here. You are trying to tell me and everyone else that at some point we are going to have to apply chemical fert in order to grow our gardens? If that's really what your trying to say which I think it is I have one word for you, hogwash! My garden is as nice as anyone else's and produces as much fruit with zero point zero chemical fert added, never have and never will. My garden is all natural and organic with no synthentic or chemical fert, pesticides, or herbicides. The organic garden where some of my pups came from has been organic for 30 some years, it looks and grows awesome with no chemical or synthentic anything added. They use fish scraps and plant matter, that's all!

If faced with driving 50 miles and paying double for organic material to feed my garden that's exactly what I would do! As a matter of fact I just did not long ago to aquire some composted chicken manure from organic chickens. :)

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

What fruit trees/veggie plants do you grow?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Not just fruit and veggies, ornamentals as well. My garden is a chemical free happy place and the birds, bees, earthworms, good and bad insects all aggree!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Sounds great. Can you please specify the plants that you grow?

The reason I ask is because I have several different types of fruit trees. I also grow veggies and have a few ornamentals. I have mangos, sapodillas, bananas, jaboticabas, atemoya, avocado, lime, orange, fig, cacao, black pepper, papaya, and I also grow veggies according to season. The ornamentals I have are purple queen, birds of paradise, hibiscus, and another tree I don't know the name of. If you can give me recommendations for all, that are also cost friendly of course, I would appreciate it.

All of the above mentioned trees have their own set of requirements. How could I possibly meet all of those different trees needs by organic means without spending an arm and a leg? You mention you don't mind driving 50 miles and spending twice as much.. but some people don't have the option. I personally can afford it, but prefer to spend my extra money on travel and entertainment...most other things, I can best be described as "camino con los codos".. Lorax should be able to translate. :)

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

No it isn't. The materials you apply all contain chemical fertilizers, about 2% per pound.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Come to think of it, the requirements for each of my trees are according to my specific area. So, logic dictates that one would need something far different in another part of the country as opposed to here in Miami, FL. There is no one solution no matter what your beliefs.

If I understand correctly, my soil should be similar to sbl's(judging by his comments)...just not the climate. I doubt our soil is the same as in say...southern California

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Splitting hairs Richard.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Mitchell,
You have every right to be proud of your garden and fruit production -- I have been envious of your fruit on more than one occasion. But to say your garden is chemical free propagates a lot of misunderstanding. It furthers the marketing goals of those who wish to cast "chemical" as a negative term. Fact is, we would all be in bad shape without the chemical oxygen.

The worm castings in your garden are about 1% nitrates, 0.5% phosphates, and 0.5% potash, plus about another 0.1% minors and micros by weight. These chemical salts are manufactured for you by your wild and untamed worms!

Beer is every bit as synthetic as water soluble fertilizers -- it even contains a surfactant. If you use beer to control slugs and snails in your garden then you are using a synthetic pesticide.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I grow mostly desert bananas, canna, ginger, tanglad, Ti, heliconia, plumeria, blueberry, strawberry, mango, citrus, babaco, passion fruit, tomato, lettuce, bamboo, palm, night blooming jasmine, hot peppers, giant bird of paradise, geranium, many types of succulents, aloe, agave, lawn for the dogs to play, weeds (they like it here too), many herbs, pineapples, kangaroo paw, yucca, puya, and soon kei apple. I'm sure I missed a bunch of things but you get the point. The acid loving plants receive some coffee grounds, otherwise they all find what they need from the soil. No problems with insects, they eat and get eaten by others, and few holes in my lettuce doesn't scare me.

I'm perfectly happy with the results and as the saying goes, if it aint broke don't fix it.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Excellent! Now, it seems your working with excellent soil to begin with. I live in South Florida. Mother Nature designed for this area to be a swampland. Man decided to make canals and drain all the water...then level any uneven soil with rocks and build the house we suburbian Miamians live on. :) In some spots in my yard, I need a jack hammer to dig more than a few inches!

I've found Pepsi cans from the 70's, wooden fence posts, chain fence posts, orange construction netting, glass beer bottles, shoes, milk jugs, roof tiles and other construction materials, a leather glove, a sock, rope, and a ton of small budweiser beer cans in my yard while digging holes for my trees and veggie garden.

My point is that "organic" practices have best results in places with rich soil to begin with. What about those in nutrient defficient soils? Jaboticaba is native to Brazil while Figs are from the Mediterranean, yet they are both growing in my yard. The Jaboticaba has far more nutrient needs here than most figs for obvious reasons.

So, how could I meet the nutrient demand for my different trees without resorting to a convenient, cheap fertilizer?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Yes, the L.A. basin is about 4,000 to 9,000 feet thick alluvial fan of excellent minerals. There are pockets of bad news though, for example not far from Mitchell's house are the La Brea Tar Pits.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

The slugs climb in the can and die. Nothing is added to the soil, so how is that affecting the plants or the soil for that matter?

My point is that I do my best to keep it free of toxic chemicals and anything synthetic and the results have been satisfactory.

BTW, I'll take the Oxygen, you can have the Dioxin. ;)

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Nobody said it was. Nobody is suggesting that you change how you garden. It is the negative light you have cast on all chemicals and all synthetics that has been disturbing to me and others.

I think the results have been great!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Our soil is hard packed clay with undesirable debris from years back as well. It has to be wet to dig........well it used to be that way before years of amending and mulching. Now it's soft, dark and easy to dig. When I plant I go deep and mix my new stuff 50/50 with the exsisting soil after removing the large concrete bits, bricks, glass, wooden fence posts, childrens toys, etc. Maybe not the mess you have but still plenty of unwanted crap in there. If you had a pot and wanted to grow your fig in an organic soil mix what would you do, the same thing you'd do in your planting beds, just on a smaller scale. For the beds you have to import large amounts of organic matter and blend it with the existing soil. If not you'll have to use the chemical ferts or something else.

One of the things I like about growing organic the way I do is that I never have to break out a calculator to avoid burning the plants with chemical ferts. I could grow bananas right in my compost pile just fine, and if I spill a whole 5 gallon bucket of compost tea on a plant no biggie!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I avoid a calculator by following directions on the package.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

If the synthetic (beer) product does not touch the plants or soil then am I really using it in the garden. I think not. I could have an open container of Roundup in the middle of my yard but that does not constitute usage. No application = no usage.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

That would be alchohol abuse, apply to the gardener only as directed.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

First off i don't want you to think in any way I'm against Organic farming.
But i live in a wash area were the soil is 80% gypsum and 15% calcium with 5% non specific micro nutrients. I have done every thing in my power to provide a complex and beneficial organic life to my soil. In the end its poor soil to keep much of any thing in place long enough to benefit the plants. So i must resort to additions to my practices which is what we should be talking about "practices Not Additives". Its in how you use your tools that makes the biggest difference to how your soil reacts to thees chemicals. there all the same more of less if they are pure. i understand the out rage to the commercial farm industries Practices of using 10 times the Fertilizers. Most home gardeners don't fall in to that kind of meager mismanagement of soil resources.

Ultimately if one looks a farm practices in the last 10 year you would see that farmers are moving away from some of the bad ways and on to new more innovative management. I understand that they have a long way to go before one could in any stretch of the imagination call them sustainable. but I'm sure with time they will move to better ways. Besides ultimately they will have to change! we simply do not have the remaining resources to maintain these damaging and wasteful farming strategies.

I don't want to change the subject. but what we need to be focusing on is how are we going to feed the Peoples of this world on organic Techniques. i don't see at this point how that will be possible. i believe one of the meager reasons we have moved forward technically and culturally is that was have not had to struggle to feed are selves. what if that changes? what then? how will we care for are plaint if its vary life is being sucked away by massive over population. i don't care what subject you are talking about in are modern life its aways comes back to this one topic "Over Population" this is the stresser, the catalyst if you were for many of bad things that have happened war famine plague they all come back to this!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Clay soil is very rich in minerals and retains nutrients much better than our sand, This sandy soil is almost the same as pure sandbox sand--no color, no minerals and no capacity to retain nutrients. Organic material aded to the soil, --say 3-4 inches of compost is gone in a yr due to our heat humidity and rainfall--over 5ft on a dry yr and almost 7 ft in some years. It is difficult to maintain a balance of any kind with that kind of leaching. I do not have to worry about burning--I have to add a small amount frequently. I use about 5 pounds a yr of trace mineral mix containing a wide variety of chemical salts, of Iron, Copper, Zinc, Boron, Magnesium, Manganese, and Sulfur. I have a compost pile that is about 4 x 4 x 8 ft--I go through that entire pile in about 6 months adding 2-3 wheelbarrow loads a week.

BTW, I grow tomatoes (no blossom end rot), peppers, eggplant, beans, peas, okra, lettuce, onions, cabbage, broccoli, herbs (dill, thyme, basil, cilantro), snow peas, turnips, kale, mustard greens, and ginger all in an area about 25 x 30 ft. As for fruit trees, I have 7 citrus trees, bananas, peaches, pineapples, pears, pecans, avocados, and figs. Ornamentals--too many to mention.

Edit:I forgot about my blueberries.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

SBL. if you were to truck in a mass amount of clay to mix with your sand what would happen?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

The point is that you are drinking a product that is no less synthetic or toxic than several of the water soluble fertilizers and pesticides which you are constantly criticizing.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Zeba Quench is a better choice. It takes far less quantity and meets all of Mitchell's environmental requirements.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Spin much? Thanks for a good laugh this morning!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

what about plain old cheep Kitty litter its 100%clay and can be bout wholesale by the tun for Cheep if you are wiling to go pick it up and its made all over the country

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

And this brings me back full circle to my first post on this thread: Subsistence farming versus commercial production or choosing between living in a third work country or a modern industrialized society. Without all the evils of 'synthetic fertilizers' our standard of living as we know it today would be impossible. Each household would be required to expend a significant amount of their energy just to survive on a day to day basis and forgo many of our modern conveniences. If you own a car, enjoy an air conditioned home, buy your clothes at Target and keep you food fresh in a refrigerator, you are directly benefiting from the use of the evil synthetic fertilizers.

My problem is not about using or not using organic/inorganic production methods and pesticides. MY PROBLEM is with the clueless hypocrites who have found religion through organics and have no idea they should be thanking technology in agriculture on a daily basis for every modern convenience they use on a daily basis. What if Einstein, Ford and the Wright brothers had to spend every day working their own garden just to survive on a daily basis rather than have time to create their inventions. Well we would be using oil lamps, the whales would be extinct*, and we would be riding horses.

* If you think whales are an endangered today, do some research on the kerosene lamp. Prior to the advent of kerosene and kerosene lamp, the fuel of choice was whale oil. The change over from an organic source of oil to a 'synthetic' source exponentially reduced the systematic killing of these creatures.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

The air we breath is a chemical? ..................Is it just me or has this thread gone a bit over the top? I guess I'm looking at it simply a gardener with no agenda or whatever. How's a gardener able to discuss succesful methods without having it turned in to a scientific debate that most of us are unprepared to respond to?
Back to growing for me...........enough!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

It would have to come from a long way--the "red clay" base that can be bought around here is rich in iron but not much else. Many people do add a truckload of red clay/sand to their lawns, but it still requires the addition of fertilizers as the subsoil is still sand and leaches nutrients due to our heavy rainfall.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

TX, I have never to my knowledge disagreed that "conventional" growing methods are, required to feed the worlds population. I simply don't condone it in my garden. There is just no reason for the addition of chemical ferts or pesticides in a garden that flourishes using organic growing methods. As a byproduct I give less of my hard earned money to multinational corporations like Monsanto and more to local farmers who grow the food I like eat and produce the compost my plants like. The organic free range chickens I buy from a local farmer are the best I've ever tasted and produce organic chicken manure. Win win. I also avoid GMO's by buying organic.

Btw, take at easy with all that bold text, Richard may become skeptical of your writings.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

This is too funny.:ha: You protest too much and your agendas laid bare. I thought we were just discussing gardening methods? Now your frustration has lead to insults since you obviously have nothing left. It really has no place in this forum. Please stop insulting your fellow banana enthusiasts. I guess you have a problem with gardeners like myself and that obviously "clueless hypocrite" momoese. Not one of you has mentioned how synthetic chemical ferilizers and weed killers is able to improve the long term health,fertility and tilth of the soil. You can't :ha: None of the organic method practicioners has said we don't enjoy modern conveniences and surely we all do. Now we're whale killers? (Is that the best you can do or was it fired in misguided anger off the cuff?) Nor have I read about any one of the organic practioners bringing Einstein in to the..........ahem ...........gardening discussion. Why would you conjure up Ford and the Wright Brothers in a gardening forum? I feel truly sorry for you that you feel compelled to spend your day creating insults and pulling obscure unrelated facts to add to your supposed credibility, while I'm here enjoying the responses of those that feel compelled(for whatever reason?) to guide and chastise the "uninformed".
"Found Religion through organics?...........did you really go there?:(

I'm not going to dignify this behavior here any longer in what has previously been and remains to be a place for banana growers to compare notes and help each other out despite our personal differences for the love of the hobby we should celebrate sharing. It doesn't sound at all as if you have been encouraged to do that.:basketbalhooplnaner
As of now maybe I'd like to swap notes in a separate forum for the like minded so we can all go back to getting along. There will be no more response from me here.

Your's truly , that silly whale killing , and clueless hypocrite
Bob

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

We agree to disagree in a manner of speaking. I believe I have found the only person in the world who recognizes that practicing organic cultural methods is infeasible to meet the national and international demands for nutrition. That is intellectually refreshing. There is a universe of difference between practicing organic production methods and espousing it is the only way we should be doing it and practicing it and realizing it is not a feasible commercial production method. It is reassuring to know there is at least one smart person with common sense.

Yeah, I did get carried away on my bold text. Do you think three words is excessive?

Have a good day but did I really mean it. I have to get back to writing my lesson plans for my little miscreants that will be showing up on Monday.

LOL

Oh and Bob,

Unless you have been following and reading all 80 posts, which I know is probably very difficult to see and do from your perch on that flagpole, it is understandable how you can be so ignorant as to my comments.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I have stated the same opinion in past discussions here. I am pretty sure we can't feed the worlds population with organic growing methods, but that said, if we had far less people I think it would be possible. The Hunza's are a good example of this.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

How do you define long term health, fertility and tilth of the soil?

To me it means repeatable productivity of healthy plants. If I tried to grow plants on the soil that was here when the white man first got here without any additions, most plants would produce little or nothing in this sand--if they survived at all. Native plants here are sea oats and prickley pear cactus.

Addition of natural available organic material (pine straw and live oak leaves) would help some but they are very poor in nutrients. With the addition of lawn grass clippings (fed chemical fertilizers) I can do much better, but still not as good as the same additions with commercial fertilizers and minerals--to me that is improving the soil---how do you think it has hurt the soil?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I don't mind but Richard does. Good thing you didn't use color with those bolds or you might have been sent to your room for a time out. ;)

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

There is only one L in my name. Thanks in advance. :)

SBL suggested that clay holds nutrients better so I thought that was what we were talking about, not the water retention of that product. Maybe you just wanted to post the name for more Google hits? Is this something you plan to sell or maybe already are?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Bob, this thread actually "sprouted" from another one that got so heated it was closed for good. If you go back to the very first post of this thread, you will see the person responsible for the previous thread being closed, and of course, starting this one.

Previous thread: http://www.bananas.org/f312/organic-...izer-7785.html

Here's a great quote from our friend organicbananac...probably the perfect example of what TX is upset about..

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

There is no doubt that a truckload of clay would improve my garden soil, but a truckload of real clay would cost a lot since I had to pay $150 for a truckload of our local "red clay" (which is really red sand). The nearest real clay is probably hundreds of miles away. Even then that is not permanent as our heavy rainfall even washes the minerals out of that. Red clay roads here turn from red to orange to yellow orange over time as the minerals are washed out. I have added several buckets of "red clay" over the years and I am sure it has helped.

Eventhough we have lots of rain we do need to enhance water retention--it can rain 6 inches here in a day and the garden needs watering 3 to 4 days later.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

You live near an ocean use seaweed; heavy mulching I would think helps prevent erosion so does the roots of plants.

The soil here is weird; heavy clay with little organic matter and little sand yet it drains very well. But it'll turn to a brick during the summer without proper mulching. Also wouldn't adding clay to sand or vice versa simply create an adobe when it drys?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Not all fruit trees will produce well when heavily mulched. As a matter of fact, very few of them will produce well when mulched up to the trunk(pretty sure "heavy" mulch falls in that category). I learned this the hard way with citrus...as did Sbl. Here in FL, the humidity will kill most trees with too much mulch. Every climate has different requirements, so there never will be one solution for all!

Permaculturekidd, Your arguments are valid when talking about the fertile soils in the amazon...other than that...I think your point is lost. However, that is my opinion and I am in no way an expert.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

We don't get much seaweed on the beach here-- some years there is a big raft of sargasum that washes ashore, but other than that 1 in 10 yr event the beaches here are pure sand with a few shells.

Mario is right about the mulch-- I do mulch most of my garden and trees--except citrus--they have bare ground under them after I lost several to root rot from mulching.

But mulch alone will not supply the nutrition needed for most plants. My blueberries are a good example of the problem here--my blueberries have a thick layer of mulch--at least 6 inches and I apply a new layer of several inches a yr. I also apply a little ammonium sulfate at bloom time and normally again in June (about 2 oz per tree) . This yr I ran out before I could make the June application--Ace Hardware was out as well, so I was not able to make the June application before the mid season growth spurt--the new growth is very yellow--the mulch has lost all of it's nutritional value.