Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Seems VERY similar to my Jaboticaba trees. Imagine...they are native to Brazil of all places...probably some of the most fertile soil on earth! My jaboticaba trees have several inches of mulch while all my other trees(other than banana) have the mulch no closer than 1 FT from the trunk. Anyways....

MY comparisson may be out of line since blueberries come from up north...but, we are both attempting to grow things out of our natural area... so kudos to us right? :)

I tried growin 'Navajo' blackberries and did not like the taste as opposed to store bought berries. I figured it's because the variety I had was made to grow in my area, not for it's taste, but for it's ability to survive... So, How do you like your blueberries compared to store bought ones?

Be honest now!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I have 17 varieties of blueberries, some that produce as early as late april to as late as late July. Variety has a lot to do with flavor, but another major factor is timing--they get sweeter and sweeter after they turn and are best just before they start to shrivle. Climate can also influence taste--a moderately dry season will produce the best flavor--a really wet season will cause splitting if they are left on after they ripen. Love my blueberries--my favorite fruit!

BTW Mario, UF has developed some very low chill blueberries that might grow in your area, but I am sure you would have to lower the pH of your soil--they like pH 4.5-5.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I would so love to grow Blue Barries but have not tried as my soil PH here is 7.5 are soil is 80% gypsum i mostly take it out of the planting holes an throw it away I've tried amending it but i just cant get the Ph below 6.9 and thats with 4 applications of sulfur and iron a year hardly seems worth it

I know try Potting them up! i could but with the water at a firm 7.0 PH id have to correct every time i watered again it just seems its not meant to be

so in the end i have to learn to like what grows in my neck of the woods or should i say Cati LOL
At least i have Bananas Right?
it accrues to me that when one is talking soil theirs just so much you can do to affect the native soils there are many factors as to why a particular soil is the way it is water seems to me to be the biggest influences as to Ph at least its hard to change something if your are continually give inputs that are contrary to your goal

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

That is very true Damaclese, soils are the result of a lot of different geological, biological, chemical and physical factors including climate. To get the most out of your particular soils requires knowledge and experimentation. The best way to get that knowledge is from a good gardener that has experience with that type of soil, but it is always rewarding to try something new that works. When it comes to pH, in general it is very hard to fight an uphill battle--especially with calcarous soils.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Citrus grow like weeds here; there are literally thousands of citrus trees all over the city, alot not even taken care of but are totally massive.

I read books of fruit trees and people say to water and feed them monthly; which is mind boggling since trees over here don't need water past the first year and after that they can stand the summer droughts tell late september with weather going into the 90's and 100's during late July to mid-Aug every year.

Feeding them fertilizer is even weirder; there are massive trees atleast 4 or 5 decades old in downtown that dump fruit year after year like mad. No one tends to alot of trees in town; were formerly orchard country so walnuts, almonds, citrus, stone fruit; etc... thrive once established all by themselves(a year to 3)

I guess its the soil here; alot of things grow extremely well and there is no need for the miraclegro-type stuff (unless you a flower gardener or your really looking to push the limits of fruiting).

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

A phrase so broad it is vacuous.

Miracle-Gro is a brand name, not an attribute. For example, there are several manufacturers who produce 50-lb bags of certified-organic granular soil conditioner for commercial agriculture from sea-kelp, grain meal, humates, plus a bit of dolomite or similar for buffer. The Scotts Miracle-Gro company is one of them.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I do enjoy your zingers :bananas_b Your speak reminds me of a good friend of mine :)

But seriously I have actually learned something from reading this thread... plus all the statements made, claims dispelled, hyperbole debunked, accusations thrown, etc. make it all worthwhile :2623:

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle of this spectrum of "natural" vs synthetic. I'm starting out with a clay soil about the consistency of a brick. I can't tell you how many cubic feet of compost I've bought in an effort to add some organic material and break up da clay (not to mention bags of steer manure, sand, etc.)... Seeing as how some of my bananas seemed a little nutrient deprived I bought some 13-13-13. I've only added a very small amount to each plant as I didn't want to overdo it, kinda wanted to ease into it. Going entirely natural or "organic" does appeal to me as I do have a 2.5-year old that will hopefully be eating bananas from our backyard within the next couple of years, so I wanna do right by him.... but I also minored in chemistry, so I've got a special place in my heart for synthetics :) I guess like most people I'll find myself somewhere in between until my soil is enriched enough to Go Green:birthdaynana:

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I think you have it exactly right. You feed the soil organic matter--it greatly improves the soil properties. You feed the plant fertilizer--there is nothing in triple 13 that is toxic when taken up by your plants.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Not that there is anything wrong with triple 13, but I will say it again that organic matter like chicken, cow, horse manure, gauno, blood meal, alphalpha meal, etc etc etc, does feed the soil and the plant. Is it as fast acting as trple 13, no it's not, but does it feed the plants and the soil, yes it does. It took years of adding organic matter to my hard packed clay to get the soil I have now, it's not an overnight process. When I first planted I mixed 50/50 with the existing soil. Again I'm not looking down on your choice of chemical fert, just your matter of fact statements that are not true.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

So what have I said that you believe is not true?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

This above qouted statement from you is phrased in such a way that it sounds matter of fact. Nowhere do you mention that organic matter breaks down and feeds the plants. This whole idea of yours that "you have to give the plant comercial fert" is just not true, I don't how else to put it to you. Again I don't care if you or someone else wants use the fert of your choice, but please stop with the missleading matter of fact statements.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

What more could i or any one add to that "so true" what iv learn so far about gardening in my particular part of the world is that its important to remove a good portion of the native soil its such a toxic substance adding tones of organics i add lots of bio char and microsomal as well as trace minerals in the form of Kelp this has been as successfully a formula as i have ever used so I'm sticking to it until something comes along better how ever i still have to apply fertilizers many times more often then most of you. do to the 3 times a day water cycle i have to maintain to keep my plants from burning up and yes i mulch were appropriate not on my citrus i think you would be surprised at the success I've had with my Bananas sure they don't grow as fast as they would in a more tropical environment but they don't do as badly as one would imagine how ever throw experimentation i have found that organic firt just isn't powerfully enough to over come that water cycle but i still use it along with additions of the man mad stuff in a perfect world id go all organic but I'm just one man fighting a climate that has been known to drive certain people madd but I'm always up for advice on the subject and love learning so keep on posting

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

One way to avoid commercial fertilizer is to go out to the public lands (deserts, mountains) and collect the minerals yourself.

Seriously Mitchell, your attempts to create a dichotomy between "organic" and "commercial" seem very strange to me. There is a tremendous amount of overlap.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

There is no tree that will be established in 1 year. Mangos grow insanely fast and are not considered mature until at least 5years! You stated yourself that your area was formerly orchard country..That means those trees were nurtured up until they were abandoned after 15-20 years! The only trees you will see producing with little to no care are just that...decade old trees that were once used for agricultural production.

There are many sapodilla trees lining the road in Coral Gables. They were planted for looks and were cared for as such. They are over a century old and have not produced any fruit in the 30 years I've been around.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I did not say that "organic matter does not break down and feed plants", you just believe I implied it--you can believe anything--I cannot control your mind. I never said "you have to give a plant commercial fertilizer", but my experience has shown me that they will grow much faster and are more productive. In my opinion, organic matter is more important for what it does to the soil, not what nutrients it provides. Some of the plants I grow do not like rich organic soils--citrus and periwinkle, some prefer it --blueberries and bananas, but all of them do better with commercial fertilizer in my experience.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Richard, you need to pay attention to what's being said and by whom in this thread. It is SBL who said he was referring to chemical ferts when he said commercial fert. I asked him directly if that's what he meant and he said yes. I'm doing my best to communicate with him using his terminology. As I said dirrectly to you Richard in another thread, I understand that some commercial ferts are organic. I do actually pay attention unlike people around here.

Now please stop putting words in my mouth and would you also please stop misspelling my name. It's not much to ask for and I've asked you several times. Show a tiny bit of respect please!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Ok, are you really going to make go and fetch your quote proving that you said it? I'm growing tired of you guys spinning this.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Mitchel, I have been paying attention to what you are saying in this thread and throughout this site. You consistantly push for a dichotomy of "organic" vs. "commercial", "organic" vs. "chemical", etc. No such dichotomy exists -- there is a tremendous amount of overlap.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

This is my quote--
"I think you have it exactly right. You feed the soil organic matter--it greatly improves the soil properties. You feed the plant fertilizer--there is nothing in triple 13 that is toxic when taken up by your plants."

Where did I say "organic matter does not feed the plant some nutrients" --Where did I say "you have to feed them commercial fertilizer". I have said they will be more productive with commercial fertilizer, but I have also always said that organic matter is good for most plants--but there are some that do not like it.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Richard, I've stated over and over what I use in my garden. It's all organic material that's derived from composted organic plant and animal matter with no water soluble chemical ferts or synthesized ferts. I also apply minerals that have been mined by man, not made by man. Now if you'd like to come up with a terminoligy for this type of gardening I'd be more than happy to use it.

And thanks for spelling my name correctly, I do appreciate it.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Much earlier in thread and you never replied to my response to it.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

can we all agree that we have are best interests at hart?
i for one respect each and every one of you. I don't need for you to agree or disagree for me to respect you all. Each one of you has brought to this table as it were your unique selfs and for that I'm really grateful. but i sure would like for you'll to see that in each other

I don't think any one at this point is going to convince the other of there position. I commend you all for trying but in the end is it so impotent to be right at the expense of another's feelings? are we a collective mind of spirit? or are we just like all the other garden forums were we kick each other mentally to death. what is this saying to are new Members?

Or are we going to have this thread deleted too?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Minerals are only made by man in Nuclear Reactors--those would be way to expensive to use on gardens.

As for where I said what you believe I said--I could not find it in this entire thread.

Damaclese is right, we all have a common interest--growing plants. We each have different soils and climates to contend with, but if we pay attention and have an open mind we may just learn something new.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Composted organic plant and animal matter contains 2% or more water soluble chemical fertilizers by weight.

You're welcome (chagrin :o)

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I'm just talking about watering; after that the rains seem enough to water the rest of the plants. My grandmother planted a tree in her backyard a long time ago watered it for a little more than a year and quit since it seemed by the end of winter the plant was doing well on its own.


So towith many other trees; there are little almond trees a few feet high that surround the older trees they are only a decade to a few years old with no human intervention at all. Under the highways, out in the sticks, in the creeks, downtown, etc... many edible trees that came to be eithier with human intervention decades ago or the descendants of those trees with little or no help. Even at the abandoned side of school I see a few little trees growing with no one to care for them..

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Pretty much all plants will survive and reproduce without human intervention--they evolved that way and wouldn't be here if they couldn't (with possible exceptions of some of our most highly domesticated plants). The difference is how much they will produce.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Exactly. My grandfather used to toss papaya seeds in the ground all the time and then forget about them. The trees would produce little to no fruit..and the little fruit it did produce...was tasteless.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Here ya go SBL. I was wrong, you said "almost impossible"

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

:rolleyes: Your splitting hairs again and what, still no terminoligy for my growing method?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

No I'm not, you just don't want to admit that the nutrients in the materials you apply contain chemicals.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I'm not deniying it, and honestly I know nothing about it, just what you have said here. What I'm saying is I'm not going to the store and buying big bags of man made water soluble fert and adding pounds of it to my garden. Now please stop putting words in my mouth, again! jeez

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

This is the entire paragraph--my point in that statement was directed at the conditions here--and I did say unless you have a farm lot full of animals. That is because no matter what your source of nutrients is, here it is washed away quiclky. I probably add 50 to 100 wheelbarrow loads of organic material to my compost bed--most of that is then applied to my small garden--the soil is still mainly sand--analysis would probably indicate 5 to 8% organic.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I have said several times in this thread that no one (especially me) is trying to get you to change what you are doing.

At the same time, you have been very critical of people using water solubles fertilizers -- which we keep pointing out to you:
1. are not man made
2. are in the materials you apply in your garden
3. are no more toxic or synthetic than the beer, wine, (and rum?) that you drink.

Further, you keep arguing that there is a dichotomy between "chemical" fertilizers and "organic" fertilizers -- but this is not true. You also argue that there is a dichotomy between "natural" and "synthetic" fertilizers but this also is not true.

If you are looking for an accurate term that describes your methods, call it "gardening".

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Where in thread have I been critical of water soluble ferts? Because I choose not to use them or synthetic ferts that makes me a critic? That's some strange reasoning on your part. I think your being a little overly sensitive.

I have repeatedly stated that I understand there are organic chemical ferts. I just choose not to knowingly use them. If there are some (2% as you claim) in my composted organic chicken poop than so be it. It's the best I can do to make myself happy about the way I grow my garden. How many times do I need to say this to you? My choice not to use them is not a dichotomy, it's a personal choice. What's so hard to understand about that?

I'm tired of talking to you, I've said the same thing so many times it's just getting frustrating for me. I posted in this thread originally about the evils of the product Roundup and was able to prove my point. I'll leave it at that.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Actually Mitchel, you have stated over and over again that composted organic plant material does not contain water soluble chemical fertilizers. This is not true.

You have also stated that you have made these choices because to avoid health issues with "chemicals" -- which is a direct criticism and false dichotomy.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I will say that I use my compost AND water soluble chemical ferts such as miracle grow & banana fuel. I take it that when someone says they don't use 'water soluble chemical ferts', then they DON'T use this added chemical ferts.
Richard, why do you 'flame' people with useless information that you often times make up? You go out of your way to piss ppl off. Are you trying to get this thread locked like you've done before?

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

When you call something a chemical, you're saying that it is substance which contains a certain chemical composition.

For example, if you take water the chemical H2O (water) from rain water or make it yourself through a reaction, the output is still the chemical H2O. Therefore, the chemical H2O is a chemical regardless of the source. The same goes for every type of fertilizer. Regardless of source, they are all chemicals.

It is important to use science when discussing this type of subject. Without science, you're going to end up with a bunch of opinions that will lead nowhere.

There is no difference between what the plant takes up between "chemical" fertilizer and "organic" fertilizer.

For example, nitrogen is taken up mainly in the form of NH4+ (Ammonium) and NO3- (Nitrate) with very little taken up as (NH2)2CO (Urea). These chemicals are the same whether they come from organic material or if they are applied with a "chemical" fertilizer.

In the end, you end up with the same exact thing. There is nothing toxic about "chemical" fertilizer.

Basically, "chemical" fertilizers just contain highly concentrated forms of fertilizer. They directly provide nutrients to the plant and the soil. They also give you the ability to give the plants nutrients when the plant needs them.

Organic matter improves many aspects of the soil but it also can do harm when overused. Like I've mentioned many times, much of the fertilizer goes unused since the nutrients are provided in the ratio required for the plant (or never required in the first place. Organic material also tends to be acidic which can have negative impacts on plants requiring higher pH soils. Copper is also locked up by organic material.




"Chemical" fertilizer will be taken up by soil organisms. They will take it up much easier than plant roots. "Chemical" fertilizer feeds both the plant and the "soil".

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

You mean organic materials are broken down by soil organisms into usable chemical salts that the plants can use? Yes that's true.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Well said Turtile!

I used to work on a commercial dairy and I can tell you there are things in manure that you would not want on your food, I'm not saying it is all bad but you should know your source.

If you want to see that warning from a different source try this Environmental News article:Livestock Antibiotics Can End Up in Human Foods

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Yes, soil organism are made of these chemicals. The elements must be present in the first place for them to exist. When the carbon level becomes too high, soil organisms will lock up nutrients such as nitrogen.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Wow SBL, thanks for posting that link. I did not know thatfarmers give those antibiotics w/ hormones to all the cows. My farmer friend raised cattle for over 50 years & never gave antibiotics unless they were sick & then they were separated.
I also read couple years ago, that some cattle farmers down south were told to gradually mix corn in the cow poop & mix with the hay that they eat. Then, gradually add more poop as they get used to it - to cut the cost of feeding them. The farmer that wrote of it (on another forum) from I think TX, said he wouldn't do it but some were.
Next time I get horse or cow manure I'm gonna ask about all this. Thanks for this info.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Boy is there a rant brewing in me...

What we put in/on the food we grow...conventional or organic...
People worried about all what goes in their food & bodies.

Do you see the junk that most people eat?
What about HFC??? Do we really know what is marketing & truth or not?
Do we care about the production/processing of the food that we eat - in that we avoid all enriched, vitamin added mass-produced items?
Do we really know if we are eating genetically altered plants & what it/if it will do(anything) to us?
Do we REALLY know if we are eating cloned meat or not??
IS IT GOING TO KILL US IF WE DO????
We need to start a health Forum, or you guys need to post the links on all this stuff so the Gov't knows that we know...

Oh...Hold on...they do & they don't care - unless they can make a buck off of it, patent it or start another program.
OR...they're getting a kickback from a manufacturer that can pump so much $$$ into lawsuits to bury the truth.
Marketing, hidden agendas, lies, manipulation....
More needless arguing about menial crap that isn't going to kill us any faster than the fluoride or chemical levels in our water. (Read on that if you want scary.)

Guess what....
No one gets out of life alive. Is the magic of the universe.
I do what I do, you do what you do and they do what they do.
We are all called individuals. We must live & commune together on this planet until it is no more.

Do what you have to do...conventional or organic......just let's get along & agree to disagree, whichever side you choose.
Live & let live & let's get on with taking care of ourselves(in whatever way we deem for ourselves), raising our children & our bananas!!

Rant over...Back to your normally fired-up, arguementative, un-derailed program (thread). ~Cheryl

P.S. - I understand the 'vs.' regarding this thread, which is to encourage the discussion and presentation of the pros/cons of each method...
Would just be nice to see more 'Discussion & Presentation' than 'Bashing & Finger-pointing'

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

Cheryl, you are an epistemologist!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

What the info in this link doesn't tell you is that it's rBGH (growth hormone) made by Monsanto that makes the cows sick and in need of the antibiotics. Another fact they leave out is that feeding a cow corn it's whole life also makes them sick and in need of antibiotics. You see cows have rumens and can not properly digest corn/grain. They can be safely finished on corn in a feedlot awaiting slaughter, but not for their whole lives. Basically the term we all know from the beef advertising campaigns "Corn Fed" is total BS! Another rather important thing it doesn't mention is that we now have pharmaceuticals in our ground water. Yay!

Good clean organic steer and chicken manure is still available but you may have to make some friends to find it, or make your own.


Here is a facinating true story written my Michael Pollan and published in the NY Times in 2002 called "Power Steer" If your not up to speed on the beef industry it's a real eye opener.

...........Michael Pollan...........

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I already tried this approach it didn't work
Paulo

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I don't think the article said that all farmers give antibiotics (w/wo hormones) to all cows, but depending on the needs or the problem they may dose the entire herd as a preventive and/or treatment.

It was yrs ago when I worked at the dairy farm--one thing we did was fog the milking barn with pesticides like DDT or Chlordane to kill the flies (the floor would end up with a solid layer of flies). All of this was pushed out and washed down with the manure at the end of the milking shift. Of course, DDT and Chlordane are no longer used, but I'm sure the fly problem is still there--I don't know what they use now. Pretty much all farm animals need wormers every yr or so, depending on the parasite there are various chemicals that are used--the only one I can think of is pyranyl palmoate--not very toxic, but certainly synthetic.

Again I am not saying don't use manures, but you might want to know a little more about your source.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

To those who feel the thread is getting out of hand...

How else would we learn but through a passionate expression of ideas? It seems some of the most passionate and fiery posts have been left by those who want to believe that convential and organic are indeed polar opposites. I think it's clear that most "chemical" ferts have been given a bad name for no reason. If used properly, they are no more harmful than anything else that we eat. I also feel the "organic" craze is largely overblown. Much like the Atkins diet when it first came out... Why would you think switching rice or pasta for cheese and bacon would be a good thing???

Patty, Richards to the point approach and use of vocabulary can irritate some. I frequently find myself googling words!..However, I really don't think he means any harm.

As stated previously, the purpose of this thread was to state the pro's and cons of each method, and I've seen plenty of that in the close to 150 posts..(although it was actually started as propoganda for some stupid site...but w/e).. Thanks to all for a great discussion!

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I was not condeming the article, it's a good article, just pointing out that there is a reason for the antibiotics in the manure. Of course there are lots of farmers who have chosen not to use the growth hormone but most do feed corn which again leads to antibiotics. You are correct that you have to know the source if you want to avoid it.

Oh and about the worming, we buy organic grass fed bison that has never been wormed. They use Diatomaceous earth on them.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I couldn't disagree more. Regardless how you feel about the different growing methods you can be assured that there are no GMO's in organic food. That to me is something that I highly value seeing how Monsanto was able to get their way in regards to the lack of GMO labeling in this country.

Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)
 

I agree Mario, but one thing I have not gotten from this thread is any reason to believe that commercial fertilizers contain anything that is harmful--show me some evidence.

As for buying organic foods at the grocery--that is a different subject--I can understand peoples concerns about commercial pesticides.