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Old 03-01-2017, 09:14 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aruzinsky View Post
Look for local bargains on LED bulbs for household lighting such as this one:



The $0.99 bulb on the left is rated at 1600 lumens and 14 watts for a luminous efficiency of 114 lumens/watt which exceeds that of any fluorescent bulb. And, even at equal lumens, these type of LED bulbs are better than CFL for plants because more light energy is produced between 620 and 700 nm for which the human eye is insensitive but plants strongly utilize. Fluorescent bulbs typically have a sharp spike at 611 nm (orange-red) and almost no output at longer wavelengths.
Call me crazi but.

Is a 2700k lamp a little short for a grow lamp .
While a balanced 2700k-6500k cfl setup is more suitable for optimal growth and flower.


I would balance the nm with a 6500k spiral @68 watts 8 inches above the plant

Are inexpensive household 2700k led lamps better than alternative comparable cfls other than energy usage
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:40 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aruzinsky View Post
lumens
Lumens is a measure of human perception of brightness. In professional horticulture, source intensity is always measured in Watts.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:29 AM   #43 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

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Lumens is a measure of human perception of brightness. In professional horticulture, source intensity is always measured in Watts.
Not exactly. Most typically, the power output (watts) of photoactive radiation (PAR) is used in professional horticulture. And, scientists often use photon flux (PPF). See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photos...tive_radiation

I mentioned "lumens" only because the PAR value of most bulbs is not specified whereas the lumen rating is. All else equal, the bulb with the highest lumens is best. But, as I previously mentioned, at equal lumens, a household LED bulb has a higher PAR output than fluorescent. This is the typical spectrum of a household LED bulb:



This is the typical spectrum of a household fluorescent:



Compare with the action spectrum of an average plant:



And, you can see that the LED has much more PAR between 620 and 700 nm.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:46 AM   #44 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
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Call me crazi but.

Is a 2700k lamp a little short for a grow lamp .
While a balanced 2700k-6500k cfl setup is more suitable for optimal growth and flower.


I would balance the nm with a 6500k spiral @68 watts 8 inches above the plant

Are inexpensive household 2700k led lamps better than alternative comparable cfls other than energy usage
You can buy daylight LED bulbs for household lighting but you will also get a proportionately higher dose of green light with the bulb. But, here is what I did:


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Old 03-02-2017, 11:26 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Not exactly.
Yes exactly.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of "spectrum". LED's produce single frequencies. Sure you can gang up LED's at say, 5nm intervals but still in physics we would never consider that a spectrum. Instead, it is a series of point frequencies. This is why the graph you provided for the "typical spectrum of a household LED bulb" is incorrect. An accurate graph (or measurement) would be a series of vertical bars with no lines connecting frequency point to frequency point.

Now since PAR is a measurement of fitness (similar to least-squares) of one spectrum to another it is completely inapplicable to LED sources.

Further, I have never recommended "a household fluorescent" for plants -- nor would I. Instead I've specifically recommended 6500 Kelvin bulbs installed at a power density of 1200 Watts per square meter of projection -- the projection surface measured one meter from the source.

With regard to lumens, it is measured by flux of the green portion of the spectrum which plants do not use. So "more lumens" never means anything of use for judging benefit to plants. However, I noticed the term lumens is highly touted in head shops.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:02 PM   #46 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
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Yes exactly.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of "spectrum". LED's produce single frequencies. Sure you can gang up LED's at say, 5nm intervals but still in physics we would never consider that a spectrum. Instead, it is a series of point frequencies. This is why the graph you provided for the "typical spectrum of a household LED bulb" is incorrect. An accurate graph (or measurement) would be a series of vertical bars with no lines connecting frequency point to frequency point.

Now since PAR is a measurement of fitness (similar to least-squares) of one spectrum to another it is completely inapplicable to LED sources.

Further, I have never recommended "a household fluorescent" for plants -- nor would I. Instead I've specifically recommended 6500 Kelvin bulbs installed at a power density of 1200 Watts per square meter of projection -- the projection surface measured one meter from the source.

With regard to lumens, it is measured by flux of the green portion of the spectrum which plants do not use. So "more lumens" never means anything of use for judging benefit to plants. However, I noticed the term lumens is highly touted in head shops.
You are dead wrong and you pontificate without presenting verifiable references which I consider unethical.

Technically, household LED bulbs are fluorescent but we don't call them "fluorescent" to avoid confusion with traditional fluorescent bulbs. Traditional fluorescent bulbs are coated with phosphors that convert ultraviolet light to longer wavelengths. Similarly, household LED bulbs contain blue LEDs that are coated with phosphors that convert part of the blue light to longer wavelengths. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor#White_LEDs

And, note that unlike you, I present verifiable references to back up my statements.

And, you can buy chips consisting of blue LEDs coated with special phosphors just for growing plants, e.g., see 100W 50W 30W 20W 10W 3W 380NM-840NM Full Spectrum High Power LED Chip Grow Light | eBay

Here is the spectrum on the left (ignore the one on the right because it is wrong):


Incidentally, the most efficient light sources that you can buy (as opposed to a laboratory curiosity) are blue LED chips which are about 52% efficient (watts/watt). In contrast, a traditional fluorescent bulb is typically 22% efficient. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluore...inous_efficacy

and note:

"whereas typical fluorescent lamps convert about 22% of the power input to visible white light."
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:12 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

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You are dead wrong and you pontificate without presenting verifiable references which I consider unethical.
I'm the reference. Sorry you missed out on the undergraduate and graduate courses I taught.
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Old 03-03-2017, 12:51 PM   #48 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

Getting back to objectivity, there exist direct LED replacements for T5 fluorescent tubes. Although I would never use them because they are unnecessarily costly, some have been empirically proven to grow lettuce better than fluorescent at a lower wattage in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KcJf1Tbmbg


Notice in the video that the LED T5 tube is visually less blue than the fluorescent.

This is the Spectral Power Density (SPD) of the LED tube in the video:


which was from this PDF: https://www.transcendlighting.com/up...rview_spec.pdf

The SPD of the Transcend LED tube is not very different than that for a 2700 K A19 LED bulb. Two 14 watt A19 bulbs can be bought for $2 whereas I don't know what the Transcend tube costs because sellers are sold out:
https://uedata.amazon.com/LED-High-O.../dp/B01BEBJQ30

Anyway, there is a glut of other brands available.

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Old 03-03-2017, 02:05 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aruzinsky View Post
lettuce
We're talking about "Container Grown Banana Plants" -- not lettuce.

For indoor "Container Grown Banana Plants", what spectrum and what Watts/meter^2 are you recommending?
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Old 03-03-2017, 04:08 PM   #50 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
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We're talking about "Container Grown Banana Plants" -- not lettuce.

For indoor "Container Grown Banana Plants", what spectrum and what Watts/meter^2 are you recommending?
My growth chamber was used to start tomato seedlings but I briefly grew musa 'Truly Tiny' and musa 'Little Princes' tissue culture plugs in that and they did fine. I used ten 8.5 watt 2700 K LED bulbs and six 10 watt blue LED chips for a total of 145 input watts to cover a 4 ft.^2 area. That translates to 390 input watts/meter^2. I do not recommend it but I call it "more than adequate."

Tomato plants 26 days from planting seeds:


Incidentally, those bulbs cost me $2.50 each back in 2015.

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Old 03-03-2017, 04:27 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I briefly grew musa 'Truly Tiny' and musa 'Little Princes' tissue culture plugs in that and they did fine.
We're not talking about propagating plugs, but rather sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage.

Now, either you know or don't know what is prescribed for bananas. If you do, please provide what you believe is the ideal spectrum (in terms of black body temperature, or Gaussian with given means & half spectrum width, or a Poisson distribution, etc.) and the desired flux in terms of Watts/meter^2 (projected area at 1 meter from source).
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Old 03-03-2017, 05:45 PM   #52 (permalink)
 
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We're not talking about propagating plugs, but rather sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage.
Wrong. The topic of this thread was determined by the OP who did not ask for "sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage." For your convenience, here is the original quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by eharriett View Post
I'm about a month from taking my new banana tree in for the Ohio winter. I live in a home where there isn't too much all day light in the house and I'd like my tree to continue to grow.. I've got a room with very little light, but it always gets super warm during the winter, so it will be a nice room for the banana. I wanted to add a couple of grow lights to keep it going as well.

Can't seem to find any threads about this on the site, so I wanted to ask some recommendations. I know they can get expensive, into the hundreds or even thousands of dollars. I was hoping for something significantly more economical that will do the job for the banana. And just the banana.

I found this on Amazon as an example. Any idea if a couple of these around the tree would work?

https://amzn.com/B00GNWK2XO

Any other ideas for grow lights that banana trees thrive under during the winter?
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Old 03-03-2017, 07:58 PM   #53 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

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Originally Posted by aruzinsky View Post
Wrong. The topic of this thread was determined by the OP who did not ask for "sustained indoor growth of bananas through the fruiting stage." For your convenience, here is the original quote:
Yeah. Uhh....... As the guy who originally started it and GOT HIS ANSWER I've been following the way this thread has gone. I'm cool with the science, BTW.

However, I've got one plant I wanted to keep growing in the winter. My solution was but a MH 400w bulb, hang it over the plant, and have it on during the day. The plant has grown quite nicely. My only complaint is my electric bill has shot up by about $25/month since I started it. Happy with results but not the increased cost. However, I **did** get the results, however costly, that I wanted.
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:26 AM   #54 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eharriett View Post
Yeah. Uhh....... As the guy who originally started it and GOT HIS ANSWER I've been following the way this thread has gone. I'm cool with the science, BTW.

However, I've got one plant I wanted to keep growing in the winter. My solution was but a MH 400w bulb, hang it over the plant, and have it on during the day. The plant has grown quite nicely. My only complaint is my electric bill has shot up by about $25/month since I started it. Happy with results but not the increased cost. However, I **did** get the results, however costly, that I wanted.
Good. Then you shouldn't mind slight topic digressions after achieving satisfactory answers to your questions.

In my experience, sun loving plants can grow better under artificial light at a lower light intensity than under natural light in an unshaded greenhouse. I suspect that is because plants under artificial light do not have to adapt to light fluctuations such as caused by clouds and the changing position of sun in the sky. Also, all else equal, plants grow better under diffuse light that casts no shadows such as provided in a reflective growth chamber. Also, some plants benefit from longer light periods, e.g., lights on 24/7, than found in nature. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_light_integral. (I don't know whether musa benefit from longer light periods.) That is not to say that the plants wouldn't grow faster in diffuse, unfluctuating light of the intensity of direct sunlight. My point is that artificial light of the intensity of direct sunlight is not needed to match or exceed growth under natural light.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:24 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I have an indoor Arboretum. 14' long X 7' wide and 21' high.
I am using 6500K, T-5- four foot tubes (6) and I did not see any increase in Electric bill. Lights are on 3 hours in morning and 3 hours in the evening. God provides any additional lighting. I Bought the lights on 1000 bulbs at $20+ each. I did not want the higher electric bill and did not want the additional heat.
Banana plants are putting out new leaves every 7 - 10 days.
I just started to fertilize them.

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Old 03-29-2017, 08:45 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aruzinsky View Post
You are dead wrong and you pontificate without presenting verifiable references which I consider unethical.

Technically, household LED bulbs are fluorescent but we don't call them "fluorescent" to avoid confusion with traditional fluorescent bulbs. Traditional fluorescent bulbs are coated with phosphors that convert ultraviolet light to longer wavelengths. Similarly, household LED bulbs contain blue LEDs that are coated with phosphors that convert part of the blue light to longer wavelengths. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor#White_LEDs

And, note that unlike you, I present verifiable references to back up my statements.

And, you can buy chips consisting of blue LEDs coated with special phosphors just for growing plants, e.g., see 100W 50W 30W 20W 10W 3W 380NM-840NM Full Spectrum High Power LED Chip Grow Light | eBay

Here is the spectrum on the left (ignore the one on the right because it is wrong):


Incidentally, the most efficient light sources that you can buy (as opposed to a laboratory curiosity) are blue LED chips which are about 52% efficient (watts/watt). In contrast, a traditional fluorescent bulb is typically 22% efficient. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluore...inous_efficacy

and note:

"whereas typical fluorescent lamps convert about 22% of the power input to visible white light."
I will admit that I am new to this Banana growing than most of you.
But I can tell you that LED lighting of any kind is not the same as fluorescent lighting. They are totally different. There are however fluorescent bulbs that are fitted into incandescent fixtures (CFL).
Incandescent lights have a filament and work in a vacuum environment.
Fluorescent lights have two electrodes (one on either end) the phosphor powder, coated along the inside of the glass and is in a positive argon filled tube along with a minute amount of mercury.
LED's or light-emitting diode, emits light from a piece of solid matter called a semi-conductor. It does not need a phosphor powder or any other component. They create very little heat, it takes quite a few to get to the 6500K range for adequate growth spectrum.
It is not the Phosphor that generates the light spectrum.

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Old 03-29-2017, 09:53 AM   #57 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

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it takes quite a few to get to the 6500K range for adequate growth spectrum.
It is not the Phosphor that generates the light spectrum.

Craig
I am only talking about LED bulbs for household lighting and not LEDs in general. Without exception, these LED bulbs contain only blue LEDs coated with phosphors. An obvious question is "Why not buy phosphors and coat blue LEDs yourself as part of a DIY project?" The answer is that the phosphors are expensive and sellers have large minimum orders. For example, see

https://secure40.securewebsession.co...ducts_conv.php

If I were a billionaire, I would coat LEDs for fun, but, sadly, I am not.
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Old 07-01-2017, 05:38 PM   #58 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Grow light recommendations?

If anyone is interested in quality real full spectrum LEDs, take a look at YujiLEDs VTC series.
They are UV based LEDs with 3 different phosphorus applied.

I had many difficulties growing aquarium plants under normal LED lights, but when I have fitted these and even though I have really low brightness the plants are growing excessively and very healthy and also there is no algae outbreaks!

The only problem of Yuji VTC LEDs is price.

I am using a mix of 2700K, 5000K and 5600K, and I need to further test each color temperature for its effect on plant/algae growth.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:24 AM   #59 (permalink)
 
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Richard:
Lumens is a measure of human perception of brightness. In professional horticulture, source intensity is always measured in Watts.

I agree, that giving brightness only in lumens is stupid. Full spectrum (300-800nm) graph should be given with each light to be able to calculate any brightness standard.

Now to theory, there are MORE THAN ONE spectrum to lumen conversion standards, which makes brightness given with only lumens and no standard allready obsolete (not to talk about cheap lumen meters that calculate it based only on one peak value!). When we were converting at out faculty we used CIE 1978 standard, so probably this is used the most?!

IMAGE: CIE 1978 standard:


And for me even PAR is ridiculous to use as each individual plant has its own spectrum absorption and reflection characteristic. The only literature I was able to find to measure each plant's individual "PAR" is one really old book from times that they did not have electronic spectrometers.

On wiki Luminosity function is written about converting. All one needs to do to convert from real spectrum to lumen is to integrate alongside spectrum graph from cca 400nm to 750nm using CIE 1978 curve and multiply with 683.002lm/W if using relative CIE 1978 graph.

To convert from spectrum to PAR, different curve is used (at stated above in one post), but I do not know exactly which units and maximum value is used for PAR.
IMAGE: PAR conversion:


Have a nice day,
Ziga

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Old 07-02-2017, 11:18 AM   #60 (permalink)
 
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When we were converting at out faculty we used CIE 1978 standard, so probably this is used the most?!
No. From https://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/L...le-Chapter.pdf

"This function is referred to as the CIE 1931 V(λ) function. It is the current photometric standard in the United States."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiGa:S View Post
The only literature I was able to find to measure each plant's individual "PAR" is one really old book from times that they did not have electronic spectrometers.

...

To convert from spectrum to PAR, different curve is used (at stated above in one post), but I do not know exactly which units and maximum value is used for PAR.
You are incorrectly calling yield flux, "PAR".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photos...tive_radiation

"There are two common measures of photosynthetically active radiation: photosynthetic photon flux (PPF) and yield photon flux (YPF). PPF values all photons from 400 to 700 nm equally, while YPF weights photons in the range from 360 to 760 nm based on plant's photosynthetic response.[6]"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiGa:S View Post
IMAGE: PAR conversion:
This is some sort of average that some committee pulled out of their ass.

Here are photosynthetic action spectra for 33 different plant species:







Usages of such curves and PAR concepts are inaccurate because:

1. They ignore the Emerson Enhancement effect, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerson_effect

2. Plants are often grown in reflective environments such as growth chambers. A plant within a perfectively reflective environment with absorb 100% of all wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. Therefore an imperfect reflective environment will tend to flatten the photosynthetic response to various wavelengths by an unknown amount.

3. Plants adapt to lighting conditions over time after which they exhibit different photosynthetic action spectra.

Last edited by aruzinsky : 07-02-2017 at 11:20 AM.
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