Musa Pisang Ceylon - Page 4

Richard · 12-15-2014, 02:24 PM

I'd like to hear more from people about their experiences growing the plant and their perception of the taste of the fruit.

Cikas33 · 12-15-2014, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

It's also a beautiful plant that grows well here 5 miles from the cool Pacific coast in zone 10b. It's not as stocky as Namwa and needs a bit more support, but otherwise trouble-free in my location.

I agree. It is very beautiful musa. I like that bronze color of Pisang Ceylon.
It looks very different from other musa cultivars I have.

PR-Giants · 12-15-2014, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Read the links that you posted and you will see that BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

Really!?

Don't be silly.

That paper was written over 20 years ago.

Look through your links for a paper titled

"Characterisation of Banana streak Mysore virus and evidence

that its DNA is integrated in the B genome of cultivated Musa"

"We did not include cv. ‘Mysore’ in our Southern hybridisation assay, but based on the results obtained using

cv. ‘Pisang Ceylan’

a member of the Mysore subgroup of cultivars, it is likely that BSMysV DNA is also integrated in the genome of cv. ‘Mysore’."

Benham E. L. Lockhart : Department of Plant Pathology : University of Minnesota

Southern blotting was named after Edward M. Southern who developed this procedure at Edinburgh University.

PR-Giants · 12-15-2014, 03:11 PM

When you see FHIA-07 & 09, you should realize you chart is old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

Like I said, Resistant and immune is the same.

You are speaking about partial immunity or partial resistance.

Animals and plants with partial immunity or partial resistance can get diseases in weakened form.

Pisang Ceylon is immune. It can not get that virus. There is no recorded case of Pisang Ceylon with BSV. Deliberate attempts to cause infection were unsuccessful

That is the whole point of that cultivar and main difference from Mysore.

Like I said biology and medicine is my field.

''Immune'' is only official term for plant and animal disease resistance.

Your roses are not resistant, they are just partially resistant if they show symptoms of the disease.

Cikas33 · 12-15-2014, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

When you see FHIA-07 & 09, you should realize you chart is old.

It is not important how old it is or not.

It is a valid genetic test. Test showed that Pisang Ceylon is negative. It is free of BSV in its genome.

Cikas33 · 12-15-2014, 03:34 PM

Another genetic test...

PR-Giants · 12-15-2014, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

It is not important how old it is or not.

It is a valid genetic test. Test showed that Pisang Ceylon is negative. It is free of BSV in its genome.

Actually it is important because the testing procedures became more accurate.

You keep posting charts based on the old test results done by Dr. Ben Lockhart , who is also credited with improving the testing procedure and published a paper a decade later confirming that BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Read the links that you posted and you will see that BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

Really!?

Don't be silly.

That paper was written over 20 years ago.

Look through your links for a paper titled

"Characterisation of Banana streak Mysore virus and evidence

that its DNA is integrated in the B genome of cultivated Musa"

"We did not include cv. ‘Mysore’ in our Southern hybridisation assay, but based on the results obtained using

cv. ‘Pisang Ceylan’

a member of the Mysore subgroup of cultivars, it is likely that BSMysV DNA is also integrated in the genome of cv. ‘Mysore’."

Benham E. L. Lockhart : Department of Plant Pathology : University of Minnesota

Southern blotting was named after Edward M. Southern who developed this procedure at Edinburgh University.

Cikas33 · 12-15-2014, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Actually it is important because the testing procedures became more accurate.

You keep posting charts based on the old test results done by Dr. Ben Lockhart , who is also credited with improving the testing procedure and published a paper a decade later confirming that BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

Nope, my charts came from 3 different sources.

That chart above is from 2000. Done by ''International Institute of Tropical Agriculture'' ( from Nigeria ) with assistance of Jonathan H. Crouch.

Chart before that one is from 2003. Belgium research.

So all testing confirmed that Pisang Ceylon does not have parts of BSV in its genome, but one that used tissue culture plant in one hybridization process ( and it is also stated that tissue culture plants can easily be contaminated with BSV genes in the process of creating them, so all new synthetic hybrids have BSV in genes ). Also that article from 2005. is not about Pisang Ceylon, but about Mysore ( to explore why this cultivar is so susceptible to BSV ). That whole sentence was pulled out of the contest by you ( as stated in article all Mysore bananas are sick, it was impossible to find healthy one, but Pisang Ceylon is healthy, so that plant is used in hybridization process ).
Also acording to that 2005 article BSV genese are in genome of all musa hybrid cultivars with ''B'' chromosomes ( so according to them all AAB, AABB, AAAB, ABB musa cultivars have parts of BSV genome integrated in their genome ).

And what is the most important, Pisang Ceylon is immune to BSV. In all tests it never express BSV.

Also, as I can see, this debate is not going anywhere. I would like to return on the topic. And that is progress of my Musa Pisang Ceylon... thank you..

PR-Giants · 12-18-2014, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

Also, as I can see, this debate is not going anywhere.

Don't be silly, this was never a debate.

The debate ended a decade ago when they discovered that BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

That's why you've been unable to find current data to support your beliefs and have had to resort to using the old data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

Nope, my charts came from 3 different sources.

At least you were able to realize that your sources used the old testing procedure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

That whole sentence was pulled out of the contest by you ( as stated in article all Mysore bananas are sick, it was impossible to find healthy one, but Pisang Ceylon is healthy, so that plant is used in hybridization process ).

Nothing I wrote was taken out of context.

Their reasoning for not using a cv 'Mysore' does not change the fact that the

cv 'Pisang Ceylan' tested positive for having the BSMysV integrated in it's genome.

How you interpreted "as healthy plants were not available" is comical.

All cv 'Mysore' bananas are not sick.

The Mysores in their possession had already expressed symptoms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

thank you..

de nada

Cikas33 · 12-18-2014, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Don't be silly, this was never a debate.

The debate ended a decade ago when they discovered that BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.
That's why you've been unable to find current data to support your beliefs and have had to resort to using the old data.

At least you were able to realize that your sources used the old testing procedure.

Nothing I wrote was taken out of context.

Their reasoning for not using a cv 'Mysore' does not change the fact that the

cv 'Pisang Ceylan' tested positive for having the BSMysV integrated in it's genome.
How you interpreted "as healthy plants were not available" is comical.

All cv 'Mysore' bananas are not sick.
The Mysores in their possession had already expressed symptoms.

de nada

I agree, it is not debate when one persons constantly trolls topics and impose just their opinion on others.
I already said what I had to say, and I stand behind each of my statements.

So there is no need for me to repeat everything all over again to person that hears only itself.
So yes..

PR-Giants · 12-18-2014, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

I agree

If you had stopped there, you would have been correct.

I doubt you're really a biologist, but if you are then you gotta be the world's dumbest biologist.

Try to understand this.

It is common knowledge in the scientific community that the BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

I speak with many banana scientists on a regular basis and when I have a question I call an expert. I've spoken with some of the scientists that wrote the papers you're quoting from and what I wrote is not my opinion, it's just the facts.

Cikas33 · 12-18-2014, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

If you had stopped there, you would have been correct.

I doubt you're really a biologist, but if you are then you gotta be the world's dumbest biologist.

Try to understand this.

It is common knowledge in the scientific community that the BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

I speak with many banana scientists on a regular basis and when I have a question I call an expert. I've spoken with some of the scientists that wrote the papers you're quoting from and what I wrote is not my opinion, it's just the facts.

Now you started to insult to. Very classy of you.

I really do not care do you belive me or not. I do not belive anything you said without a proof.

To something be proven scientific fact, one research is not enough. Research must be repeated at least in one different laboratory with a different team of scientists. If different team receives the same results, then we can speak about facts.

In science everything must be repeated to be confirmed.

You there have only one test, not confirmed with other laboratory.
All other tests had different result. For example test done in Belgium only one year earlier.

Also that test did not even confirmed that Mysore has BSMysV is integrated in the genome ( they did not even use Mysore ). Also that test did not even show that BSMysV genome as a whole is integrated in musa genes, only small portions ( fragments ) of BSMysV genome.

Also like I said they used Tissue culture plants ( method that is the main cause for BSV spreading )

As for Mysore. All Mysore plants are sick. All of them have episomal ( dormant ) BSV in cells. But not all of them express BSV symptoms. And not all of them equally strong symptoms.
A healthy, uninfected Musa Mysore does not exist.

But I'm glad you finally realized and learned that Musa Mysore and Musa Pisang Ceylon are two different cultivars.

harveyc · 12-18-2014, 10:37 PM

Please be civil in the discussions on this and other topics.

Also, consider if your post is really accomplishing anything more at this point or just entrenching further to continue arguing. Points seem to have been made already and no progress seems likely, so it appears to just drop it.

Also, definitely no name-calling. Got it?

Cikas33 · 12-19-2014, 11:52 AM

They are looking good considering that Christmas is just around the corner ( December 19. )

PR-Giants · 12-19-2014, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe15

'Goldfinger' has BSV in it's genome because it is an AAAB. Every single B genome tested so far has BSV sequences, even wild M. balbisiana. Every single edible banana with a B genome also has it. There are even some integrated virus sequences in M. acuminata. It is more a matter of if it is expressed or not.

As of 2014, it is still common knowledge in the scientific community that the BSMysV is integrated in the genome of the Pisang Ceylan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

In science everything must be repeated to be confirmed..

The tests have been repeated and confirmed many times over the past decade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

A healthy, uninfected Musa Mysore does not exist.

But I'm glad you finally realized and learned that Musa Mysore and Musa Pisang Ceylon are two different cultivars.

I grow the 'Pisang Ceylan', 'Mysore', and other cultivars in the Mysore subgroup, all of them have been healthy and none have ever expressed symptoms, but they all still have the BSMysV integrated in their genome.

PR-Giants · 01-12-2015, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cikas33

Pisang Ceylon is immune. It can not get that virus. There is no recorded case of Pisang Ceylon with BSV. Deliberate attempts to cause infection were unsuccessful

Like I said biology and medicine is my field.

2015 Update

I had a follow up conversation this morning with the virologist that conducted the tests in many of those studies. The main discussion pertained to the FHIA-21, but I did ask "can a tissue cultured Pisang Ceylan express BSMysV ?"

Answer : "It can and it has."

The more generations you get beyond the tissue culture event, the lower your risks become.

When purchasing a banana with a B genome, a pup is a better choice than a tissue culture, in regards to Banana Streak Virus.

I am very happy with the bunch produced by the Mysore pup I received.

Cikas33 · 01-13-2015, 08:24 PM

Any actual proof of that?
We only have your word.

I only belive in proofs. And there is no a single recorded case of Pisang Ceylon with BSV.
In fact, all tests showed that Pisang Ceylon never express BSV. Pisang Ceylon does not have episomal BSV in cells.

In other hand all Mysore plants have episomal ( dormant ) BSV in cells. That is not the same as parts of BSV genes in musa genes. Mysore has both parts of BSV in genes and episomal ( dormant ) BSV in cells.
It means that all Mysore have actual virus in cells ( not just genes ). So all Mysore are sick. Because all of them are the same sick clone.
Just not all of them equally strong in expressing symptoms. Just like Herpes simpleks in humans. Most humans have Herpes simpleks virus. But they express symptoms only when immune system is weakened.

BSV is not lethal for Mysore. In most cases it only reduce yield for 5-30%.
So it is only problem for commercial growers.

Your Mysore is also sick ( like all other ). Just not expressing symptoms strong. If there are no obvious symptoms, it does not mean that plant is not sick ( contaminated ).

Cikas33 · 01-13-2015, 08:44 PM

Two different things...

Quote:

Episomal latency refers to the use of genetic episomes during latency. In this type, viral genes are stabilized floating in the cytoplasm or nucleus as distinct objects, both as linear or lariat structures. Episomal latency is more vulnerable to ribozymes or host foreign gene degradation than provirus latency.

Quote:

Proviral latency
A provirus is a virus genome that is integrated into the DNA of a host cell.

Advantages include automatic host cell division results in replication of the virus's genes, and the fact that it is nearly impossible to remove an integrated provirus from an infected cell without killing the cell.[

Disadvantages include the need to enter the nucleus (and the need for packaging proteins that will allow for that) and increased difficulty in maintaining the latency.

Musa Mysore has both.

Quote:

Episomes

In prokaryotes, plasmids which are capable of integrating into the chromosome are called episomes. The integrative plasmids may be replicated and stably maintained in a cell through multiple generations, but always at some stage they exist as an independent plasmid molecule.

You are confusing two different things.

According to research. Most Musa types have parts of BSV genes in their genes. But only small number of them have Episomal virus in cells. Episomal virus is the problem in Mysore, not parts of BSV in Mysore genes. Because there is still no proof that parts of BSV genes in Musa genes can cause actual BSV ( parts of BSV genes are only that, parts, not whole genome ). Only theories exists.

But Episomal BSV will cause BSV symptoms, it is only matter of time.

PR-Giants · 01-14-2015, 11:40 PM

If your Pisang Ceylon was really a Magical Mysore, wouldn't you expect the United States Tropical Agricultural Research Station to distribute the Pisang Ceylon to the farmers instead of the Mysore that tested positive to BSV.

Don't let common sense influence your beliefs.

Richard · 05-12-2015, 08:51 PM

Flag leaf on my Pisang Ceylon!

12-15-2014, 02:24 PM	#61 (permalink)
Richard un-Retired Richard's Photo Gallery Location: Vista, CA Find me on the map! Zone: USDA 10b Name: Richard Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 9,674 BananaBucks : 720,614 Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,636 Times Was Thanked 12,537 Times in 4,719 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1,685 Times	Re: Musa Pisang Ceylon I'd like to hear more from people about their experiences growing the plant and their perception of the taste of the fruit. __________________ Back in business at plantsthatproduce.com

12-15-2014, 03:34 PM	#66 (permalink)
Cikas33 Location: Trsteno/Dubrovnik ( Croatia ) Zone: 9b/10a Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 109 BananaBucks : 29,059 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 89 Times Was Thanked 248 Times in 80 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Musa Pisang Ceylon Another genetic test... __________________ Cultivars and species that I have: Musa basjoo Musa Dwarf Namwah Musa Fen Ba Jiao Musa Ice Cream Musa Pisang Ceylon Musa thomsonii Musa Dwarf Brazilian Musa 1000 Fingers

12-18-2014, 10:37 PM	#73 (permalink)
harveyc Been nuts, gone bananas harveyc's Photo Gallery Location: Isleton, Calif Find me on the map! Zone: 9b Name: Harvey Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 5,119 BananaBucks : 347,538 Feedback: 5 / 100% Said "Thanks" 6,025 Times Was Thanked 4,460 Times in 1,896 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1,785 Times	Re: Musa Pisang Ceylon Please be civil in the discussions on this and other topics. Also, consider if your post is really accomplishing anything more at this point or just entrenching further to continue arguing. Points seem to have been made already and no progress seems likely, so it appears to just drop it. Also, definitely no name-calling. Got it? __________________

12-19-2014, 11:52 AM	#74 (permalink)
Cikas33 Location: Trsteno/Dubrovnik ( Croatia ) Zone: 9b/10a Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 109 BananaBucks : 29,059 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 89 Times Was Thanked 248 Times in 80 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Musa Pisang Ceylon They are looking good considering that Christmas is just around the corner ( December 19. ) __________________ Cultivars and species that I have: Musa basjoo Musa Dwarf Namwah Musa Fen Ba Jiao Musa Ice Cream Musa Pisang Ceylon Musa thomsonii Musa Dwarf Brazilian Musa 1000 Fingers

01-13-2015, 08:24 PM	#77 (permalink)
Cikas33 Location: Trsteno/Dubrovnik ( Croatia ) Zone: 9b/10a Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 109 BananaBucks : 29,059 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 89 Times Was Thanked 248 Times in 80 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Musa Pisang Ceylon Any actual proof of that? We only have your word. I only belive in proofs. And there is no a single recorded case of Pisang Ceylon with BSV. In fact, all tests showed that Pisang Ceylon never express BSV. Pisang Ceylon does not have episomal BSV in cells. In other hand all Mysore plants have episomal ( dormant ) BSV in cells. That is not the same as parts of BSV genes in musa genes. Mysore has both parts of BSV in genes and episomal ( dormant ) BSV in cells. It means that all Mysore have actual virus in cells ( not just genes ). So all Mysore are sick. Because all of them are the same sick clone. Just not all of them equally strong in expressing symptoms. Just like Herpes simpleks in humans. Most humans have Herpes simpleks virus. But they express symptoms only when immune system is weakened. BSV is not lethal for Mysore. In most cases it only reduce yield for 5-30%. So it is only problem for commercial growers. Your Mysore is also sick ( like all other ). Just not expressing symptoms strong. If there are no obvious symptoms, it does not mean that plant is not sick ( contaminated ). __________________ Cultivars and species that I have: Musa basjoo Musa Dwarf Namwah Musa Fen Ba Jiao Musa Ice Cream Musa Pisang Ceylon Musa thomsonii Musa Dwarf Brazilian Musa 1000 Fingers Last edited by Cikas33 : 01-13-2015 at 08:39 PM.

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01-14-2015, 11:40 PM	#79 (permalink)
PR-Giants Commercial Grower Location: Florida & Greater Antilles Find me on the map! Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,710 BananaBucks : 267 Feedback: 16 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,954 Times Was Thanked 12,894 Times in 3,784 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,225 Times	Re: Musa Pisang Ceylon If your Pisang Ceylon was really a Magical Mysore, wouldn't you expect the United States Tropical Agricultural Research Station to distribute the Pisang Ceylon to the farmers instead of the Mysore that tested positive to BSV. Don't let common sense influence your beliefs. __________________ PR-Giants Photo Gallery 15,000+ Varieties

05-12-2015, 08:51 PM	#80 (permalink)
Richard un-Retired Richard's Photo Gallery Location: Vista, CA Find me on the map! Zone: USDA 10b Name: Richard Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 9,674 BananaBucks : 720,614 Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,636 Times Was Thanked 12,537 Times in 4,719 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1,685 Times	Re: Musa Pisang Ceylon Flag leaf on my Pisang Ceylon! __________________ Back in business at plantsthatproduce.com

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