GATrops

I also have been reading the posts on this thread and cannot believe some of the comments (almost personal attacks) that have been made in some of the messages. You may disagree with someone else’s opinions but if I remember correctly everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to voice it. Just because you firmly believe something does not necessarily mean it is correct. I find it very disappointing and am not sure if I will continue to participate in the discussions on this board given the lack of respect shown by some of those involved. I am also glad to see that Jarred spoke up to try to bring a voice of reason and respect to the discussions.

monkeypickle

Gene modified corn has another drawback for those of us who happen to enjoy the sight of migrating Monarch butterflies. Corn, modified by adding a genetic sequence that allows it to produce Bacillus Thurengiences Kills the larvae of Monarch butterfles. The gene enhanced corn produces pollen that is laced with BT. The pollen dshisces form tne tassel early in the morning while the dew is still on the leaves of the Monarchs favourite food plants. These plants commonly grow in ditches and other waste areas where corn is grown. The pollen adheres to the leaves of the milkweed plants that the larvae require to feed on. The larvae feed upon the leaves and are killed by the BT from the pollen grains. I know that this is true. I researched it and used it as a basis for my Biologymassters theme paper several years ago. Everyone got all upset by it, but guess what. Monsanto filed a lawsuit and everything got all hushed up. Result: You cannot find enough Monarch butterflies migrating through here to fill a decent matchbox, and this used to be a prominent flyway for Monarchs migrating through here in the fall. They used to cover the cedars here for several days. but no more. I haven't seen more than 1 or 2 each fall now for at least 7-8 years. Sigh I surely do miss them. they were sooo beautiful, but aparently also disposable. Monkeypickles It is not just a matter of "will it harm humans." What about "will it cause the extinction of other life forms." True. the Monarch butterfly is just another insect so who cares? But sometimes, the extinction of some seemingly unimportant member of the ecosystem leads to the extinction of another, which leads to the extinction pf another.......until one day maybe, it will make humans life impossible. Oh well. No one ever listens anyway. I am an old duffer, so it probably won't impact me . I'll be gone anyway. Good luck to the rest of you!

bigdog

Thought you might be interested in this article I found today, Mitchell:

Pesticides found in 'organic' food
November 6, 2004
Stuff
Leanne Bell
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3087903a10,00.html
Pesticide residues found in "organic" produce have, according to this story, prompted fresh concerns that New Zealand shoppers are being misled.
The Food Safety Authority was cited as saying shoppers should be aware that some food sold as "organic" might not be produced organically, after taking 41 samples of "organic" fruit, vegetables and wine from shops and found nine of them – 22 per cent – had pesticide residues.
Residues were found in lettuce, tomatoes and grapes. There was so much residue that they had probably been deliberately sprayed, the food safety watchdog said.
Executive director Andrew McKenzie was cited as saying the food was not unsafe but it did not comply with the organic standard, adding, "The sample size is quite small – it's not like a real good scientific study – but it points that there's a bit of a problem." Consumers could have confidence in food that was certified organic, "but if it's not certified, you're not quite sure what's going on. We never differentiated between certified and non-certified, we just went into shops where the consumer would logically think these things were organic."
A spokeswoman was cited as saying that the Commerce Commission, the enforcement agency for the Fair Trading Act, is assessing the information before it decides if it should investigate.
Technical director Seager Mason of organic certifier BioGro New Zealand was cited as criticizing the authority's test because it did not distinguish between certified and self-proclaimed organic foods and that BioGro did more than 250 pesticide residue tests a year on produce and had not found any residues for five years, adding, "I'm sure that test is correct but it means nothing about organics if they have selected a product which has an invalid claim of organic on it."

From:http://archives.foodsafetynetwork.ca...v_8.htm#story1

Seems that the organic industry has its own problems as well. Sounds like some companies are being a bit misleading, trying to pass their product along as "organic," when in fact it isn't.

Both industries have their own, separate problems to deal with, and to overcome. There is room for both.

bigdog

Monkeypickles (great name, btw!), I did a little research on your findings, and it seems that there was a very extensive study done on this since yours. You'll be happy to know that their results reported that BT corn poses no significant risk to monarch butterflies! I thought that was good news, because I was concerned after reading your post. Here's a little excerpt from the USDA report:

There is no significant risk to monarch butterflies from environmental exposure to Bt corn, according to research conducted by a group of scientists coordinated by the Agricultural Research Service (ARS), U.S. Department of Agriculture. This research was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).

That Bt corn might present a risk became a matter of scientific and public concern when a small experiment in 1999 indicated caterpillars suffered when given no choice but to feed on milkweed leaves heavily dusted with Bt corn pollen.

The full story can be found here: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/br/btcorn/index.html#bt1

Certainly good news!

Gabe15

Good article Frank, this is the kinda thing bananas are facing. Even organic bananas cannot escape all the pesticide spraying that must be done on a weekly basis to prevent mainly Black Sigatoka infections. This is the whole problem facing export bananas right now, they already have to spray way too many chemicals just to keep the sigatoka at bay, and then once Panama Disease Race 4 comes over to the Americas, there will be no way to stop it, the Cavendish is not resistant and pesticides do not work. Whats the answer? Either spend millions trying to genetically modify the Cavendish, or just replace them all with something like 'Goldfinger' which already exists and is a proven winner.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

mikevan

That is a problem with a lax certifying agency and unscrupulous growers looking to make more money with a label and hoping not to get caught. As with everything else in this world, it's buyer beware, unfortunately, in this world of greed, and there are members in any industry that are willing to use dishonesty to make a quick buck - not just farmers seeking to sell for more with the Organic label. I for one would like to see Organic sold for less than non-Organic - that would eliminate that kind of fraud for the most part and, after all, Organic is less costly to produce in the first place. That won't happen until supply catches up with demand and production becomes more local rather than distantly distributed. In the meantime, the safest way to have Organic with complete assurance is to grow it yourself. Nevertheless, even with a bit of salt, you'll still hopefully be more lucky buying organic than not - widespread industry-wide fraud cannot be hidden for long. And it helps if the buyer is alert and more than willing to be heard by the right people, organic or not.

Now, if they'd just stop feeding cattle corn and eliminate this e-coli problem - that interestingly seems to be plaguing non-Organic farms in California almost exclusively.

Mike

imdocrob

I agree with Gabe the simple solution is to replace the Cav. with the Goldfinger, but when we look at the big pic. isn't the Goldfinger a genetically modified banana from Honduras? The world has changed a lot from the Idustrial age due to the wonders of Science. I feel that if these labs are govt. monitored are we not going to be better off? After all isn't just a matter of time before something will come along that the Goldfinger will not be able to be resistant against. The key is to be open-minded.

Gabe15

The 'Goldfinger' as well as anything from FHIA are not GMO, they were produced through years of conventional breeding, as in pollen transfer and seed harvest, just like early bananas were produced by nature.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

mikevan

Heh - you kidding? I keep wondering if the labs should be monitoring the government!

The biggest problem is the tendency to focus on ubiquitous clones rather than even a diversity of clones. If the market were used to a more diverse nanner, preventing disaster would be easier than trying to produce that boring yeller 9" long grocery nanner. Thusly, with a very small number of parents being widely cloned, the prospects of disaster is much higher. A greater diversity in nanners - even if cloned - would reduce the catastrophic effect of disease, IMHO. And of course replacing and infusing selectively bred refreshments to the gene-pool. So, our main problem isn't the disease, but the lack of genetic diversity thru agricultural practices that unfortunately are dictated by the preconceptions of a finicky market.

Be well,
Mike

bigdog

Man, isn't that the truth! The whole ridiculous idea that consumers won't warm up to a different banana seems a bit absurd to me. I think that's the primary reason that Cavendish is still THE banana found in supermarkets. With so many great varieties out there, seems like diversity in the supermarket would be a good thing for the industry.

Gabe15

Mike you have hit the nail on the head. All over the world, many different banana varieties are grown, no other banana production system is as boring as the export bananas. This is the proposal that has been brought up countless times, if the current variety isnt working replace it with a different variety, doesnt sound so hard because its not. But there is a huge force that is stopping this from happening, and that is the industry is afraid that consumers will not like a new bananas, well thats just bullocks because they already did it in Australia, and guess what, no one cared! Infact they liked the new Goldfinger. Their only excuse to not replace the Cavendish is really just a lame excuse to give the GMO companies some business. Ive said it before though, GMO may have other great applications in improving the banana, but in my opinion its not the wisest thing to do and this point in time for the export industry (which actually when you look at the numbers is only 13% of worldwide banana production so in the end its not even the biggest issue facing bananas).

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

imdocrob

I don't think that if we replaced the Cavendish with the Goldfinger or any other banana that the majority of the people out there would even have a clue. Thanks Gabe for correcting me on the Goldfinger.

imdocrob

By the way Gabe how does one get the pic to come up under your name on these posts?

monkeypickle

So glad to hear that bt corn is not killing Monarch butterflies, but,er...where ARE all the butterflies? hmmmm

you know what? why don't some of you who have a large number of unusual varieties of edible bananas get yourselves together and have a 'banana taste-off' or something to let people know what thry are missing out on?There are probably a lot of people out there who would like some of the 'new' varieties to start asking for them? what do you all think. The tomato people are doing that and the result is that seeds of antique [but wonderfull] varieties are again being carried in seed stores.

mikevan

While the tomato enthusiasts have kept heirloom tomatoes alive and a diversity in seed stores, it's the grocery produce section that bananas reside and grocery managers that tend to stick with what they're comfortable with and used to, as well as with what has a regular supply of. There are a few pro-active grocers out there that actually do carry a small diversity of nanners from what I've read, but the overwhelming majority are only interested in boxes and boxes of the traditional yeller nanners - change is risky for them and money lost while waiting for it to catch on, taste-offs or no. Also, the tropical farmer is the one who provides the nanners and precious few of them are interested in growing a large diversity of nanners with no guarantee of sales - only breeders maintain a diversity. They focus on what makes money and that's the boring grocery-store nanner. So, even if we did do taste-offs, I doubt many of us would make any difference when our grocery nanners come from another part of the world that most of us have little contact with.

Be well,
Mike

JoeReal

Sorry, can't resist. How about these ones?

Banana-Melon from Chiquita!


Banana-Kiwi


Banana-Pineapple

mikevan

LOL! Where's the beef nanner tho? Or chicken nanners? Hey, everything tastes like chicken anyway, right?

Grin,
Mike

monkeypickle

Yuuuck! Chicken nanners sounds downright disgusting to me, but...hows about lime/coconut bananas or orange Papaya?

GAPEye

My Vote Goes To The "WMN" = WaterMelon Nanner

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Anaxagoras

This is a good thread. I learned some nuances of this problem.