momoese

Bigdog, thanks for your "dark side" input. I will always support anyone who is Biased against non-organic or non-sustainable farming methods, period, no exceptions. Sound scary? Are you scared of organic produce? Didn't think so. There is nothing scary or wrong or politically biased about supporting organic 100%

Organic growing methods have proven over the course of human history to be the right way. There is no reason to look any further. If not for laziness and corporate greed we wouldn't even be discussing this. We are talking about a very, very slippery slope here and once organic grain and produce growers and supporters have been brainwashed and converted to the "dark side" it's all over and there will be no going back and fixing things as the damage will have been done at that point. Like I said, it's not too late to stop the madness!

"Soylent Green Is People" Not sounding too far fetched these days!

You can choose to be a part of the solution(organic), or a part of the problem(GMO), the choice is yours.

Tropicallvr

Not sure about nation wide(US), but here in California you can tell if produce is GMO. If the produce has 5 numbers and the first number starts with a 9 then it is GMO. If it has 5 numbers and the first one starts with an 8 then it is Organic. I think conventional veggies and fruit only has 4 numbers, but I'm not totally sure about that one.
I often wonder what kind of crap I'm ingesting when I eat anything with corn products, since the majority of corn in the US is now GMO, or has been cross pollinated by it. Researchers are also testing new crops that have pharmaceutical drugs built into them since it could be a much cheaper way to produce the drugs. These areas are said to be ajacent to other for human consumption crops. Imagine getting some Viagra in your corn flakes first thing in the morning, then having some antidepressents in your veggie salad at lunch. No thanks.

mikevan

The greatest "consumer" of produce is the food-processing industry. And they're by no means required to indicate what's GMO and what's not, at this moment. Laws requiring this have been snuffed by the incredible power and clout of the GMO industry giants. Indeed, laws forbidding GMO plants in counties are being overturned by the Nazi strategy of war that the GMO industry is taking. They are not satisfied with people not wanting their product - their goal is to get everyone enslaved to it - control the food and you control the world. Why do you think the USA government is so far in bed with these guys? The Iraqi legistlation alone should tell you how far the US is in bed with the GMO industry - Iraqi farmers will lose their generations-developed and saved seeds by law and be forced to buy GMO patented seeds instead, just the way the GMO industry is trying to do here. They have already made criminals out of farmers who did nothing more than suffer cross-pollination from neighboring fields. Their tactics are ruthless and without mercy - and regardless of any benefits one can see in GMO - their SS-like tactics alone should raise a red-flag on their goals! Researchers and scientists are afraid to say anything lest they lose their jobs - the few that do stand up to the industry get keel-hauled pretty severely! The government (read - FDA) isn't going to do anything - they've been very deeply infiltrated by the GMO industry. Our entire agricultural system has been compromised by an enemy from within while we're distracted by external "threats" to national security.

This isn't just a complaint against GMO - but the way it's being handled and pushed - GMO is merely a tool for a final goal. Because of that, it's not tested adequately, and it is pushed on us when superior products and methods already exist that can be exploited without the dangers, cost and trouble of splicing genes. While in another world it may have its uses, because of it's abuse, any "good" that could have come from GMO has been forever tainted and our very health and lives are at stake for little more than the greed for money and power.

Organic is not about spraying manure on ones fields as people think occurred back before the 40's - it is miles different from anything we did back in the Dark Ages of agriculture. And it has come as far if not further in sophistication and progress than any GMO lab can brag. It has brought together the soil food-web and the crop as well as the very structure and composition of the cropping method into a more cohesive unit than a horse-n-plow in the 40's could ever have done. It in itself can solve the worlds hunger problems because unlike GMO, organic methods and plants can rehabilitate damaged soils and revive the soil-foodweb in a way that magnifies productivity and reduces cost that no GMO project can ever hope to accomplish. And even reviving knowledge lost back in the days of the Aztec can outproduce GMO with the revival of terra preta. So, with existing, and pre-existing and progressing development in organic methods - one has to wonder about all this furor occurring over GMO? Like I said - nothing GMO can do cannot be done already with our current and sustainable safe organic development. What, can we breed vitamin A into rice? Probably, but there's also a common sense aspect to it - why bother when sweet potatoes grow where rice grows without the need for flooding and it in itself is so much richer than rice? Let them have natural rice and natural sweet-potatoes and encourage more diversity in diet and you'll solve their nutritional problems. Showering them with some yellow rice does little more than showering them with yellow snow...

And if one must grow drugs in plants, they should first prove that they can do so in a hermetically sealed system and process the plants there at the same location and prove that they cannot mix this with food crops. However, not only will this never happen, pharm produce has already been mixed with food crops. And you have to wonder - many times more gets by than gets discovered - just how much more goodies have we been unknowingly ingesting?

Mike

momoese

Geez Mike, you are really well spoken! Thanks

STEELVIPER

I do not know to much about GMO. And i just grow Plants.Musas etc.. but i know one thing. You "F" with nature, and she will "F" you back. In one way or another.

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bigdog

How did I get to be the one with the "Dark Side" input? Somehow that labels me as a villain for pointing out that GMOs aren't the evil danger that some would have us believe? I said before, I support organic gardening, and even practice it here in my own backyard. And I support GMOs. I support food! Is there a way to breed a soybean or corn that is resistant to Roundup? I'm all for it if there is! Is there a way to breed a plant to glow when planted over TNT? I'm listening!

The GMO industry is Nazis? Funny, all this time I thought it was some scientists searching for ways to better improve ways of farming and improving plants. Roundup Ready plants have saved farmers in this country countless $$$. Do they really want to enslave us and take over the world? WHAT? Am I missing something here?

I don't mean to criticize bias - just pointing it out. When doing research papers, they teach you to look for "scholarly" papers for your research. They tell you that if you want to use a website for your research, make sure that it is an unbiased one. A website that is clearly biased will tell you anything that furthers their own cause. Period.

Do you honestly think that the inventors of Golden Rice really intended just to pee on them? Or do you think that maybe, just maybe, there was good intentions to try to help solve some of the world's hunger and malnutrition problems here? I think that's rather insensitive, Mike.

I agree with this statement. Agribacterium tumifaciens has been genetically modifying plants for thousands of years!! You can never be certain of all the risks, of course. Naturally occurring plants contain lots of allergens also. I can't eat raw peaches, apples, pears, plums, almonds, cherries, nectarines, apricots, or brazil nuts. Allergic to all of them. They all occur naturally. And guess what? Some food companies don't always include all of their ingredients on their product!

I'm not scared of eating GMO food, or organic food for that matter. I am scared to death of eating anything with almonds in it. This whole subject is kind of silly, really. GMOs are not "the problem". Ignorance and fear of change are the problem.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, guys. I respect all of you. Just thought I'd try to shed some light on what you refer to as the "dark side." .

mikevan

There is a cocaine plant that was developed to be resistant to Roundup that is doing great South of the Border nowadays. Anything is possible when there's a will - but farmers in the US typically take what's shoved at them. There are many plants that have been demonstrated to pull in toxins/chemicals - it would be trivial to capitalize on a plant that concentrates explosives in their tissues. Why go splitting genes to get there? That GMO plant will be sown over vast areas and as is usual, crossing will occur with unpredictable results.

And, RoundUp isn't even necessary for farming! It was a big money-maker for Monsanto while the patents were active tho. What better way than to market RoundUp ready seeds - they made a mint on Roundup, which has also in turn poisoned our environment and waters. Glysophate may break down, sorta kinda, tho it does bind with soil and is toxic to fish - but any idea what's in the surfactants used in RoundUp? RoundUp hasn't made a farmer any money - it's cost farmers mega-bucks in overhead they didn't need to have. Would you believe nowadays it's recommended practice to sow cover-crops in with your corn? Clovers for instance? It is the fear of weeds that has made Monsanto lotsa money - an unwarranted fear that could instead have been nullified by proper agricultural practices and a more holistic approach to farming. Bare soil is as bad as any weed...

I firmly believe well-meaning scientists and geeks are unwitting pawns in a vastly different picture from what you paint. Such has been demonstrated over and over again - it's all over the news for you and anyone else to see. Your work is worth nothing to your boss except for yet another patent to use in their overall goal. Scientists have been used like this for a long time like this in a variety if fields with full blinders on because they thought they were doing a good thing, tho, so it's not surprising.

I think Biotech has it's place. However, greedy powers that be have all but eliminated that place. Biotech can meld with traditional selective and hybridizing methods by helping map out the road to desirable traits faster, for instance. No gene melding necessary there. While it may indeed do some of that, unfortunately, the lion's share of Biotech is intrinsically involved in taking over control of the world's food. And do you blame them? Everyone has to eat, after all! And nowadays, only the tiniest minority grows their own anymore. Want to control the world - control the food. And, of course, create warm and fuzzy brochures about it - depending on the public gullibility to see them thru.

You have to ask yourself. Sometimes there's a reason for fear of new things. No one is afraid of organic. Not many are afraid of conventional - tho there is a greater knowledge of pesticide consumption in kids nowadays. But you have a mess when it comes to the GMO field the likes that Nuclear hasn't even faced! And the PR created by the strong arm of the GMO industry hasn't helped either. Why the strong-arm tactics? No one is trying to force people to eat organic - why then are they being forced to eat GMO, and worse - without their knowledge of what they're eating? If the GMO industry were so safe, why the big fight to hide its activities on one hand, and try to work on a government level to force it on other nations on the other hand? That makes me ill! Why force it on other nations? These nations are customers and customers are supposed to get what they want - why are we trying to force them to take something they don't want? We're leveraging the WTO for crying out loud! Can't you smell a rat???? If it was such a good thing, it would be side-by-side with organic in it's benignness! If there were questions, they would be patiently addressed and proven. But, it's the Nazi way the industry is acting that puts a stinker on the whole issue to me!

And - caution should be at the forefront of anything that will affect millions of people. Those who protested nuclear were also called crack-pots. Fear of change. Yet, Long Island. Chernobyl. Spent nuclear fuel with no place to go. At least 2 wrecked nuclear subs sitting on the bottom of the ocean... leaking perhaps? Are they crackpots now?

No one is protesting Organic. But entire countries are protesting GMO. And even in the GMO Capital of the World, entire counties are attempting to go GMO clean. Irregardless of the strong-arm tactics of those that would force it on us. Freedom? Nope. Control. That's what it's about. It's not down on your end - but up where the big-dogs play. I would love to see you use your interests to help guide selective breeding and hybridization into the future. There's room for Biotech in that. Build a map for breeders to follow. This is the direction BioTech should have gone in the first place:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...931467,00.html
No Dark Side of that. Tho - there's still the patent issues since life should not be patentable...

And no flame-war here. Do as you please and believe as you please. I just wanted you to see what the other side thought. Fear's not always a bad thing - keeps one alive when crossing the street. And when ingesting stuff. I hope they don't use almond genes for something you like, for instance. But with the draconian pressure put up to prevent labeling requirements, you won't know until you're in the hospital...

Happy Thanksgiving,
Mike

momoese

Flame wars aside, you obviously have a personal agenda like most people do, only yours is not the welfare of the earth and the things that live on it, including you and me. Yours is about making money and or fame or possibly immortality through science. I would like to say we should agree to disagree but I don't think in your heart you really believe your own spin.

I'm just going to say this and then I'm out for the long weekend.

GMO's are NOT proven

Organics ARE proven.

Nuff said

jeffreyp

The problem I see with plants that have been engineered to resist herbicides is that they most likely have been exposed to those chemical herbicides and have them in or on them when they make it to market. I don't see that as very healthy. Think of it like this, would you want to take a spoonful of roundup with your veggies at supper time? I think I'd support GMO and think it could be a good thing if the crops are sterile and cant lend their genes to wild or not so wild relatives. I think more benign uses of gmo would be to incorporate genes that improve the nutritional content of certain food crops. Like for example, maybe a type of corn or wheat that has twice the protein content.

I don't know if these are gmo or not, but it is interesting...

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/Ras/02-154sum.html

mrbungalow

Mike, if what you are saying about the government, this agriculture-legislation in Iraq, and the companies using nazi-methods to push GMO on other countries & continents holds water, someone should sound the alarm.

In my country, agriculture is disapperaing. Heard on the news today that there are less than 50.000 farmers left. Remember, farms in Norway are nothing like the ones they have in the US and Canada. Here they are small and more traditional. In food-production, fish-farming is dominant here.

According to the facts of international trade, all countries can benfit from trade, as long as they produce what they are good at. Still, the thing with food is that it''s too important to mess with. It's one of the primary needs. Every country should have their own varied food-production. You should atleast be able to choose.

BTW, who do you guys think is northern europes largest banana-producer? Iceland, actually!

I've lived in the United States for 6 years, and have noticed some differences in several types of food. I think the chicken in america doesn't taste anything really, and is probably 3 times as big as the ones in Norway. But the steaks in america tastes better and are superior to the ones they sell in Norway - atleast in terms of taste. America are said to only have had a very few cases of mad-cow disease, while England and France have had way too many. So you must be doing something right "over there"!

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mikevan

Well, in the States, those sounding the alarm are the "crack-pots" afraid of change. After all, if it comes from a lab, it must be safe, right? Those in EU resisting GMO are now illegal in their resistance per the WTO. And those countries banning GMO like Brazil are having those bans reversed by activist judges. There's stiff resistance out there - the alarm has already been sounded. But - it doesn't appear to be enough...

Our chickens are factory-farmed, which is why they're tasteless. Give free-range chickens and eggs a try and you'll be surprised at the difference.

As to mad-cow and family - we're just lucky. We bumble as much as any other nation and what gets found is a fraction of what gets thru as with everything else. Not to mention possible suppression of incidents, of which I would not be surprised, knowing some of the ranchers that I do. The elk and deer form is fairly rampant, IIRC. Really sad, this disease.

They're also trying to control water here - making us register our wells and whatnot. But, water falls from the sky, making it harder to control tho in some places it's illegal to collect rain-water! How weird is that. But food has to be produced - if you can centralize the food production and control it and eliminate the competing food-producers, you have the world by the gonads in a way that OPEC has never dreamed. I can walk to work - but I cannot go without food!

Which is why I try to grow as much as I can here and save seeds like mad and concentrate on heirloom crops and varieties on the brink of disappearing.

This is the direction BioTech should have gone in the first place:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...931467,00.html

Be well,
Mike

jeffreyp

I remember reading about Iceland and banana production years ago. I always thought that was an amazing thing they could pull that off. I knew someone who lived in iceland for a while and he said one of his neighbors had an orange tree in their yard. Supposeably the house was near a hot spring and the steam from it kept the surrounding area balmy enough for the tree to grow. I bet the food grown in Iceland is incredibly tastey since it's grown in volcanic soil.

Mr. Bungalow, so you lived in the usa for 6 years? That explains why you speak/write like an american! I was wondering how a norwegian like yourself sounded like one of us?

bigdog

Mitchell, everyone has their own personal agenda. Here's mine: Try to please God, so He has a smile on His face when I'm at the Gates (I sure don't want to see Him frowning! lol!), graduate from college, maybe get married and have a couple of kids, try to make a positive difference in the world (however small it may be), settle down on a few acres, grow lots of bananas and cold-hardy palms, retire with enough to not worry about my last years on Earth, and die a happy old man. A lot to ask for, I know. I don't know why you would say such bad things about me, Mitchell. Have I done something to you to upset you on a personal level? I've gone back and read my posts, and don't see anywhere that I have personally attacked you. You obviously don't know me, or you would never say that I don't care about "the welfare of the earth and the things that live on it." How can you be sure of such things from my postings on bananas.org? Believe what you want, Mitchell. I know who I am, and don't have to defend myself here. You shouldn't make judgements about people based on 2 posts on a banana forum. It's uncalled for and downright mean. Happy Thanksgiving.

momoese

Well I just wrote a whole reply to your post and it disappeared when I clicked submit. Hate that!

Anyway, if my detest of anything GMO hurts your feelings then you have my apologies.

Cheers

PS: if your going to work in the field of GMO then you will need to grow a thick skin.

bigdog

Mitchell, as you know, it's not your detesting of anything GMO that "hurts" my "feelings." You didn't mention anything about GMOs in your attack. You got personal, and you know it. Your half-hearted attemp at an apology is lame. Grow up.

momoese

Actually my apology was real. Maybe I'm not the best at expressing it over the internet.

You said a few things that lead me to believe you were not only supporting GMO as being safe, but that you wanted to pursue a career in working with them.

Now get over yourself

mrbungalow

Maybe this guy will cheer things up a bit.
http://atvs.vg.no/player/player.php?id=6188

Apparently, making the same noise as the microwave makes this young swedish guy laugh!

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modenacart

really? I have never heard of that. Where is that going on?

mikevan

Ironically, Washington State has a 1917 law that claims state ownership of rainwater and requires a permit to even put a barrel under a down-spout. Reason given - harvesting even a little bit of rainwater affects aquifers and rivers and they're attempting to defend the water supply for everyone. Strange, for such a wet state. Colorado also has some interesting permit requirements for water-collecting, IIRC. Interestingly, for such a dry state, Texas fortunately encourages rainwater collection. I'm sure there are other restrictions. Some are not state-wide, but rather are by the county. And with the greater demand for a diminishing resource, water is coming under more and more scrutiny as far as control is concerned.

Be well,
Mike

MediaHound

I just read this thread again. We may not always agree on things, and GMO is certainly a sensitive subject, but let's try to be more civil with each other. You guys know Gabe and I don't do much intervening but I don't want this thread to get out of hand (though it has been quiet for a bit).


With talks like these, when nobody gets offended, everyone wins. It stays on topic and more useful information gets passed along.
Thank you for understanding!

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Apologies in advance if I am slow to reply to your PM. I suggest posting in the forums for support if you need something urgent.