Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? - Page 2

sddarkman619 · 10-19-2013, 08:09 PM

Rather than list their "catalog" page, look here for what they are doing:
http://www.agristarts.com/_ccLib/att...ages/avail.pdf

their online catalog hasn't really been updated in quite a while.

I'll be getting a tray of the Veinte Cohol, as I'd like to check out these interesting little guys and it sound like some others would like them as well. If you'd like to get some of the veinte cohols I'll be putting them up for sale as well here, as I do with the other bananas I get from agristarts.

Thanks to those who gave me the heads up on teh Ice Cream bananas they have in this thread here:
'Ice Cream' from Agristarts?

I'd like to try a Blue Java/Ice Cream despite the bad reviews on flavor.

Nicolas Naranja · 10-19-2013, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caliboy1994

How about Hua Moa and Yangambi KM-5?

They used to do Hua Moa, All of my plants are descendents of TC plants from agristarts. I talked to them about Hua Moa and the fact that out of the 360 that I planted, about 60 of them were off-types. At the time, they told me they would no longer be doing TC of Hua Moa because it so prone to producing off-types.

Nicolas Naranja · 10-19-2013, 08:25 PM

They used to do FHIA-17, I wish they would do it again. I would also like to see a highgate/bluefields. Also, a Valery or Rubusta would be good to have. Most importantly I would like to see FHIA-23 and I believe they had one that was a pisang awak variety FHIA-26 I believe. Finally, I have just finished reading the Stover and Simmonds book and read about a pink fleshed Nam Wah. It would be fantastic.

Kat2 · 10-19-2013, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja

They used to do Hua Moa, All of my plants are descendents of TC plants from agristarts. I talked to them about Hua Moa and the fact that out of the 360 that I planted, about 60 of them were off-types. At the time, they told me they would no longer be doing TC of Hua Moa because it so prone to producing off-types.

Did I miss something? Aren't TCs actually clones? If so, how could off-types be produced?

Nicolas Naranja · 10-19-2013, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kat2

Did I miss something? Aren't TCs actually clones? If so, how could off-types be produced?

Somaclonal variation

ez · 10-19-2013, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kat2

Did I miss something? Aren't TCs actually clones? If so, how could off-types be produced?

Somaclonal variation

Shoot-tip culture preserves genetic stability much better than callus or cell suspension cultures, yet somaclonal variation appears to be widespread among plants regenerated from banana shoot-tip cultures. Off-type frequencies vary from 1% [16] to 74% [17]. The phenomenon of somaclonal variation in the plantain subgroup (Musa spp. AAB group) was extensively studied [17]. It revealed that the incidence of somaclonal variation is strongly influenced by the genetic stability of each cultivar, and that its frequency is amplified by culture-induced factors. There is no evidence that growth regulators routinely used in tissue culture directly affect the rate of variation, but it has been found that the rate of somaclonal variation is positively related to the generation number. For 'Williams' (AAA) in vitro plants obtained after one and five subculture cycles, dwarfism and leaf-off types counted for 3.7% and 0.7% respectively after one in vitro cycle and increased to 6.1% and 1.9% respectively after five in vitro cycles [18]. It is therefore recommended that the number of subculture cycles should be limited to ten [19] or that the number of plants produced from a primary explant should be limited to no more than 1000 [20].

CELL AND TISSUE CULTURE, AND MUTATION INDUCTION

servatusprime · 10-19-2013, 11:03 PM

That's pretty cool. I think some of the taller varieties would be great dwarfed. If there aren't any negative side effects, I would like to do some tc'ing just for the dwarfing. Has there been much discussion about such a practice? I think it would help with people wanting easier to maintain plants either in the ground or in the pot.

Nicolas Naranja · 10-20-2013, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by servatusprime

That's pretty cool. I think some of the taller varieties would be great dwarfed. If there aren't any negative side effects, I would like to do some tc'ing just for the dwarfing. Has there been much discussion about such a practice? I think it would help with people wanting easier to maintain plants either in the ground or in the pot.

It can be used for this, but it can take a lot of generations. Unfortunately a lot of the novel mutations like red coloring, dwarfism, and a horn type bunch in plantains are not stable and can revert back to their former forms. The whole reason that I have a french plantain in my collection is because a false-horn plantain reverted back. The research says that the mutations are basically a one way street with no records of green plant going red or a french plantain turning into a false horn. But apparently the superdwarf cavendish is a result of tissue culture.

caliboy1994 · 10-20-2013, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ez

caliboy1994 "Varieties in the Mysore subgroup have BSV DNA encoded into their genome"

Mysore should be removed from the list.

Pisang Ceylon (which they already TC) is BSV free and Pisang Klotek is mostly BSV free. Mitchell had one isolated incident with PK. Mysore has MAJOR BSV issues.

crazy banana · 10-20-2013, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenFin

Their tc'ing of Gros Michel has made it widely available to the mainland US members here. When they tc SH-3640, it'll be the same way.

A lot of the pups that get traded are descendents of tc's. Without tc's, fewer people would establish mats and fewer people would have access to pups.

I also appreciate the substantially lower cost of tc's and not having to bug members by pm'ing them and asking for pups.

If you don't want tc's yourself for whatever reason, that's fine. But it makes no sense at all to come into this thread and act like it's a bad thing for A-S to tc new varieties and make them available to those of us who want them. Some of us are willing to take that risk and to put a lot of time, effort, pride, and knowledge into growing and verifying the identity of the plant...and then share pups with people who weren't willing to take that risk. So even if you only want pups, it's still clearly in your best interest for A-S to make desired varieties available so that other members can get their hands on them and propagate them.

On the subject of risk, the risk of introducing unwanted diseases/pests into your garden is vastly lower with tc's than with pups. Getting pups from a lot of different places and putting them in your garden is like going out and having unprotected sex with a bunch of random people. Some of us prefer to minimize that risk by using tc's.

Furthermore, it is certainly not the case that pups are sure things and tc's are always mixed up. Of the 4 pups I've gotten from members of this forum, 2 died right away (rotted without ever growing) and 1 was mislabeled. Worse, on one attempted purchase the member didn't bother to put the plant in the mail for a month after I had paid, then addressed it to himself so it was lost in the mail for another month, then decided to not sell it after all. It was 3 months before I got my money back, and ranks as one of the worst purchase experiences of my life. Of the ~20 tc's I've gotten, 1 has been mislabeled (the infamous Fake Ice Cream), 3 have died (2 as a result of me digging them up and moving them around), and all were promptly delivered without drama or disease. Not perfect, but better luck than I had with the pups.

People have varied results either way, pup or tc, but I'd be approximately as confident that a business like Wellspring (supplied by A-S) would correctly ship me a particular plant as I am that an average member would get it right.

One tactic I recommend for getting retail orders correct is to introduce yourself when you order as a member of bananas.org and tell them that you'll be posting a review here with pics when the order arrives. It's not an overt threat, but it let's them know that they're performing for an audience and that a bit of their reputation is riding on the accuracy and quality of the order. That's what I did, and the retailers performed flawlessly (I don't hold the Fake Ice Cream against the retailer).

I see Agri-Starts as a valuable resource that has done and continues to do a ton of good for banana enthusiasts in the mainland US. They're not perfect, but they do a lot more good than bad and most of us have benefited from their work. This is an opportunity to get even more value out of them by helping to correct and expand their offerings.

You have asked a question and you got my honest answer. Did not mean to offend anybody.
I realize that we members in California or Florida are definitely spoiled in having choices to buy quality pups even without having them shipped, compared to Musa growers in other parts of the US who depend on TCs or expensive shipping of pups. However, I think, you have just proofed my point: for me it is all about quality over quantity. Why is it that it has been brought to AS attention many times that their Ice Cream is not the "real" BJ, but no attempt has been made to correct it? What about the Misi Luki Namwah, FHIA 1/Goldfinger TCs from them with some sporting issues ( growing well but not fruiting), what about Musa Hua Moa TCs from them?
Please do not mis-understand my point of view. Sorry to hear that you had some bad experiences with some bananas.org members. Of course there is some luck involved, but also common sense. Being on here a lot and still considering myself a newbie, I would think that I have developed a pretty good sense who has the knowledge and pride for his/her collection and who is only
blowing smoke. I personally always strive to go above and beyond for my clients and customers and expect the same from merchants I buy from. If someone has to mention a board or website in order to get better quality or service, it does not make me more confident to buy from them.
You have mentioned plant diseases and pests. Well, whoever buys the minimum of two trays or 144 plants has to transplant them into larger pots, right? 144 plants will then travel to Big Box stores and further destinations. Plenty of even higher risk of potential diseases and pests then just a backyard grower. We all have to do our homework if we do get new plants: disinfect AND quarantine and common sense.
By no means do I want to bad mouth Agri-Starts and a company like this is most likely a blessing for some commercial Musa growers. For me it has always been and will always be our great bananas.org members.

Kat2 · 10-20-2013, 08:07 AM

I also didn't mean to offend by asking about "morphing" in TCs; I was sincerely curious. I'm a real noob with bananas; I have 1 DC (I think) purchased at Lowes. I'm certain she's a TC but she was 1' tall when purchased locally; 6 months later her leaves tower over a privacy fence. I'm very satisfied thus far. As for what varieties they should add to the their inventory, I haven't a clue. I already did the massive collection thing with figs (many unidentified); heaven help me I won't get that nuts again.

Next Level · 10-20-2013, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenFin

Their tc'ing of Gros Michel has made it widely available to the mainland US members here. When they tc SH-3640, it'll be the same way.

A lot of the pups that get traded are descendents of tc's. Without tc's, fewer people would establish mats and fewer people would have access to pups.

I also appreciate the substantially lower cost of tc's and not having to bug members by pm'ing them and asking for pups.

If you don't want tc's yourself for whatever reason, that's fine. But it makes no sense at all to come into this thread and act like it's a bad thing for A-S to tc new varieties and make them available to those of us who want them. Some of us are willing to take that risk and to put a lot of time, effort, pride, and knowledge into growing and verifying the identity of the plant...and then share pups with people who weren't willing to take that risk. So even if you only want pups, it's still clearly in your best interest for A-S to make desired varieties available so that other members can get their hands on them and propagate them.

On the subject of risk, the risk of introducing unwanted diseases/pests into your garden is vastly lower with tc's than with pups. Getting pups from a lot of different places and putting them in your garden is like going out and having unprotected sex with a bunch of random people. Some of us prefer to minimize that risk by using tc's.

Furthermore, it is certainly not the case that pups are sure things and tc's are always mixed up. Of the 4 pups I've gotten from members of this forum, 2 died right away (rotted without ever growing) and 1 was mislabeled. Worse, on one attempted purchase the member didn't bother to put the plant in the mail for a month after I had paid, then addressed it to himself so it was lost in the mail for another month, then decided to not sell it after all. It was 3 months before I got my money back, and ranks as one of the worst purchase experiences of my life. Of the ~20 tc's I've gotten, 1 has been mislabeled (the infamous Fake Ice Cream), 3 have died (2 as a result of me digging them up and moving them around), and all were promptly delivered without drama or disease. Not perfect, but better luck than I had with the pups.

People have varied results either way, pup or tc, but I'd be approximately as confident that a business like Wellspring (supplied by A-S) would correctly ship me a particular plant as I am that an average member would get it right.

One tactic I recommend for getting retail orders correct is to introduce yourself when you order as a member of bananas.org and tell them that you'll be posting a review here with pics when the order arrives. It's not an overt threat, but it let's them know that they're performing for an audience and that a bit of their reputation is riding on the accuracy and quality of the order. That's what I did, and the retailers performed flawlessly (I don't hold the Fake Ice Cream against the retailer).

I see Agri-Starts as a valuable resource that has done and continues to do a ton of good for banana enthusiasts in the mainland US. They're not perfect, but they do a lot more good than bad and most of us have benefited from their work. This is an opportunity to get even more value out of them by helping to correct and expand their offerings.

I am not against TCs. I own plenty of them. I am not even against them adding more varieties. But what I have a problem with is selling things as a certain cultivar and it not be what they label it as. What they should do before adding more is get what they have right. That's not hard to do.

Also a lot of there TCs show Somaclonal variation. We have learned, over the years, to reduce the frequency of "off-types" to a manageable level. A-S has not figured this out. Long duration in tissue culture and from high number of cycles in the multiplication phase of the meristem culture is a sure way to create variation. At the same time all there somaconal variation is not bad. And could create the next great cultivar. Some variations I have observed with my limited experience.

Double Mahoi = dwarfism
Dwarf Cavendish = dwarfism
Goldfinger = off-type
Gran Nain = dwarfism
Manzano = off-type
MonaLisa = off-type
Veinte Cohol = off-type
Williams = dwarfism

TC are only less risky if you order from AS directly. Once they leave it is probably safer to get them from a member. I live in an area with no banana diseases. I have to be cautious before introducing pathogens into my greenhouses either way.

blownz281 · 10-20-2013, 08:43 AM

What part of NC do you live in?

Next Level · 10-20-2013, 09:04 AM

Outside Charlotte. Was in Top Sail last weekend fishing. Used to live in Wilmington during college. I love that area.

blownz281 · 10-20-2013, 09:09 AM

Cool man,yeah topsail is also a nice area. OBX is great for surfing and fishing love it there to and would move there if jobs,weather,storms weren't a issue haha.

jbyrd88888 · 10-20-2013, 09:24 AM

Wootwoot Topsail Island my beach. . . Only went once this year

I love the tidal pools

GreenFin · 10-20-2013, 03:01 PM

I should have phrased the original question as "What varieties would you most like to see more widely available/easily attainable?" and left reference to tc'ing and Agri-Starts out of the discussion.

If you're a pup-only person, no problem, just go with this pup-centric version: "What varieties of pups would you like to see more widely available/easily attainable?"

Next Level · 10-20-2013, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenFin

I should have phrased the original question as "What varieties would you most like to see more widely available/easily attainable?" and left reference to tc'ing and Agri-Starts out of the discussion.

If you're a pup-only person, no problem, just go with this pup-centric version: "What varieties of pups would you like to see more widely available/easily attainable?"

Yeah it doesn't work like that. We know its A-S. We want them to fix there current lineup before going after new cultivars. We are not asking for much. They are making a good deal of money off these plants. I deserve to get what I pay for.

I TC my own plants. So I am not against them.

sunfish · 10-20-2013, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next Level

Yeah it doesn't work like that. We know its A-S. We want them to fix there current lineup before going after new cultivars. We are not asking for much. They are making a good deal of money off these plants. I deserve to get what I pay for.

I TC my own plants. So I am not against them.

Why don't you TC Ice Cream and start selling them ?

sddarkman619 · 10-20-2013, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next Level

Yeah it doesn't work like that. We know its A-S. We want them to fix there current lineup before going after new cultivars. We are not asking for much. They are making a good deal of money off these plants. I deserve to get what I pay for.

I TC my own plants. So I am not against them.

I've tried TCing my own but have run into some contamination issues. I've grown mushrooms many times and had no contam issues but with the bananas I do. care to PM and help me out? got any photos?

10-19-2013, 08:09 PM	#21 (permalink)
sddarkman619 Banana Man Find me on the map! Name: Larry Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,164 BananaBucks : 248,579 Feedback: 14 / 100% Said "Thanks" 341 Times Was Thanked 1,239 Times in 544 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? Rather than list their "catalog" page, look here for what they are doing: http://www.agristarts.com/_ccLib/att...ages/avail.pdf their online catalog hasn't really been updated in quite a while. I'll be getting a tray of the Veinte Cohol, as I'd like to check out these interesting little guys and it sound like some others would like them as well. If you'd like to get some of the veinte cohols I'll be putting them up for sale as well here, as I do with the other bananas I get from agristarts. Thanks to those who gave me the heads up on teh Ice Cream bananas they have in this thread here: 'Ice Cream' from Agristarts? I'd like to try a Blue Java/Ice Cream despite the bad reviews on flavor. __________________ Ca Licensed Nursery - Snail/Disease Free and Inspected: Bountiful Garden Nursery - A1469.001 Banana Plants for Sale https://www.bananatreesforsale.com Sign up to the Newsletter for Updates: Sign Up Here

10-19-2013, 08:25 PM	#23 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 604,232 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,666 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? They used to do FHIA-17, I wish they would do it again. I would also like to see a highgate/bluefields. Also, a Valery or Rubusta would be good to have. Most importantly I would like to see FHIA-23 and I believe they had one that was a pisang awak variety FHIA-26 I believe. Finally, I have just finished reading the Stover and Simmonds book and read about a pink fleshed Nam Wah. It would be fantastic. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

10-19-2013, 11:03 PM	#27 (permalink)
servatusprime Find me on the map! Zone: 10A Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 476 BananaBucks : 119,923 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 446 Times Was Thanked 913 Times in 262 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 24 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? That's pretty cool. I think some of the taller varieties would be great dwarfed. If there aren't any negative side effects, I would like to do some tc'ing just for the dwarfing. Has there been much discussion about such a practice? I think it would help with people wanting easier to maintain plants either in the ground or in the pot.

10-20-2013, 08:07 AM	#31 (permalink)
Kat2 Location: Now nesting in Titusville, FL Zone: 10A or 9B ish. Like it matters? Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,153 BananaBucks : 309,065 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,921 Times Was Thanked 2,669 Times in 1,322 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 595 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? I also didn't mean to offend by asking about "morphing" in TCs; I was sincerely curious. I'm a real noob with bananas; I have 1 DC (I think) purchased at Lowes. I'm certain she's a TC but she was 1' tall when purchased locally; 6 months later her leaves tower over a privacy fence. I'm very satisfied thus far. As for what varieties they should add to the their inventory, I haven't a clue. I already did the massive collection thing with figs (many unidentified); heaven help me I won't get that nuts again. __________________

10-20-2013, 08:43 AM	#33 (permalink)
blownz281 Location: Coastal NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b coastal Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,373 BananaBucks : 509,401 Feedback: 6 / 100% Said "Thanks" 440 Times Was Thanked 756 Times in 534 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 14 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? What part of NC do you live in?

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10-20-2013, 09:04 AM	#34 (permalink)
Next Level Location: NC Zone: 8 Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 10 BananaBucks : 1,078 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2 Times Was Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 4 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? Outside Charlotte. Was in Top Sail last weekend fishing. Used to live in Wilmington during college. I love that area.

10-20-2013, 09:09 AM	#35 (permalink)
blownz281 Location: Coastal NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b coastal Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,373 BananaBucks : 509,401 Feedback: 6 / 100% Said "Thanks" 440 Times Was Thanked 756 Times in 534 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 14 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? Cool man,yeah topsail is also a nice area. OBX is great for surfing and fishing love it there to and would move there if jobs,weather,storms weren't a issue haha.

10-20-2013, 09:24 AM	#36 (permalink)
jbyrd88888 ░▒▓█ Јustin █▓▒░ Location: H.P., N.C. Find me on the map! Zone: 7-J Name: Justin Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 668 BananaBucks : 53,013 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,104 Times Was Thanked 971 Times in 371 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 236 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? Wootwoot Topsail Island my beach. . . Only went once this year I love the tidal pools __________________ ■□■ J-Bert's Nana Grow Log ○●○ ●○● UPDATED 6-21-2015 ■□■

10-20-2013, 03:01 PM	#37 (permalink)
GreenFin Location: Kansas Zone: 6a Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 595 BananaBucks : 105,949 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,396 Times Was Thanked 939 Times in 334 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 44 Times	Re: Which varieties would you most like to see Agri-Starts start tc'ing? I should have phrased the original question as "What varieties would you most like to see more widely available/easily attainable?" and left reference to tc'ing and Agri-Starts out of the discussion. If you're a pup-only person, no problem, just go with this pup-centric version: "What varieties of pups would you like to see more widely available/easily attainable?" __________________ Set out runnin', but I'll take my time; a friend of bananas is a friend of mine. www.GreenFinGardens.com

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