PR-Giants

I've noticed that some of the procedures for breaking apical dominance to promote new shoot growth can also increase plant and bunch size while reducing the plant to harvest period in ratoon crops. The unintended consequence of delaying bud emergence probably could be useful for the folks that have short growing seasons.

I would like to learn about other techniques of delaying bud emergence in hope that they might also have some beneficial side effects.

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Pancrazio

I can't add anything meaningful to you probably. However the topic has great importance for those in colder climates and i will simply add my two cents.
In my opinion people in colder climate don't do enough effort to control the time of bud emergence: this is the key factor to obtain some reasonably ripe fruit for those who con't keep the plant ouside all year long.
So far i haven't had any flower yet (i'm growing bananas since 4 years) but i'm experimenting with the following method: I put the plant under stress by the end of august to slow any bud in formation till the next year. My reasoning is as follows: even a perfectly kept plant in colder climate has a big stress in winter, and this is the reason why we se most buds from people in colder climate at the end of the summer. Any bud initiated before the stress become abandoned during the winter (unless it is big enough), then the plant procedes with the formation of a new bud in spring, puts out the required 10-11 leaves and BAM, the summer is almost over.
I put a big stress on the plant when it has put out 6-7 leaves, this way the bud is too much developed to be aborted; the the plants stays frowzen for 1 or 1 and half month while recovering from the stress and later is too cold to grow significantly. IN spring it should put out 3-6 leaves and start with flowering, hopefully. It should recude by a fair amount quantity and quality of the fruit, but worse fruit are better than no fruit.

Everything is highly speculative, and probably I'm doing some obvious mistake, but this is the beast i have been able to invent to control the bud emergence in my climate.
I hope to have been at least intellegible.

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PR-Giants

I think you're right, but maybe it's because they don't realize how easy it is to manipulate.

I was hoping there would be many different ideas shared in this thread.

Having a plant bloom in the Spring simply allows the bunch more time to properly fill.


What type of big stress?

I prefer a series of mild stresses that have a positive affect on the plant and by using an incremental approach you can more precisely hit your target date.

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Pancrazio

To be honest, i have some problem to understand how to manipulate it even myself. So far, aside from my method, i haven't found any other method. I think that having a plant which simply gets its leaves destroyed by the frost every winter (but is capable to keeping the pstem alive, thus allowing it to be grown in ground), can be "forced" to flower at a certain age by trimming the pstem ad a certain height the year before the expected flowering... but still you need to keep the plant in the ground year round wich is something I can't do (I will start experimenting on that next year, i guess).

So far the best time to get flower in colder climate seems to be the beginning of summer rather than spring. July seems about right at my place. Before that, temperature are still pretty low, and the plant is still recovering damaged leaves from the previous winter. During July everything has healed and ever the more tropical plants take off.
I could get flower earlier but plant would have just 2-3 small leaves, so the bunch probably wouldn't be very good nor in quality or quantity.

My method is simple enough, since I have to transplant them in pot for the winter (and I have to do it anyway, even if i weren't searching to delay the bud emergence) I tend to transplant them earlier than the ideal time.
Let's say the best time for transplanting them would be October (reasonable: temperature are still decent, humidity is high and sun isn't strong so the plant would experience less stress): they would stop growing right after the transplant to regrow their root, and probably would start to grow leaves again in spring.
Well, even if October i the ideal, I transplant them in AUGUST. So I avoid any bud emergence because plant stress in September and in the beginning of October (horrible months for flowering) and i hope to delay the flowering till spring/summer.
They need extra effort to be transplanted in august, the need shadow and extra care, but so far both my namwah and orinoco haven't had any major problem with this. Even cavendish and VC have been able to keep most of their leaves after that.

What kind of stress do you use?

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PR-Giants

My techniques are more like a caress than a stress, especially compared to what you're doing. All of my methods are based on the same basic principle and I prefer to wait for other member's input before explaining it. The common responses after hearing it has either been "I could have thought of that" or "That has to work", it's really just basic common sense nothing special.

I chop the pseudostems on all my Dwarf Brazilians, they are low quality bananas but the plant makes some great mulch. Occasionally they manage to squeeze out a bunch or 2 and the BSF maggots seem to enjoy eating Dwarf Brazilians. Here are a couple of photos from today of DB's, both plants have very thick pseudostems and are only 3' to 4' tall.

The flag is the slightly taller plant and should have the larger bunch.

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Pancrazio

Ok I will wait to hear what you do then. I'm curious now.
I hope to be able to use your method; i don't hold my breath though. I have noticed a couple of things: once you are forced to move your bananas inside for the winter, your techniques must differ substantially from those used by people who can grow bananas in ground all year long. Firstly, during the summer you can't do pretty much anything else than giving to your plant the best environment: plants grow so slowly otherwise that would be foolish not giving them the best of the best; otherwise you'll see the flower after 10 years...
Secondly pretty much anything that can be chosen without impairing the growth, must go towards the effort to keep the pstem short and the plant manageable. Not just ergonomically, but also environmentally: this is the reason, for istance, why I can't use your grass clippings method: while it could work in summer, during winter moving a banana growing in a rotting medium indoor is something completely infeasible. Still i love hearing new ideas and being shown the right path.

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PR-Giants

Either you misunderstood or I explained it poorly. This is a photo of a shallow rectangular pot, two of the corners were partitioned and filled with organic material. Eventually each partition will be removed giving the roots new territory and nutrients. Incrementally enlarging pot size stimulates growth and shortens the plant to shooting period.

There is a used coco frio receptacle in the top left corner, it was thoroughly crushed and will make a nice home for some millipedes.



If this plant needed to be moved indoors for the winter, the corners would be cut off leaving behind the organic material and any excess soil/weight not desired.

There is an easy way of doing this with pots, a pvc pipe, and a couple of elbows. Multiple pots can be connected to increase area by using what is basically an upside down drain trap with a large hole cut into the top, so the conduit can be filled with soil and water while also providing an air source. The roots will sense the moisture and venture into the conduit and travel to the other pot.



These photos show a 25 gal grass/water tank that was connected to a 25 gal pot via a conduit. The banana in the pot was never watered or fertilized, all nutrients were brought back from the grass/water tank via the roots.

FYI Pancrazio, this was done outside.







IMO, you'll probably have the best results by preparing a short cycle plant the first summer and fruiting it the next. After getting a small plant established, break the apical dominance and divert a good percentage of the mother-plant's energy into the sucker. Plan it so that you get both mother and sucker to an equal and maximum acceptable winter indoor height and then in the Spring after both are established again divert almost all of the mother-plant's energy into the sucker. You'll be essentially using two plants to produce one extra large bunch at an accelerated rate and you'll still have the option to fruit the mother-plant afterwards. Some hobbyist incorrectly believe that nutrients can travel in both directions between mother and sucker.

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jbyrd88888

?? Like this? But the roots in the conduit will be lost?


I can understand how upsizing container can delay things but how about removing the most outer leaf as soon as the new one unfolds (only keeping 4-8 leafs on the plant at anytime... Would this delay or promote emergence?

Or how about "choking" the mother (p-stem collar) to promote pups?

I would like to see more people contribute here because many types of stresses can be applied to a plant but whether this will encourage or delay a bud is questionable.

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PR-Giants

Flip it and place it on the top of the pots.
Any potting mix will work.

Nice pic, thanks

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cincinnana

Hmmmmm.....

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PR-Giants

Statistically speaking it is very easy to notice that properly enlarging the pot size can hasten bud formation, but understanding it is a bit more difficult.

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jbyrd88888

Okay please enlighten me... The most I Really understand about upsizing container size is:
*not ideal to become root-bound
*disturbing the growing medium disrupts root-bonds, slows growth and can shock the plant.

I like to know more about the best time to pot some "right-sized" bananas up for winter in my greenhouse. My experience this year will teach me much hopefully....

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Pancrazio

PR-Giants
I think i'm starting to get it... seems really interesting, and it could save a lot of space during winter (and give an use to all those grass clippings that right now in my garden are just wasted). The most interesting part is the upsizing-downisizng the pot as winter comes, without doing a proper transplant, this could reduce the stress on the plant (and even more, you can adjust the speed of growth adding and subtracting pots.... and if the pot with the banana has some inert medium (pumice?) you can also control the amount of feeding the plant gets).
To me i see just two main problems: the wind (a fallen pot can severely damage the plant, with this multi-pot setup) but I bet this can be overcome. What is a bigger issue for me, is that i need a really short banana because even dwarf can get taller than my cold frame when potted up... and keeping a banana potted for its entire cycle... i don't know it i will be bale to do it. I have started trying with a Goldfinger but just because a friend of mine told me that his plant fruited a 175cm (pstem) (5'9''). But godinger isn't doing well as for now ans i don't know why (even if it is a relatively small plant in a 60l (15 gal) pot.

Regarding your idea of diverting the energy of the mother on the sucker, I like it. I was thinking about something similiar this year, since my dwarf namwah, once replanted in the garden after having spent a winter bare-root in the cellar, has produced a pup bigger than the mother plant. So i wondered if this could be used in any way.
I'd love to try it next year, even if i must admit that i have some doubt that even a short cycle can be able to fruit in just 2 season here. This has been my second year with a Veinte Cohol. No fruit as yet (but admittedly, last summer as been awful here, colder that everything in last 20-30 years).
I will have more experience in next years.

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