mahning

so is suggested after registering.. well, yes of course!
Hello.
I come to this board because I have to reforest over 1,000 hectares of recentrly cleared land in central america. I have been planting bananas & plantains to shade some of the seedling. then I realize it's nice to have extra food. now i wonder if some much needed cash come come of it too. i'm self finance independent and no rockefeller. this is a frontier situation - not much law or order. the land is 1 hour by horse from the road then 3 hours truck to the nearest port. any advice very welcome. i'll post anything worthy that i learn.

MediaHound

Welcome to the forum, glad you found us.
Sounds like you have done a lot of back breaking work!
I look forward to reading your stories and hearing of your success with the banana plants. Pictures, of course, most appreciated. I hope that your banana plants are safe in the "wild west" and the frontier locals don't give much trouble raiding the plants, etc. Probably good advice is to not show or tell many about your plantation.

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Apologies in advance if I am slow to reply to your PM. I suggest posting in the forums for support if you need something urgent.

Tog Tan

Hi mahning! Welcome to the board! It is indeed quite an undertaking you are looking at. I wish you the very best and hope it comes true for you. Yes, please do keep us posted cos we are as excited about it as you are. We are all here with the moral support for your project. All the best!

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Tog Tan has sadly suddenly passed away 6/16/09. We will miss you Tog Tan.

lorax

Buenas! Whereabouts in Central America? You're in for an insane amount of work - are you reforesting with native trees, or are you thinking of monoculturing? (I'd advise the first path, and plant bananas / plantains in with that...)

I've done quite a bit of reforestation here in Ecuador - let me know if you need any tips / advice / whatever. I'm heavy into native-tree reforestation where it's possible.

mahning

Wow - thanks mediahound, tog tan and lorax! that's a very friendly welcome.
- mediahound, neighbors raiding the plants would be the sweetest thing - the concern here is cattle ranching and the coordinated anarchy it promotes.
- tog tan, i wish i had looked at that undertaking - i would have walked away, but i was not looking and i now fell into it. no regrets. thank you for the support!
lorax, i could not be candid with mediahound if i said where i am working. sad indeed, but you should understand. (even "do good" organizations have no sympathy if you experience anything that differs from their script). so I keep a low profile. please forgive me. it doesn't matter anyway, most places with tropical forest have similar issues.
honestly, i saw the article here:
PROMUSA - A Gros Michel success story
i could develop a population of plants with some "gourmet"/"specialty" export potential? I need the bananas anyway to protect the tree seedlings (mix of local species). labor is very cheap. i am in no hurry. I'd like advice on promising species that will do well in wet tropics about 100 meter above sea level.

mskitty38583

welcome to the org.

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lorax

No worries. You'll notice that my profile just says "Ecuador" - it's a big little country, and I'm not saying where in it I am at any given time; this is largely because I work with endangered hardwoods which are vulnerable to poaching. If you're in Central America, the dominant tree types are pretty much the same as mine here at the equator.

You sure could do gourmet/specialty food crops, but check with your country's Ministerio del Ambiente and Ministerio de Agricultura about export licencing first to see if it's feasable and for which crops. If it were me, I'd also put in some of the cash-crop hardwoods (teak, ahuano, cedron, palo santo, canelo negro, and balsa).

I'd also plant the medicinal trees - Sangre de Drago, Canela/Cassia, Senna, Sanguarachi, etc. etc.

At your elevation, the food crops that will grow well and be good for export include Pitahaya, all varieties of banana but especially "exotics" for the Western market, (that's Reds, Baby bananas, Gros Michel; basically anything except Cavendish or Gran Nain) Tamarillo (which may be called Tomate de Arbol locally), Passionfruits (especially Maracuya, Granadilla, and the banana-types like Taxo), Papaya, White pineapple, Citrus of all types, and possibly Soursop/Guayabana. You should also be able to grow Jackfruit, Breadfruit, Achiote, Rambutan, and Mombin; the latter is a local cash crop and doesn't usually get exported. The one thing you shouldn't grow is coffee - at such a low altitude the flavour will be inferiour to highland types.

If you're interested in permaculture methods for these things, let me know. It's one of my specialties.

chong

Beth,
Since you're into hardwoods, I was surprised that you did not mention the two trees listed on CITES: Honduran Mahogany (Caoba); and Brazilian Cherry Wood (Guapinol). How scarce are these two woods? Until recently, I did not know that these two are listed in CITES. As such, I would have thought that the propagation and cultivation of these two trees would highly encouraged.

I am curious because 8 or 9 years ago, I bought a nice large (service for 12 with the insert leaves) dining table and arm chairs made of solid thick planks of Honduran Mahogany, but they came from Indonesia. It was a road show at Costco, and there was limited supply. But although the price was at least 1/6th what they would cost at a regular furniture store, I could only afford the table and 2 arm chairs. Since then, I've been looking everywhere for 10 equivalent side chairs to complete my set but have been unsuccessful. At the time that I bought it, the side chairs cost $290 each. So I wanted to save up for them. The company does not have a contract with Costco anymore, and the new contractors have been selling only veneer furniture and they do not even have any that are made of Honduran Mahogany.

The Brazilian Cherry Wood is a similar story.
several years ago, I bought over a thousand square feet of 5"x 3/4" random length Tongue and Groove with matched end flooring, and I still have them sitting in my carport because I don't have enough to cover the area that I wanted to put them in. I have since decided to just use red oak instead because I have been unable to find that wood flooring in the same size.

If these trees are endangered now, how is it that there are some companies that are selling these trees for speculation?

Thanks.
Chong

lorax

Chong, it's because they don't grow well for me. Caoba is really really really rare; I'm talking upwards of $100 US a board foot. Guapinol is less scarce, maybe $30 a board foot.

The companies that are speculating in these trees are doing one of two things:
1) They have their own plantations, and
2) They're poaching.

LilRaverBoi

Welcome to the site! I wish you the best of luck with your project! I'm sure you'll need to devote a lot of time and effort to the endeavor, but I'm sure the results will be well worth it! Hope to see you in the forums...the people here are quite knowledgeable, very helpful and very kind, so if you have questions, don't be shy....ask away! Enjoy the site!

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RIP Tog Tan. We love you and will always remember you!
I'm Bryan with a Y! There is no 'I' in BRYAN!

mahning

Lorax writes "Caoba ..upwards of $100 US a board foot. Guapinol .. $30". In my parts, even with permits (trees fallen by a recent hurricane), the offer, in situ, is $24 and $13 respectively per cubic meters (about 195 board feet per M3). Even with such low prices, very few companies are coming in. I am planting these 2 species amongst others but the prospect of a future harvest is questionable without improved security and stability. Chong, you turned to red oak because it comes from places where this is not an issue.

lorax

Yes, but that's the bulk in-tree price. I'm quoting finished lumber. The difference between the two is often astounding. Here, Ahuano (tropical mahogany) is $15 per cubic meter in situ, and nearly $60 a board-foot for finished lumber. The poachers or timberers make a bare subsistence wage, and the mills take the lion's share.

mahning

Yes, that's the bulk in-tree price. If I invests in a couple of machines and hire a truck to bring it to the mill, they will let me wait and grow desperate (all my cash is out and the truck is waiting for his pay). They will finally offer pennies. i will accept the pennies and probably go bankrupt. If they want something specific, they will lend pennies to an operator that they hold on a short leash. The effect: those who could be caring for the forest cannot afford a bullet. sorry, but "indigenous communal forestry" will remain a trendy gimmick until this glitch is fixed. Same with carbon sequestration schemes, so far, the best offers I've seen trickle no more than 25% down to the owner/custodian.

lorax

Exactly. Which is why I do conservation only. I've found that signs reading "Puma Preserve" are very effective poacher-deterrents.

mahning

we had pumas and tapir, they've been all killed in the last 4 years. conservation.. yes of course. That the idea ultimately. The affected part would recover too. but this is cowboys and indians AK and 22. Forest? clear it, burn it and sell it - this is the money. I'm holding this line uniquely because I am a total fool. I am looking today at a budget: About 4 kilometers of bounderies have to be cleaned. 15 men 15 days, 2 cooks, food, 1 chainsaw, machetes, files etc. it all come to about $4,000. Where is that supposed to come from? and that's just a small section. then there is the full time personel who want double pay because of the constant threats and intimidations. This is difficult terrain: poor visibility and radio transmission, hard to move around (especially during the rains). It is also a harsh scene: mostly poor guys hoping for a quick fix, common criminals running from justice, bullies and preaching swindlers. The frontier is what it is. Now, How do I protect/conserve this forest if I don't hold that line? And how can I sustain this without some source of income? Further, why am I the trouble maker and all is good for the cattleman? Money talks right? I'm looking at bananas in this context. It protects the young trees and we're getting some food too. Things should settle down within a couple of years, during this time, should I grow a population of diverse alternates to the Cavendish? Is this silly or sensible? If yes, how should I schedule/sequence thingss? etc. (sorry, that sounds so needy.. I actually want to ask you the scientific names of the species you suggest because common names change 20 miles)

lorax

Sounds very similar to my own situation. I've had good luck employing the local tribes, but the same intimidation problems crop up. It's why we all carry blowguns, and why in one of the reserves we have canopy ropes. You can't protect your forest unless you're willing to enforce boundaries, and the best way to keep your workers dedicated is to give them a real stake in what you're doing. Mine are all part of the reserve in a very physical way - they're integral to the natural medicine research program, and they have a share in the gardens, so they're actually protecting their own livelihoods. I'm hoping to start a tapir breeding project to help reduce the poaching that occurs in the area; we already breed guanta (agouti relatives)

I'd say your fastest route to some extra spending money is to grow the alternative bananas - they're a fast crop, and they're not affected overmuch by the monsoons. It's very sensible to begin there and with papayas. For bananas, I'd reccomend what will most likely be called Morados or Guineo Rosado (these are Jamaican Reds), and Oritos/Bananitos (these are "baby" bananas), along with plantains of some sort, and if you can get your hands on any of the pink-fleshed bananas.

If so, start planting RIGHT NOW. Go out into your surrounding community and beg, borrow, barter, and buy all the banana pups you can fit on your burro. Plant in rings of about 10' diameter, interspersed with papaya to reduce incidence of disease. These two plants have a number of advantages, beginning with fast maturity and ending with highly saleable crops. It's probably also a good idea to plant Guavas; they're very drought hardy, thrive in depleted soils, and they are handy nitrogen-fixers.

On the hardwoods front, here's the list.

Teak = Tectona spp. I have T. grandis in a number of forests.
Cedron = Cedrela odorata and C. montana
Ahuano = Swietenia macrophylla. AKA Caoba
Palo Santo = Bursera graveolens - this is an incensewood.
Canelo = Drimys winteri - this is used in luthiery (guitarmaking) and prized as a hardwood.
Balsa = Oochroma pyramidalis
Sangre de Drago = Croton eleuteria and Croton lechlerii
Canela = Cinammomum spp
Cassia = Cassia spp
Senna = Senna spp
Jacaranda = Jacaranda copaia
Rosewood = Dalbergia nigra
Purpleheart = Peltogyne spp
Jatoba / Brazilian Cherry / Guapinol = Hymenaea courbaril

In the very long-run, it's also a good idea to plant some nut trees. Cashews, Macadamia, and Juglans neotropica (tropical Walnut) are all valuable both as food and timber trees.

If I were you, I'd also be planting Cecropia spp (I like C. palmata, but see what's native to your forests), Yaloman (I have no idea what this is actually called scientifically; it's a legume tree with fragrant purple flowers that resemble Pawlonia), and Ceiba pentandra. It's also a good idea to culture in palms; the best for this are Socratea exorrhiza, Mauritia flexuosa, and Bactris gasiapes - these three produce edible and saleable fruits. You'll probably also have good luck with Inga edulis (Guabo), a fast-grower that produces giant edible beans.

mahning

Thank you for so much for this!
The local tribes idea would not work in my situation. Various organizations come repeatedly with that template and they just get picked (and they don't mind: money spent=mission accomplished ;-) they also spoiled the work ethics and spurred the growth of a class of opportunists always looking for "projects" in representation of this or that community (communities which know them as rascals, thieves and drunks but they don't dare speak in fear of reprisal). Just too much money is being flashed around. But I’m super happy this works in you context. I hope you can share the daily reality of it, so we can learn.

I’ll do what you say for the bananas. I saw your Bananas in Mixed Culture paper (thank you) and was wondering about the overall scale of each ring. Are you saying 10 feet diameter? In the places that have been only partly affected (still some trees and burnt only once), we are actually planting in rows (cutting separate trails through the bush). It’s practical that way and I hope to get something good from the seeds still in the ground. What do you think of it?
Yes papaya comes fast and gives a lot of food.
About banana and plantain species, we got some very tasty small ones and my forest guard swears by his “filipita” platanos. I’ll try to get some decent pictures.

About trees, we have some Cedrela odorata, Swietenia macrophylla and Hymenaea courbaril, but not the other species.
Common local species are:
Carapa guianensis
Hyeronima Alchorneoides
Dialium guianense
Terminalia amazonia
Virola sebifera
Dipteryx panamensis
Symphonia Globulifera
Cordia alliodora
Vochysia hondurensis
Cojoba arborea
Vochysia ferruginea
Tabebuia guayacan
Calophyllum brasiliense
Brosimum alicastrum (or B.terrabanum -not quiet sure yet)
Manilkara achras
Maclura tinctoria (or Vatairea lundellii - not sure yet, but would make a big difference no?)

I’d love to get some Balsa seeds to restore cover by riverbanks and in the worse places.
It’s weird how difficult it can be to get seeds.
Thank you so much for all you suggestions, I’ll look to see what I can find locally.

For nuts, we plant Brosimum alicastrum, but our fauna is so messed up that we have to grow the seedlings on suspended beds to protect them from the small rodents that took over the place and will eat any nuts we seed (the dog refuses to get involved – I’m looking for a python ;-)

Jack Daw

Seems like there are some pretty serious issues. What do you do for living? Reforestations? Or something else?
How much does 20hA (apx 50 acres of soil cost in your country)? Considering some part of the country distant from major country's commerce cities to about 50km (30 miles) suitable for growing the food and reforestation?
Prices in $.

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Thnx to Marcel, Ante, Dr. Chiranjit Parmar and Francesco for the plants I've received.



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lorax

I do mean 10' diameter for the rings - that gives the canopies enough room to spread and breathe and discourages diseases like Sigatoka. Generally it's about 6-8 plants in the ring to start with, and then choose the pups that are "walking" within the confines of the circle, and separate off the ones that are going in the wrong direction.

If you have rows cleared, plant on 6' centers to ensure enough room for the mature plants, and select the pups that "walk" in the line of the rows.

On a completely different note, have you tried Plukenetia volubilis as a nut/oil crop? It's showing great promise here in Ecuador and further South in Peru. The upside is that rodents won't attack the vines.

mahning

many questions at once!
the issues are the same as elswhere, but with fewer buffers, the grasp is more immediate.
The intent was conservation and it was not my profession (people who do this for a living avoid such situations (where are they then? don't ask me I'm just the fool). I'm giving it increasingly more than I should. given the relentless pressure and the damage done, conservation turned to reforestation. the idea is that defensive battles are lost battles, the correct response to the advance of the "agricultural frontier" is the advance of the "forest front".