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Tissue Culturing & Other Propagation Techniques of Banana Plants This forum is for discussing propagation techniques of banana plants. Tissue culturing is the popular process of creating clones from a source plant. There are other techniques to propagate banana plants however, such as nicking corms or dividing corms. Learn more inside.


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Old 09-05-2020, 09:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Genetics of banana parthenocarpy

Hello! Iím new to the forum and Iím unsure of where to ask this but this sub forum seems closest, especially considering my plan will involve a decent amount of micropropagation.
So Iím a biotech guy/lab tech by trade and Iím gonna do something dumb with banana genetics. My plan is to use somatic fusion to make a hybrid between a short cycle AA type banana like Patupi and M. Velutina which Iíve heard flowers and ripens quickly/have personally seen set fruit and ripen in a local Botanical garden, then make a Triploid if necessary either by crossing the result back to velutina or crossing it with a M. itinerans or a basjoo. The end goal is a cold hardy edible banana
I have the tools, tech, and resources (though Iíll need to practice the exact skills) but my main question is: How many copies of the parthenocarpy genes are Necessary for the banana to be able to have edible fruit?
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Old 09-11-2020, 03:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Genetics of banana parthenocarpy

Only one copy is needed but there are multiple genes. Even with lab skills, I think your plans are overly ambitious and you should look deeper into the genetic relationships between these species you want to work with. For example, AA cultivars and M. velutina can more or less cross ok by conventional methods, but M. itinerans and M. basjoo are close to each other but far from M. acuminata and M. velutina, and are quite incompatible even with pure species, not to mention hybrids or otherwise mixed-genome individuals. Also, expecting to produce a triploid by crossing means you ought to start with a tetraploid and cross to diploids, which means doing chromosome doubling first (not necessarily an easy task, but doable, however confirming your results is a labor intensive process unless you have free access to a flow cytometer). I understand the fun in playing around in the lab, but if you want to start somewhere that has a chance but far less complicated, just try crossing Patupi and M. velutina conventionally by pollination. That’s a serious challenge in it’s own right just horticulturally speaking, but if you can’t manage even that I don’t see how any of your other plans are going to stand a chance or result in anything.
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Old 09-11-2020, 04:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Genetics of banana parthenocarpy

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Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
Only one copy is needed but there are multiple genes. Even with lab skills, I think your plans are overly ambitious and you should look deeper into the genetic relationships between these species you want to work with. For example, AA cultivars and M. velutina can more or less cross ok by conventional methods, but M. itinerans and M. basjoo are close to each other but far from M. acuminata and M. velutina, and are quite incompatible even with pure species, not to mention hybrids or otherwise mixed-genome individuals. Also, expecting to produce a triploid by crossing means you ought to start with a tetraploid and cross to diploids, which means doing chromosome doubling first (not necessarily an easy task, but doable, however confirming your results is a labor intensive process unless you have free access to a flow cytometer). I understand the fun in playing around in the lab, but if you want to start somewhere that has a chance but far less complicated, just try crossing Patupi and M. velutina conventionally by pollination. Thatís a serious challenge in itís own right just horticulturally speaking, but if you canít manage even that I donít see how any of your other plans are going to stand a chance or result in anything.

Many a discovery has been made by someone this did not know it would not work.
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Old 09-12-2020, 03:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Genetics of banana parthenocarpy

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Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
Only one copy is needed but there are multiple genes. Even with lab skills, I think your plans are overly ambitious and you should look deeper into the genetic relationships between these species you want to work with. For example, AA cultivars and M. velutina can more or less cross ok by conventional methods, but M. itinerans and M. basjoo are close to each other but far from M. acuminata and M. velutina, and are quite incompatible even with pure species, not to mention hybrids or otherwise mixed-genome individuals. Also, expecting to produce a triploid by crossing means you ought to start with a tetraploid and cross to diploids, which means doing chromosome doubling first (not necessarily an easy task, but doable, however confirming your results is a labor intensive process unless you have free access to a flow cytometer). I understand the fun in playing around in the lab, but if you want to start somewhere that has a chance but far less complicated, just try crossing Patupi and M. velutina conventionally by pollination. Thatís a serious challenge in itís own right just horticulturally speaking, but if you canít manage even that I donít see how any of your other plans are going to stand a chance or result in anything.
I understand that this is absolutely overambitious but thatís what will make it fun! I also understand I will fail a lot

Thank you the info though! Itís good to know the relationship between M. Velutina and Patupi is somewhat close and that only a few genes will be hypothetically necessary for parthenocarpy. Somatic fusion will inherently produce tetraploids with the AAVV genome so making a triploid from it should be relatively easy by backcrossing it to velutina.

Somatic fusionís main draw as a technique is it allows two sexually incompatible species to be ďcrossedĒ so there may be merit in just applying the technique with Patupi and basjoo. However, my concerns with that are that basjoo Iíve heard is a relatively long cycle banana which isnít great and the higher sexual incompatible probably will affect the male fertility making it a genetic dead end.
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Old 09-13-2020, 01:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Genetics of banana parthenocarpy

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Originally Posted by Auzziem View Post
I understand that this is absolutely overambitious but thatís what will make it fun! I also understand I will fail a lot

Thank you the info though! Itís good to know the relationship between M. Velutina and Patupi is somewhat close and that only a few genes will be hypothetically necessary for parthenocarpy. Somatic fusion will inherently produce tetraploids with the AAVV genome so making a triploid from it should be relatively easy by backcrossing it to velutina.

Somatic fusionís main draw as a technique is it allows two sexually incompatible species to be ďcrossedĒ so there may be merit in just applying the technique with Patupi and basjoo. However, my concerns with that are that basjoo Iíve heard is a relatively long cycle banana which isnít great and the higher sexual incompatible probably will affect the male fertility making it a genetic dead end.
I donít mean to discourage you from attempting any and all experiments, but I will caution about the difficulty actually involved in simply making a cross of any sort, and to plan ahead on how to make it happen. Itís not enough to just have the two plants you want to cross, they also need to be flowering at the exact right stage and time for the desired cross, which because banana male and female flowers appear at different times, those two plants must be at different stages. Additionally, because of the quirks of working with any edible cultivar, itís normally necessary to repeat the cross multiple times. In order to achieve this, I normally make sure to have at least 5-10 plants of each parent growing at a time if I want to deliberately cross them, so increase the chance of having them flower at the proper times relative to eachother.
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Old 09-13-2020, 03:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Genetics of banana parthenocarpy

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Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
I donít mean to discourage you from attempting any and all experiments, but I will caution about the difficulty actually involved in simply making a cross of any sort, and to plan ahead on how to make it happen. Itís not enough to just have the two plants you want to cross, they also need to be flowering at the exact right stage and time for the desired cross, which because banana male and female flowers appear at different times, those two plants must be at different stages. Additionally, because of the quirks of working with any edible cultivar, itís normally necessary to repeat the cross multiple times. In order to achieve this, I normally make sure to have at least 5-10 plants of each parent growing at a time if I want to deliberately cross them, so increase the chance of having them flower at the proper times relative to eachother.
Iím not discouraged at all! Though, I feel that I should and should have earlier explained that somatic fusion is a technique where you take a vegetative cell from each parent and use enzymes+chemicals+hormones to fuse them into a single cell that has the entire genomes of both ďparentsĒ so at least for the first step all Iíll need is a hunk of leave from both parents and I donít need to worry about flowering. Although what youíve said is important if I make it to the second step of making a triploid and Iíll definitely keep it in mind!
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