banana13

Hello. What are the different gros michael varieties and their heights? thanks much!

CountryBoy1981

There is gros michel (15 feet plus), highgate, and cocos. The highgate and cocos are shorter, one being shorter than the other. The only one that I know of being relatively available in the continental us is the 15 ft + gros michel. There are others on this board that would have much more knowledge as to the highgate and cocos.

shannondicorse

banana13,

Larter of the Jamaica Banana Board lists in a(I think,1949..) paper, first of all, a Gros Michel "type" variety; and variants presumably obtained as somaclonal sports in Jamaica (Gros Michel might have entered Jamaica early in the 19th Century):

Highgate, Pink Jamaica, Glengoffe, Plantain Jamaica, Freehill, & Weeping Jamaica. In addition, there is a shorter variety called Lowgate, emanating out of Jamaica.

I cannot vouch for the modern validity or currency of these names.

I haven't a clue of what is available in extratropical areas.

On Trinidad island, where I am currently based, I've seen about four Gros Michel types - though there might well be more. I cannot say what their names are; and whether or not some (or any!) are indigenous mutants. They are all rather tall; some awesomely so!

I can imagine that there must be loads of variants uncatalogued on farmers' plots in the Far East. Peasant farmers are often skilled horticulturalists and almost ALWAYS select favourable/attractive/curious new sports occurring on their plants; mainly for the sheer fun of it!

There is a myth that these bananas were unknown before their "discovery" by the corporate monoculturalists who "developed" the export banana market and played such a huge role in the affairs of the so-called "banana republics".

Fact is, wherever you go, Gros Michel varieties and cavendish varieties were and are recognised and valued by peasant farmers; whether they were newly introduced or resident in a country for hundreds (...thousands?) of years.

There is also a myth that the Gros Michel & Cavendish types are on their ways to "extinction". No way!!!

shannon

shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

banana13

So then we have gros michael, highgate, cocos, aren't there some FHIA gros michael hybrids?

shannondicorse

banana13,

The vars I referred to in my previous post were actually "sports" or mutations arising out of suckers from Gros Michel proper. So they have much of the Gros Michel properties. I guess they can be considered "true" Gros Michel vars.

Hybrids (usually tetraploids) derived from Gros Michel are quite another matter.

I know of the ICTA (Trinidad) & the JBB (Jamaica) hybrids like IC-1, IC-2, 3405-1, 168-12, Bodles Altafort and such.

I know of the Gros Michel tetraploid SH-3436 from FHIA. There most likely are many others. They might be on FHIA's website.

Segregation apparently occurs in aberrant meiosis in Gros Michel; with restitution to produce AAA ovules being common. So the AAAA offspring can & do vary quite a lot. Though they are Gros Michel derivatives they can't really be called Gros Michel. They certainly don't taste like Gros Michel for the most part.

But it is possible that by continued sexual propagation of progeny from these tetraploids, we can get good segregates; thus procure reasonable bananas for the export trade... and "save" the "industry" yet!

BTW... IF ANYONE HAS DOCUMENTATION OF GROS MICHEL DERIVED HYBRIDS - PLEASE SEND IT TO ME AT THE EMAIL BELOW... there is so much to learn here. Thanks so much.



shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

Nicolas Naranja

FHIA-17 and FHIA-23 are derived from highgate.

__________________
Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

banana13

Thanks.

shannondicorse

WOW! Thanks a lot Nicolas. This helps. I really do need this sort of help. It might seem small to you... but it helps point the way to me...

Notice these two FHIAs are the result of the same cross (Highgate x SH-3362). See below. Since the male parent SH-3362 is a synthetic diploid and presumably rather homozygous; differences between FHIAs 17 & 23 might be in part due to meiosis in the presumably heterozygous Gros Michel female parent.

Since I cannot easily get access to SH-3362 ( a synthetic diploid I much admire..) on Trinidad I'm trying to synthesise Muraru/Mlali-like AAs from my paltry palette of Gros Michel vars, Cavendish vars, IC-2, 3504-1, 168-12, Musa acuminata malaccensis, M. acuminata zebrina... and (get this!) a naturally reconsituted set of ostensibly AA bananas growing in a wild hybrid swarm in a disturbed rain forest on Trinidad.

Breeding bananas might be convoluted... but it sure is fun!

According to Musapedia, FHIA-23 at a glance:

Ploidy level: 4x
Genome group: AAAA
Status: synthetic hybrid
Breeding institute: FHIA
Breeder's code: SH-3444
Pedigree: AAA Gros Michel cv. Highgate x SH-3362
ITC code: 1265

------------------------FHIA-17 at a glance:

Ploidy level: 4x
Genome group: AAAA
Status: synthetic hybrid
Breeding institute: FHIA
Breeder's code: SH-3649
Pedigree: AAA Gros Michel Highgate x SH-3362
ITC code: 1264

shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

shannondicorse

BTW, Nicolas ...and any other Plantain cognoscenti... I'm propagating an AAAB Horn plantain hybrid ( AAB "True Plantain" X AA banana) possibly out of FHIA or IITA. It, uh, "found its way" to Trinidad's shores in the last two decades.

Agronomically, it seems far superior to true plantains and can do a lot to get Trinidad peasant banana, plantain and cacao cultivation out of the tailspin in which it is now.

Does anyone on the list have field experience with plantain hybrids of FHIA and IITA?

Thanks,

shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

banana13

ehh, have you tried germplasm reserves to acquire these cultivars? (the muraru). or do you already have it and want to synthesize a new version?

shannondicorse

banana13,

No to the first question. No to the 1st part of the second question. I do wish to synthesise Muraru/Mlali like AAs with an unprecedented broad genetic base.

EXPANSION: I can try to line breed several such diploid lineages to capture the Muraru/Mlali genetic variation thereof; plus the disease resistance and broader gene base of various wild AAs in my possession; plus the diverse and complex A genomes of the cultivars I have; and use these to get many tolerable AAA Cavendish & Gros Michel replacements for peasant farmers.

When it comes to peasant holdings and bananas, I advocate genetically disparate massively polyclonal culture.

It is a bit of a shame that much of the early banana breeding activities was centred around creating solely export bananas. One or two clones that would "save the industry". This is a narrow and rapacious view of banana agriculture. But this is, to my mind, par for the course within the "industry".

Actually, long before the export trade had sprung up to become the dominating and distorting behemoth that it became, the Cavendish & Gros Michel types were highly valued by peasant farmers - firstly in the Old World and then the New.

Today these bananas still seem universally worthwhile quite apart from their desirability as export bananas to colder climes.

Tetraploids of these types are relatively easy to produce but usually have several deficits in a peasant situation. Triploids are the way to go. The current breeding strategies aim for triploids in the long run; but by unnecessarily circuitous routes through tetraploid releases.

Additionally, the fertile diploids currently employed to convey disease resistance etc to the Gros Michel & Cavendish type genome are very few and genetically very narrow.

So all we are currently doing is reshuffling an extremely small deck.


shannon


shannon.di.corse@gmail.com

banana13

Any other replies to my original question? any other gros michael variants?