jeffreyp

My comments were never meant to be a slam or derogatory against you or anyone on this board - take a deep breath and relax.. It's my opinion that CG is an orinoco type. I agree communication can be challenging sometimes... When someone comes over and asks for a glass of water is that an endless conversation in your home? Would you like a tall glass or short glass? Was that mineral or sparkling water? Did you want it on ice or without ice...gotta be specific now...lol

I think it's not good economic to buy a CG on ebay often selling them for 40 - 60 dollars per plant when you can buy an orinoco for 10-20 dollars. Even If CG was a sport of orinoco, most people outside of those marginal growing areas in california wouldnt see a benefit to growing cg anyhow.

Actually banana plants rarely sport. FHIA and other organizations often induce sporting in TC with chemicals or radiation because sporting is so uncommon with field grown plants. It's also why FHIA spends ALOT of time searching for seeds in their banana fruits they have manually pollinated. If sporting was a common occurance, this would be another way to obtain useful varieties. This is why there are huge problems with fungal diseases such as black sigatoka, panama disease, bacterial wilt, nematodes, etc.

Take a look at these articles..

http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=1597
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...o-bananas.html

JoeReal

Jeffrey,

Yes, sometimes people do get overboard, especially when it comes to selling. Unless genetic tests are run, nothing would really be conclusive aside from genetic tests. I myself have seen also variations in heights of CG, from 4 ft to 10 ft pseudostem fruiting height, from various friends and places, even from the same clump, yearly variations I observed in fruiting height, but is true with other bananas. I suspect that CG, Orinoco and Saba all are triploids composed of ABB genome.

Bananas mutate a lot, especially CG when multiplied with TC methods, that is why it is unreliable when sold as TC'ed plants. So price remained high just like the Ae-ae which has the same TC problems. But techniques are improving, and prices will come down someday. I still wish for true genetic tests.

Regards,

Joe

jearl

Well well... I guess it my turn to add my 2 cents worth... First let me tell you MR Good Eats ( Jeff. P ) .... If being in the media makes you you a banana expert... ( It doesn't )
Then I guess I am a banana expert...( I am not )

My work with bananas grown in marginal climates has been featured on no less than 6 TV programs and 6 different newspapers and in the Journal of the California rare fruit growers.
You whine ( ie " Its very questionable ) because I list Cal Gold for a friggin starting bid $29? Its in no way my fault if the bidding sometimes hits $50 or $60... Its supply and demand... I only sell less than ten a year. I am a honest backyard grower...Who has often spent more than $29 each on most of my mail order banana plants ( a little less for spindly TC plants.)

My auction descriptions are truthful ... straight forward and honest. I list a brief history, a description of of the plant and how well it performs in my garden. Along with a video showing them being aired on live TV loaded with fruit...After a winter where our temps had dropped to 25f! no less) what more can you ask for?
Others have shared with you similar results that I have. I have never heard anything other than good things about CalGold ( A big deal since many people who buy plants from me have such a brown thumb they can't even grow crabgrass )
So lets chill out. We are supposed to be sharing the knowledge we have ... not spouting off.
At least you must have went back and reread my ebay auction. You'll see that I offer my opinion as to it being related to the orinoco, blugoe, Ice Cream family. I might also add... that it also resembles Saba and and Cardaba as well.
And It is cold hardy!

I will do this... If you want to run your own genetic tests.... I will provide you a free tissue sample... you can have it analyzed for your self if it would make you happy.... but to be honest. In side by side comparesons... They don't look exactly like any other banana I have grown. And they taste different as well.

By the way... In my nearly thirty years of banana experimentation... I have seen banana mutation with my own eyes. It happens...I'm no scientist.. but I have seen it.

Enough said from me.

Jeff Earl

jeffreyp

Hey Jeff,

Check all of my posts..I personally have NEVER insinuated that being on good eats made me a banana expert. It was a fun show to participate in, and I am glad some on the board got a chance to see it and enjoy it. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how that related to your comment "We are supposed to be sharing the knowledge we have ... not spouting off." Hmm..I kinda missed your logic on that one..Anyhow.. I DO claim to know more than the average joe about banana plants since I have been growing many different varieties for over 20 years here in south florida. 20 years is like 40 years of growing bannas for those living in northern climates (we have twice the growing season). We can grow things year round outside and make observations on our plants year round. Those living up north have a short limited growing season and this limits your overall experience. Currently I have over 20 varieties and over 300 banana plants in my yard. I have yet to see unique varieties spontaneously appear via sporting..Here's a quote from the plant breeding unit of the fao/iaea "Although spontaneous mutations have contributed to the genetic diversity of Musa and significantly increased its variation, their frequency is very low." That's why most banana plants are genetically frozen in time.

Hey I am happy for you that you can make that kind of money selling your plants...more power to you. Orinoco is commonly grown in Georgia, the Carolinas, Louisiana, etc where winter temps regularly and commonly hit the mid to high 20's. I have seen many a orinoco easily recover from winter temps in those areas thus I am not particularly convinced you have some new mysterious variety. I have even seen large stands of SABA as far north as Knoxville with fruit. That's why in my original post, I question the value in buying a 40 or maybe 60 dollar plant on ebay when the only benefit seems to be in a small geographical area in california. I have friends in louisiana and georgia who regularly get fruit off their orinocos (and these areas regularly experience freezing temps in the winter).

JoeReal

Let me state my qualifications. I have been growing bananas for 39 years, from the Philippines to Texas to Southern to Northern California. Planted my first banana pup when I was 5 years old. Have dealt at least with more than 100 banana cultivars, if you agree to what a cultivar is, in this very big chaotic mess of naming bananas, then I do have more than twice that.

Todate, I only have 45 planting holes but I do have more than 355 fruiting cultivars, occupying only about 725 square ft of land. I have a world record citrus tree that I assembled and have 50 varieties on them and currently loaded with fruits on 35 cultivars. I have all of UC Riverside's blood oranges and pigmented oranges grafted together into one tree. My cherries are 2 dozen in one tree, my plums are 3 dozen to one tree, my asian pears, I have quite a collection in one tree, European pears, I only graft the best together, all of the pluots sold at retail nursery, I have them, even grapes were not forgiven when it comes to multi-grafts. My persimmons are almost ever blooming perhaps due to multi-graft interactions. And sport mutations, I will not be surprised with all of these multi-grafts.

Perhaps I am very lucky to see before my eyes sport mutations of bananas, as I have seen Saba plants that bloomed and bear fruit at 5 ft pseudostem height which was taken from a clump that usually towers to 25 ft high. I suspect there are others when it comes to variegation, but variegation isn't worth that much to me when I was after the fruits, so did not pay much attention to variegation. Mutations in bananas can be induced with stress, water, temperature, pH, also fungicides, insecticides, fertilizers, biological interactions with microbes, or simply taking out the pups. It is not as fast as Poof! like in TV shows, doesn't work that way.

Now right before my eyes, happening at this very moment, after plucking a pawpaw branch and planting it in a pot, amazingly that cutting grew and something is happening. Is this nutrient deficiency or pure variegated sport? the pattern of variegation looks the same as that of most variegated plants and it is happening only on one branch for now. Guess, I will have to nurture this, maybe repot it and hope the variegation stays.



There are more mutations happening left and right in this more polluted increasingly warming world. If you haven't seen anything, perhaps you needed to be more keen with your observations.

In this respect, by saying that CG and Orinoco are one and the same cultivar even if all testimonies and individual evidences presented, perhaps you could tell FHIA that Gran Nain, Dwarf Cavendish, Mahoi, Williams Hybrid, Regular Cavendish are one and the same. They exactly have the same shape of fruits, same taste, same color. The major differences at the supermarket is that their labels are Bonita, Dole, Del Monte, Chiquita. LOL!!!

jeffreyp

Joe,

I dont think there are major differences in fruit quality\morphology in dwarf cavendish, mahoi (except double\triple flowering), regular cavendish, williams and gran naine. As matter of fact, I think fhia would be comfortable saying they are more or less the same in regards to fruit quality. That's why you have the name "cavendish" in most of those varieties (regular\giant cavendish, Double (Mahoi) Cavendish, dwarf cavendish, and gran nain is actually a cultivar of cavendish). What's been presented about CG is that it's a very different tasting banana, has different growth habits, and the fruit morphology is very different.

My compliments on your extensive growing experience . The avg joe comment is an idiom...obviously not referring to you... I have been very observant of all the bananas I have grown and have yet to see a sport. I would say every day I parouse the groves.. Let me say this.. FHIA wouldn't bother with careful hand pollination and harvesting 1000's upon 1000's of fruits to find a single viable seed out all those fruits that were hand pollinated. And then after that, to go through the hastle of embryo extraction to grow that seed if sporting\natural mutations were common place among banana plants. Hence the reason why experts\plant biologists say that the banana of the supermarket has been genetically frozen in time.


http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science...ccdrcrd/3.html
http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=1597
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...o-bananas.html

JoeReal

Since these cavendishes are nonetheless recognized by majority of us to be truly different cultivars, it was perhaps logical for Jeff Earl and others including me to conclude that in the same way CG and Orinoco could be different cultivars, more so that we have detected differences in taste and and morphology. Of course I also agree with you that the CG and orinoco are more or less the same type as the listed cavendishes are the same type.


Thanks for the compliments, same here on your experience, I do respect your experiences and opinions as well. As to the mutations being common, it is also a matter of perspective. To the advantage of FHIA, labor is cheap, to comb out a single seed from thousands of fruits. I myself have painstakingly counted individual rice grains, thousands of them too, during my graduate studies. I used to work at International Rice Research Institute, and UC Davis, and sifting through filled and unfilled grains... It is a big hassle to most people, but not to me, certainly not to plant breeders, who are ever patient, a matter of perspective too. Have assisted several researchers by using statistics to sift through several thousand cultivars, from various field trials all over the world. So mutations could be common or not, depending on point of view. Now we have Genetically Modified or engineered crops to be glad or worried about.

After all of those experimentations, especially from plant breeding, outstanding cultivars are actually not a rare find. The same so with mutations, from peaches to bananas, the odds previously stated by plant breeders are overblown. Just my opinions, which I can back with data and experience.

mikevan

Wrong. You are discussing apples and oranges which illuminates your lack of understanding in this area - please do some research on breeding before using that in a debate over sports and mutations. In the realm of breeding, especially where share-holders and annual budgets are at stake, no one will wait for the occasional mutation of which even there only a few are lucky in some ways unless that mutation is instigated via TC purposefully. Even then, most TC mutation goes in the trash. Purposeful crossing and research will always be the primary way to develop new fruit and resistant strains - mutations are simply too unreliable in that avenue. Hardiness will never be a priority in breeding given the existing and well established banana agricultural system. Breeding is performed with a concrete goal and a planned approach that is impossible with waiting for mutations. Mutations are just that - lucky sports. Even so, they're rarely the answer to the goals of most breeders. You'll find variegations, climactic acclimatization, diverse fruit characteristics and whatnot in sports and mutations. But the primary goal of market breeders is to maintain the generic and successful market banana as closely as possible with the goal of developing disease resistance, higher productivity and ease of harvest and maintenance as much as possible - something no one will ever achieve in a timely and cost effect manner by sitting on a lawn chair with a banana daiquiri waiting for that sport to pop up. You may have a high familiarity with the bananas immediately under your care, but I suggest you do some research into general horticultural science before proceeding down that road.

Mike

jeffreyp

Are you a commercial grower Mike? What is your background? Maybe you didn't know this, but let me illuminate this for you. Researchers at places like fhia dont use sports because they are pathetically uncommon. Traits such disease resistance and fruit quality are qualities sought after.

The reason why they don't use mutations is because the rate of mutations in field grown bananas is very very low but to say the tc labs throw them all away is absolutely false.. .

There ARE groups intentionally mutating bananas via TC for commercial purposes.

http://www.iaea.or.at/programmes/ria...ue_culture.htm

http://www.intl-pag.org/13/PDF/1_15_...20induction%22

http://www.scipub.net/agriculture/ba...mutations.html

JoeReal

One big advantage of plant breeding in bananas is that once you have evaluated a new hybrid and found it to be acceptable, you can propagate it vegetatively. It is true that mutations are more accidental than intentional. Hybridizations and mutations occur naturally in the wild for bananas. And once a superior combo comes about, it can propagate vegetatively. We can use various approaches today, genetic enginerring, intra-species gene splicing, irradation, chemical and other stress induced mutations, and of course, the ever reliable plant breeding...

Like Mikevan have said, I wish they specifically bred for cold hardiness, but that would not be good for the tropical industries when the temperate locations can have grow their own bananas economically. Most cold hardiness are evaluated and detected by guys like us, sharing our experiences as to what worked and what did not. Sharing these information truthfully and honestly would benefit us all. Test for cold hardiness in the backyards of brave and hard headed hobbyists could not be afforded even by FHIA, but by us hobbyists, if we share the information. Our aim is not to commercially poduce bananas here in the temperate zone so as to dethrone the tropical banana industry. That's never one of the goals of backyard hobbyists, and thus we are just a niche market. So if prices of CG are somewhat exhorbitant compared to others, that's the market is, simply a niche.

Coming back to the topic of CG, who knows what the original cultivar is, but through time, by continuously grown here in the central valley, it must have continuously been under selection pressure to winters of zone 9, and we have selected the most reliable fruit bearers from those originally carted off by immigrants. The taste also have changed along with it. And I suspect that there could be genetic differences now with the ancestral cultivar that was first planted here. While there are specific differences, there would still be tremendous genetic similarities, perhaps 99.99%. (The same as humans, don't be surprised if we have more than 98% similar genetic makeup as some of our non-human relatives)

jeffreyp

Joe,

I'd actually like to see a cold hardy banana that could reliably and commercially produce fruit in the deep south - or even up north or that matter. One of the BIG problems we have here in south florida with citrus is a disease called citrus greening. It's basically the equivelent of AIDS for citrus trees. Infected trees go into decline and eventually die in 7 years. From what I have read, citrus greening is not a problem in northern borderline areas of china where the weather is colder. Perhaps either the psyllids can't handle the cold that carry the bacteria or the bacteria itself can't complete it's lifecycle in colder climates - thus keeping the trees free from the disease. Maybe all of the diseases affecting bananas can be circumvented by growing them in less humid/tropical regions of the world? I would love to try the helen's hybrid fruit - a cross between the hardy musa sikkimensis and sweet desert banana. It's supposed to be as hardy or nearly as hardy as musa sikkimensis. The closest thing to a cold hardy banana with good tasting fruit (albeit seeded) for up north.

JoeReal

Jeffrey, based on our computer models and opinions, it is just a matter of time as to when it will hit southern California. I am unsure of the Northern California though. Our winters have become significantly milder these past 5 years.

Thanks for the info. I wonder where we could obtain this. I have M. sikkimensis which is just at par with CG when it comes to cold hardiness in my yard. Is there any breeding done with Musella lasiocarpa to make it edible?

JoeReal

BTW, California Gold, although reliable producer, doesn't produce more than 35 lbs of bananas per pseudostem, perhaps bananavilla or jearl have attained more than this. But from various friends, we obtained anywhere from 5 lbs to 35 lbs each year, so it is not a candidate for commercial fruit production in our area. I don't think it will ever be economically viable. But as something to show off in our yard, and real banana fruits coming from your yard, that is priceless.

jeffreyp

Joe,

I love fresh citrus, and I'd hate to see it disappear from the USA because of greening. I have my fingers crossed that the cooler weather of northern california can stop it from affecting that part of California. Who knows, maybe the cold staps that occur in north/central florida will keep the disease in check there as well.

As far as helen's hybrid goes, the only place I know of where to buy it is from

http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/pix/MusHyb.shtml

I heard there was a grower somewhere here in the usa that has plants for sale, but I don't know where. Maybe someone else here can chime in on that..

Unfortunately, I don't think there has been any breeding work done with musella.

http://www.nmnh.si.edu/rtp/students/...2_versieux.htm

It would be extremely interesting if some work could be done to make a chimera out of musa and musella to form a winter hardy sweet banana. Interestingly, I shipped some musa basjoo up to my dad's place in the frozen tundra of Connecticut and they are growing wonderfully up there. One of them is over 6 ft. tall now.

jearl

JeffP...So lets see... Then so if I understand you... all simular types should be labeled under the same name, even if there are variations? With that ideology there might be a dozen or so types of bananas ... instead of what we know to be more than a thousand.
BTW... California Gold ... didn't spontaneously appear. If you read the history about where I got my first pup... I bought it from someone in Texas whom I believe got it from Mexico. I didn't develop it....If it was a sport... It most likely came from SOB. Not in my yard.

Also... I think one of your posts really helps me to understand what this whole conversation is about. Money!

In another post...You said... "Hey I am happy for you that you can
make that kind of money selling your plants...more power to you."

What kind of money are you talking about? A couple hundred bucks a year at best? Please... Its not enough to buy an estate in Kona....
Even at that ..Ebay/Paypal, shipping materials and the cost of transportation to and from the post office considered. I am lucky to make $20 to $25 a plant.
If you want to start a crusade against high plant prices.... Go after those A.Hole's that sell 4 inch ( 2 oz )TC bananas. Put them in a toilet paper tube ....Ship 1st class for 50 cents ..Charge $10 each plus $10 s/h. They almost always die.
The plants that I sell are are almost always 2 ft tall plus and weigh 2 to 4 lbs each.
Or... is it the way I market them that upsets you? Can you blame me for showing the plants off? Can you blame me for showing fat bunches of ripe fruit grown in an area where NO ONE that I have ever seen fruit bananas?

As I believe you once said... There are Orinocos everywhere in California
( not an exact quote ) Then tell me please.... why is it that in the Modesto- stockton area ( Over 1 million live here ) there many people who have Orinoco plants in their yards.... yet not a single one has fruit on it? Yet everyone in my area that I have sold or gave away CalGolds to have fruited the plant within 2 years!... and do so year after year.

Sorry if this topic seems to anger you.

Joe Real lives in the same climate zone as I and his banana growig experiences are pretty much same as mine. I have never met him before, but he seems to have his stuff together.
Enough said on the subject.


Jeff Earl

Mike Lee

I'd have to agree with Mike. This has been a fun discussion to read. I recently bought one of Jeff Earl's Calif. Golds on Ebay and I was happy to pay the $50 or so it cost. I don't think Jeff Earl can be faulted that folks like myself are willing to pay that much for his pups. And I don't think he can be faulted if he tells a great story of his experiences as well.

And Jeff P., while I'm personally a bit more cautious of what I say, I'm glad you spoke out about what your experiences and opinion on this. It takes guts to go against the grain.

The result for me, is I'm even more curious to see how this pup will do and what it'll look like. So keep the flames going!

__________________
Mike Lee
Forestville, CA Zone 9

jeffreyp

Fruiting can be affected by alot of factors. I suspect that you probably give your plants a bit more tlc and care than most do. At least here on the east coast, people are pretty much set it and forget it gardeners. I have some bananas that have been neglected and grown in mostly sand and their growth varies from extremely slow, to stunted. You can forget about them fruiting. Poor siting, microclimates, marginal climates, bad soil, etc. can all affect growth and fruiting. Also when you look at a mat of banana plants it's very easy to miss a stalk of fruit. I remember I had some plantains that were fruiting out front and I didn't see the stalk of fruit until some wind was really blowing and reaveled it among the leaves. It's something easy to miss just driving by a yard and not seeing anything.

mikevan

I appreciate your links - did I say TC mutations are not used and are trashed? If that's what you read, then I worded it wrong - let me paraphrase - I basically said most are culled as undesireable during the screening process. You can get pretty durned targetted via induced mutations, but you still have a lot of culling and screening of undesireables. Heck, even in regular TC you have culling. Nanners seem to be more prone to this in many cases - AE AE for instance has been determined by a few here and the market in general to be unreliable in TC resulting in a lot more culling than usual which is why it's so expensive until adaquete methods are found to reduce the variability of the explants.

Nevertheless, the point I was making was that breeding programs do not depend on random mutation in the field - tho they can certainly use these in their progress, but rather depend on purposeful breeding processes not because mutation is rare - but because it often does not fit into their planned agenda in their breeding program. This, however, in no way degrades the value of natural mutation - this mutation is part of the natural adaptive process that has been occuring for eons, and in some cases produces truely lucky finds. That, tho, is why breeding programs continue to be the primary means of product development in the light of the occasional sports.

My current background centers primarily around colocasia sp and more recently xanthosoma sp, conservation which includes developing and maintaining a stateside private germplasm bank with a focus on the heirloom edible breeds which hopefully will be available via ARS in short order. These interests flow into musa as well as cacao - which is equally on the brink due to genetic weaknesses thanks to the lack of breeding research and heavy cloning - something that's currently in the process of being rectified, tho with great difficulty. My effort with the germplasm bank is to conserve and to revive interest in taro and taro related research that is up to now threatened in programs like CTAHR due to lack of funds and interest. Thusly, I'm fairly familiar with the breeding industry, tho I am far from a seasoned expert. Yet - it would seem I know enough to see the flaw in your argument that mutation == breeding and if mutation were that common, breeding would cease.

Nevertheless, this isn't about tooting horns tho this seems to be becoming a tooting match - gimme some cabbage and beer and I'll out-toot anyone here! It's about... well, what the heck is this about? If you care so much about CG - go buy one and grow it, for crying out loud. If you've never grown it, don't attempt to debunk it based on pure opinion - that's just not the way to go about it. Form a hypothesis, then prove it. So far you've given opinion without the demostration of direct hands-on evidence and using soley your 20+ years of experience with 20+ varieties of nanners as a fulcrum to leverage your argument, and you continue to debate in the face of people who actually grow these things. I'm very interested in the results of your own side-by-side comparisons - it is clearly something you're passionate about and that alone would be worth the $50 or so the high bid would end up being. I for one have seen the results of independant growers who do not profit from CG and am eager to try one myself, and I started out with nearly the same opinion as yourself (tho I never asserted that it was an orinoco). It will certainly not be the cornerstone of my collection - currently only 24 varieties - but it will be a curiosity worth investigating and an interesting addition to my Musa ohana.

Up to this point, you've not adaquately answered the true source of your assertions - that you've done the work and seen for yourself that this plant is indeed an orinoco. You tell us to look at the morphology, and people who have done so have replied to your challenge - to which you have ignored. If you haven't hands-on experience with the CG, and this is only an opinion, then let it be an opinion - but don't come on like it's fact because you simply do not know and that is insulting to those who really do know. And those that are growing it are in a position to know - please listen to them and give them a benefit of a doubt.

Be well,
Mike

mikevan

Jeff E - are you going to or have you put together a website yet? I'd love to seem more pics of your collection.

Cheers,
Mike

jearl

Ohhh yes... I will one of these days. I never seem to have enough time.
I have a basic one at jeffearl.com... but all it has is my email address and a link to my live backyard garden webcam.... Its pretty cool ( the webcam is a network cam so its on...even when my pc is off.)
Its password protected however.... I give out the password.... once and a while so others can see my garden live... but understanbly, I don't want people peering in 24/7.

Jeff