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Old 02-12-2018, 05:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

So I can not get a straight answer from most people on this. My general understanding is that all Lacatan sold in the United States is a cavendish variety from South America. This does not stop it being sold as the best banana in the Philippines even though the Philippine one is another variety of the AA type. Without mentioning names one retailer uses both spellings Lacatan and Lakatan and calls it the best tasting banana in the Philippines yet the two spellings are two different plants according to certain sources. I think even Agristarts calls it a Philippine banana and uses a stolen picture from Pro Musa which would be wrong if what they are selling does not make the fruit in their stolen photo.

How if the Lacatan/Lakatan sold in the states is all cavendish AAA type, how in the world with all this mixed information does one sort out the truth and get the true Lakatan which is truly the real deal from the Philippines? Is it just a dream that will never come true to get the real one? Everyone says they have the real one but nobody seems to verify it as the AA type.

To make things even more screwed up I had people tell me the one in the Philipines is an AAA Type. My mind is blown on this.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Hi Botanical_Bryce,

Good question. I too continue to be confused by so many local names that happen to also confusingly exist in other regions for different bananas. It gets worse when they belong to e.g. the same sub-group, like "Silk," with minute differences among them. And I can't rely solely on the linnaean system for clarity, as I've found.

The two bananas you talk about are indeed different ones.

Lacatan from Latin America
As you write, I understand this to be a AAA Cavendish cultivar as well.
It is also available in the Philippines, where it is known as "Bungulan."

Lakatan from the Philippines
Again, as you write, this is an AA cultivar and also considered to be by many Filipinos to be the "best tasting banana in the Philippines."
To confuse matters, the Lakatan can also be spelled as "Lacatan" in the Philippines, but obviously only referring to the AA Lakatan.

Why are there spelling versions of words with with C substituting for K in the Philippines? Well you'll have to consider the historical Spanish impact over there and the subsequent spelling changes that occurred over time. As you may know, under Spanish spelling conventions, the hard C sound is simply spelled with a C, similar to the C sound in the English word "car." However, under the Filipino system, there is in fact no C, only a K. So during Spanish times, the convention would have been for Filipinos to have spelled the Lakatan as "Lacatan," or for that matter, any word with a hard C sound with a C.

Gradually since independence from both Spain and the US, the increasing incidence of the use of the Filipino letter K has meant that a number of Cs were changed to Ks in words, but confusingly, not in all instances and in some cases, I believe both are accepted! So if you see a Filipino word spelled with a C, it harks back to the days when it was a Spanish colony.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

The one best site I found that explains the taxonomic side of things as I understand it is https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Lakatan_banana

The language explanation? Well, I was born in the Philippines and so this is part of my general understanding of how things have changed over time there.

Last edited by Paco : 02-12-2018 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Typos and for better clarity
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Be nice to get it clear with dealers. So far they get defensive with me and I want a real one.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

I'm sure you'll eventually find an enthusiast who'll share a real (AA) pup with you!
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Oh and before somebody rightly corrects me, there are certainly other hard C sounds in spanish that don't use a C. e.g qu+ vowel as in quemar, que, etc.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco View Post
I'm sure you'll eventually find an enthusiast who'll share a real (AA) pup with you!
I sure hope so
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:08 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

I 100% agree with Paco! And to further confuse things I will add more from what I’ve researched! I’ve been fairly obsessed with finding the real AA Lakatan! Here is what my research shows!

There is a true Lakatan from the Philippines and it is grown all over SE Asia! Getting the real deal is another story! It shocks me this banana is not grown here and is not popular! Everyone who has eaten it says it’s their favorite sweet banana! But it is nowhere here! Been trying and Still trying! There is 2 forms of Asia Lakatan! One grows to be around 10’-11’ other grows to be taller. Around 16’. One is called Berangan Kuning and the other Berangan Merah! In other countries they have different names and even to make it worse LOCAL names! They can also be called The Cici banana. Buluñgan, Balañgon, Lakatan, or Lacatan! And all these names are only in the Philippines! Lol.

Next there is the issue of AA vs AAA. Most everyone considers it an AA. The real one. Now professionals are saying it is an AAA type! This info comes from several sources including a friend I have who works with Musa at KU Leuven. As of now I am 99% convinced the real Lakatan is AAA!!

I have over 100 varieties. Do I have the real one? I don’t know! I have tried and spent quite a lot to acquire it! The closest I have came to getting it is my direct import from Cambodia. It was taken from a field owned by a small town fruit vender at a local market! He told my source to go here and dig here for a Cambodian Egg Banana! Well after flowering I contacted him again and he asked the owner of the field. The owner grows 4 types! Cambodian Egg banana, Musa Lakatan, and 2 local types named after local names! All grown there are commercial bananas for sale in the marketplace!

In my opinion and most I have talked to say it is an AAA type. I have had 3-4 contacts from Asia tell me it looks a lot like the real Lakatan. I’ve had 2 people whom I consider Musa experts tell me it could be the real Lakatan. I’ve had 1 Expert say it may be a type of GM. So what do I have! Look at my pictures on Flickr below. I put them in the “maybe Lakatan” folder. It flowered around 9’-10’ this was its first year in the ground. Normal size may be a foot taller or so. Pay close attention to these things!

1. The peduncle angles and how they change! I’ve never seen anything like this! Lots of pics from lots of angels!
2. Brown splotching on the pstem. Some would see this and think AA
3. The color of the male flowers! They are very pretty! Look similar to VC!
4. Very long and huge bunch! This was a first year bunch! To me means a commercial type!
5. The flowers and sap had a Very floral and strong smell! Unlike any other Musa!
6. Most important and shocked me!! The pulp was ORANGE! Taste was very sweet but not filled enough to say much more.

What do you think? After a couple more years research I will be sharing this clone. Hope I get ripe fruit this year! Bunch froze before they could fill.

Anyone know or seen what the real deal looks like? PM me!! Or say here!
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Last edited by Tytaylor77 : 02-13-2018 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Wow thanks for sharing your passion and the lengths you will go to get a cultivar, Ty! A bit of an inspiration for me.

I've just read several pages that refer to the orange flesh of the Filipino Lakatan variety, so that indicates a tick for point 6.

https://steemit.com/food/@shellany/g...ippine-bananas
Go Bananas with These 12 Varieties Worth Seeking Out in the Philippines

Even an academic abstract referred to Lakatan having orange flesh:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17209469

I'm sure there must be people on here who have solid lived experience of growing and eating Lakatan.
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

During the major period of "westernization" of edible bananas and other plants in the 1500's there were several sea-faring botanical traders involved -- many of them with advanced botanical skills (they propagated shipboard!) and from several language cultures. And so spellings of plants with the same phonetic names evolved under different spellings in different languages (Dutch, English, French, etc). In the case of Lac(k)atan -- consider that "k" is not present in some languages. Further, Anglo spellings of Asian words was still in it's infancy.

As for the genetics ...

-----

We see in the Bananas.org wiki scant information on Lacatan as a AAA and for Lakatan as a non-Jamaican version. This might be true for language differences or for long-term (300 yrs) residency.

-----

In years gone by, member pitangadiego compiled an alphabetized resource of information about bananas. In his J-L pages he provides an excellent summary of research on the name.

LACATAN
Pisang Masak Hijau (028) , Monte Cristo (028) , Giant Fig (028) , Hamakua (009), Bungulan (009)

DESCRIPTION:
Both the Jamaican [Lacatan] and cousin Philippine Lakatan are one of the Cavendish sub-group and produce a similar fruit in shape, texture and flavor. Only the height of the plants differ slightly; the Philippine has more red in the leaf margins and is a little taller. Both produce good sized bunches of fruit that has delicious flavor. (001) (010) One of the tallest of the Cavendish cultivars. It is a rapid growing and attractive plant which produces large bunches of excellent quality fruit. Needs protection from high winds especially when bearing a bunch.(007)A common producer of export fruit from Jamaica. High-quality, semi-hardy, requires propping of stems while fruiting. (009) Jamaican Lacatan was formerly the 'Chiquita' banana. It has great tasting fruit. The stem is fairly thin and needs to be propped up to support the fruit. Excellent quality fruit. (056) In general, the Cavendish group is resistant to Panama disease, but is susceptible to Sigatoka. The characteristic that distinguishes the best known clones is the height of the pseudostem. The tallest clone is 'Lacatan' followed by 'Robusta' and 'Giant Cavendish', 'Grand Nain', and 'Dwarf Cavendish'. (028) [F]ruit is round, seedless; has thick peel that has green when unripe, yellow-orange when ripe. [This may be a reference to Lakatan since it is about the Philippines.] (067) Simmonds declares [the Pisang Masak Hijau] cultivar is not the true 'Lacatan' of the Philippines. He suggested that 'Pisang masak hijau' may have been the primary source of all the members of the Cavendish group. (076)

TYPE: DESSERT
GENETICS: AA (025), AAA (025) (028)
HEIGHT: 5-9' (067), 8-10 (009),12' (011), 15' (056)
DISEASE: Panama Resistant(?)
HIGHLIGHTS: Former Chiquita banana, Tallest of Cavendish Group.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:25 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Here is 4 types of Lakatan Varieties growing in The Philippines (from The Catalogue of Introduced And Local Banana Cultivars In The Philippines)....



Lakatan Variety #1 Cavite








Lakatan Variety #2 Davao








Lakatan Variety #3 Mindoro I








Lakatan Variety #4 Mindoro II








Hopefully it helps!.....



My bro Ty has a big chance that The Mystery Nana from Cambodia he is growing, turns out to be a "TRUE" Lakatan Nana Variety!....Hopefully it does!....


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Old 02-13-2018, 02:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Makes me wonder if this new orange flesh Cavendishy thing I started growing might be a Lakatan...still too young to fully evaluate, and I never saw the source plant flower. Exciting.

And yes, all these various things we're talking about are AAA. The concept that "Phillipine Lakatan" were diploid was from before modern genetic tools, it's known they are all verified triploids now.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:28 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Wow! Went from wanting one plant to a whole new group to me.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:16 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Botanical_Bryce View Post
Wow! Went from wanting one plant to a whole new group to me.


Bryce,


Be careful what you wishing/wanting for!......LMAO!.....




Last edited by HMelendez : 02-15-2018 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:57 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

Back to square one.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:04 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Lakatan vs lacatan Can someone clear this up?

B.B. Just hop a jet to the Philippines and get one so you can be sure...
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Varieties I supposedly bought: Manzano, Cavendish, Blue Java, Sweetheart, and Gros Michel.
What it seems I actually have: Brazilian, Cavendish, Namwah, Dwarf Red, Gros Michel, Pisang Ceylon, Veinte Cohol and SH 3640, and American Goldfinger. FHIA 1, Paggi and FHIA 17... Always room for one more.
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