go.sail

Hello,
some years ago I got a musa sp. yangtse.
Who knows what for a variety this is, or a hybrid between ??x?? ?

Andreas

bikoro child

this variety is selled as Musa Sp Tibet related as rather hardy...

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Ivan

51st state

Musa Yangtze Valley = Musa Tibet = Musa Yangtse.

Collected by Martin Gibbons and Tobias Spanner in Yunnan Province, China. Looking pretty good for hardiness, still out there after the worst winter weather in 30 years. There are some photos floating about this site, it is also featured in Joachim Jack's excellent book 'Bananen in Mitteleuropa' (where's the english version, Joachim?)

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Basjoofriend

Hi,

sorry the Englisch version is delayed, but I start to continue the English version now, there are so many new updates, so that I have to work these in the new version in. Over the Christmas Days and New Year I was in Brazil and took many new pics with my new digicam, these photos are very suitable for my new version.

Sorry, my book was delayed by my accident in 2008 and building the business with Frutas Raras (translating the seedlists and describations of the plants of my friend Helton to German and English, you can buy seeds from Helton and me now!) and building the website of my yard and my bananas in Brazil. But I have to go in the next days to the hospital to let remove the titan plate out of my leg, it will take 5 to 7 days after the operation to stay in the hospital. Then I will work at my book more intensively.

Best wishes
Joachim

Jack Daw

Joachim, Sie haben auch in einem anderen Thread gefragt, wie man in Brazil ein neues TC Labor errichten kann. Wenn sie aber (wieder) zuruck in die Europa kommen, konnen Sie Alles, was notwendig ist, hier in Europa kaufen. Und vielleicht auch billiger als in Brazil. Personlich kenne ich keine solche Firma, die sich mit TC befasst, aber ich kenne manche Hobbysts in Europa, die auch profesionelle Labors haben und alles, was Sie dazu brauchen, mussen sie auch hier in EU kaufen.

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Thnx to Marcel, Ante, Dr. Chiranjit Parmar and Francesco for the plants I've received.



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griphuz

Andreas,
Maybe you can post a few more of the pictures you've sent me here? Maybe Markku has a idea of what species it might be?

Kind regards,
Remko.

go.sail

Hi Remko,
look at this thread
cold hardy musa sp.'yangste'. I give away 2 plants.
and in my gallery at bananas.org
There are some fotos
best regards
Andreas

Markku Hakkinen

Hi,

I have never been in Tibet but what I have heard from my colleagues China who have visited over there and what I have observed in Kumning Botanical Institute based on living plant it is just a variant of M.yunnanensis. It is commonly cultivated in north as animal fodder. It is quite cold tolerant as it can stand some minus degrees Celcius and snow which occurs in Kumning every winter.

Markku.

griphuz

I don't think I've ever seen a real itinerans jet (every one of them turns out to be yunnanensis) except for itinerans 'Indian Form' (really long rhizome!!). But from what I've seen of yunnanensis that it is a slender species so to speak, and not really wind-resistant. My Musa sp 'Tibet' is far from that, it's quite robust and has quite hard leaves, more wind resistant than e.g. basjoo.
Very distinguishable are the red/purple colourations of parts of the petiole, especially on suckers. I'll get some pictures on the net soon to clarify.
Could yunnanensis be that variable?
Kind regards,
Remko.

Markku Hakkinen

Hi,

Musa itinerans and Musa yunnanensis are highly polymorphic species and are very common in China.
In according to DNA analyses there are at least 20 ifferent variants of M.itinerans. DNA analyses with M.yunnanensis are under work.
What is coming M.yunnanensis charactreristics they are varying quite a lot depending on from which part of China they are origin to. These charactreristics of M.yunnanensis also includes the ones mentioned by Remko.
I have published a while ago descriptions of many M.yunnanensis varieties in China but I don,t have those papers with me here in Guangzhou now.

Scientifically the classification of so many varieties are coming very difficult. One has to jump into forms insteadt of variety.

Markku.

Caloosamusa

What are the differences (by definition) between variety and forms?

tony palmer

In botany, different variations within a species are denominated explicitly as subspecies (subsp.), variaties ( var.) or forms (forma)

here are definitions of the following taxonomic ranks in the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature: kingdom (regnum), subregnum, division or phylum (divisio, phylum), subdivisio or subphylum, class (classis), subclassis, order (ordo), subordo, family (familia), subfamilia, tribe (tribus), subtribus, genus (genus), subgenus, section (sectio), subsectio, series (series), subseries, species (species), subspecies, variety (varietas), subvarietas, form (forma), subforma.

In botanical nomenclature, a subvariety (subvarietas) is a taxonomic rank below that of variety (varietas) but above that of form (forma):

You did ask

Caloosamusa

I may have learned that in Biology and/or botany and or ecology, but since I have not taught those subjects, I don't remember since I have not regularly used the information. Thank you much for the explanation.

So to confirm, subspecies are varieties, and forms are a subset of varieties?

Thanks Tony!

tony palmer

So to confirm, subspecies are varieties, and forms are a subset of varieties?

Thanks Tony! [/quote]


subspecies are varieties, but forms are a subforma and not subsets of varieties

in botanical nomenclature, a form (forma) is a low-level taxonomic rank below that of variety; it is an infraspecific taxon.
some botanist dont like to use it.
I think thats right.

Markku Hakkinen

Hi,

In Musaceae taxonomy is commonly only used sectional status, species, subspecies and variety.
I studied over 800 publication on Musa for my article:

"Typification and check-list of Musa L. names (Musaceae) with nomenclatural notes"

at: http://www.mnhn.fr/museum/front/medi...95_a08n1a7.pdf

and I can't remember any forms of Musa was used.

Markku.

griphuz

I finally managed to get some pictures of my Musa 'Tibet' just before I brought them into the greenhouse for overwintering.
This species is (as said before) very different from basjoo indeed!
Some characteristics are:
- thick leafs, stronger and more wind-resistant then basjoo, similar to sikkimensis, possibly even harder;
- Suckering freely, quite productive the last few years;
- The distinctive 'ears' where the leafs meet the petiole (like M. thomsonii e.g.);
- Pink-ish coloration at the opening of the petiole;
- A little white 'wax' on the pseudostem, though a lot less then my Musa yunnanensis have!;




Presumably this Musa 'Tibet' is indeed the same as Musa sp. Yangste of Yangste Valley, possibly turning out to be a variety of Musa yunnanensis?
Kind regards,
Remko.

51st state

Hi Remko

This is NOT the same as Musa Yangtse (see pic).

Maybe we can swap plants in the spring?

regards

Kev

Attached Images

01A9EC3F.JPG (713.2 KB, 20 views)

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Markku Hakkinen

This is the yunnanensis variety collected by Tobias Spanner from North Yunnan on the way to Yangtse river valley. This information is based on my personnel communication with Toby. It has nothing to do with Tibet. I have observed the same variety in many areas in N.Yunnan at high elevation in where it is commonly cultivated as animal fodder. It is an intermediate form of var. yunnanensis and var. yongpingensis.
Markku.

griphuz

Hi Kev,
Ok, then that matter is closed I guess, haha! I always hear people say Yangste and Tibet is the same plant, but apparently not.
I would definately like to swap plants in spring, good idea!
Where did you get yours, and how do you get it through winter?

Kind regards,
Remko.

tony palmer

When jean-luc in Belgium received M.yangtse from Tobias Spanner, he then re-named it M.tibet and tissue cultured it.

Toby Spanner was with Martin Gibbons of the Palm centre in London when they discovered M.yangtse in the Yangtse river valley.
Martin Gibbons kept the name M.yangtse.

So you can see were the confusion over the names has come from!

Kev, when your M.yangtse matures it will look like Remko's M.tibet.
I’ve had them both and they are the same plant.
I planted them out last summer because they had become to big to store in the greenhouse for the winter, sadly I lost them both.. P-stem and corm, it was a very bad winter though and I would like to try M.yangtse again one day but next time give it some protection to get it through winter.

Thanks,
Tony