Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Several of you have purchased water-soluble Banana Fuel for fruiting bananas from one of the growing number of suppliers. Here I'm referring to the blueish crystals with one of these formulas: 15-5-30, 15-10-30 Urea Free, and 20-5-30.

The amount to use to obtain good results depends on your growing environment. We can narrow this down a lot if we only consider feeding during the "active growing season" in full sun (or significant artificial light). Here are my recommendations, based largely on the critical amount of potassium needed for vigorous fruit production and the root volume in each situation:

BANANA FUEL DOSAGES DURING ACTIVE GROWTH SEASONS:
Very Young Plants, TC's: 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water every watering.
Young Plant in 2 gallon pot: 2 tablespoons per month.
Plant (not juvenile) in 10 to 20 gallon pot: 1/4 cup per month.
Plant in ground with significant root space: 3/4 cup per month.
Hydroponics @ 150 ppm K: 1 Tbs per 6.5 gallons of water.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

When your stating 1/4 to 3/4 cup a month examples, how much would go in each gallon of water in order to not make it too concentrated? I usually fertilize once a week in good weather.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Solubility is not a problem, any of these dosages will easily dissolve in a gallon of water or less. If you are watering a plant in a pot, then ideally use enough water to dampen the soil but not drain out bottom of the pot. Be sure to dissolve in water before applying because otherwise you will loose a significant amount of the nitrogen to the atmosphere.

For a plant in the ground, I use a 5-gallon bucket so I can cover the entire root area.

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That's the bonus plan :^) My Dwarf orinoco is growing like weed. All the rest are up out of the ground.. :^)

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Do you have a recommendation for the GroMore, or just follow the instructions on the bag, as I have been doing?

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

I've put an entire packet (12 oz?) of miracle grow on an established banana corm with some really good results.

Those are recommendations for these formulas, regardless of the supplier:
15-5-30, 15-10-30 Urea Free, and 20-5-30.

All of the above are 30% potash. I believe you have 28-8-18? In that case I recommend following the instructions I attached to the bag.

Was it a fruiting banana variety, and what was the N-P-K of the Miracle Grow?

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

mine is 8 onces do they make different sizes..?

For the same price of 5Lbs of miricle grow; I can get 25 lbs from richard... that's a no brainer :^)

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Thanks Richard, will do. Can't wait until I can get these bad boys into the ground!

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

I have been mixing the Banana Fuel with the Grow More Soil Builder. So far so good, I really like using products that contain Humic Acid.

I have been mixing one heaping table spoon of banana fuel and a cap full of soil builder to one gallon of water once every 10 days or so right now. In summer I up it to once a week. Is this mix ok? Should I be mixing the two like this?

Forgot to say, I only mix the Humic Acid product at a min of once every 3 months. Thats why it last so long, or maybe I am using it wrong?

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

What's the Soil Builder do?

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

The Soil Builder product adds complex carbon acids to the soil, and also contains a faint dose of N-P-K. It is buffered, and hence mixing a small dose of it with another buffered fertilizer such as Banana Fuel should not cause any precipitates. Worm Farmer, a cap-full of Soil Builder every few months for your potted plant(s) seems appropriate. A little bit does go a very long way.

For people with a lot of potted plants or a larger property, the quarts and gallons of 12% Humic Acid concentrate are more cost effective. Here are the application guidelines:

For 2-3 times per year maintenance applications on garden or crop soils, set sprayer to 1/4 teaspoon per gallon and wet soil to approximately 1/4 inch depth. For carbon-deficient soils, apply a maximum of 1/2 Tablespoon per 100 square feet or 3 quarts per acre as a soil drench diluted at least 1:50 with water and usually 1:128 to acheive the desired coverage of approximately 1/4 inch saturation depth. For example, a hand-pump sprayer with 1/2 gallon of water and 1/2 Tablespoon of Grow More 12% Humic Acid is sufficient for a 10' by 10' (100 square foot) area of carbon-deficient soil. Afterwards, a twice- or thrice-yearly maintenance application applied for 2 to 3 years will correct native deficiencies in most soils.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Thanks Richard I think I'll have to do that in a couple weeks when I can get back around. Appreciate the info. I'll probably get it in next week :^)

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Think of banana growing as like being graded on a "curve" in school.
That kind of shape in your mind as a graph. It starts out small, then has a high point in the middle and then gradually tapers off again. Like a capitol letter "D" lying on it's side, kind of.
That's what you do with the watering and the fertilizer both with bananas in cooler climates.
As the weather warms, ramp up your watering and fertilizer amounts. Start gradually increasing their fertilizer from winter lows of 100 ppm every other time to 200 ppm, then 300 ppm. You can go up to 400 ppm in mid summer, provided you're also keeping them well hydrated. Then as the days shorten and weather cools, do the same only in reverse. Start tapering off the water and the fertilizer, back down to 200 ppm by early fall (right before the leaves fall) and as low as 100 ppm every other watering in winter.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

I've been cutting off my fertilizing in August of my Basjoo and my palms as they stay outside and I want to limit tender new growth with the upcoming cooler weather. Should I continue longer before stopping?

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Sandy, I think that is great advice. For my customers growing outdoors, I recommend feeding only during the growing season.

One confusion I see for novices is how we use the term "ppm" (parts per million). Traditionally in professional circles we are referring to the ppm of Nitrogen, and in some cases the ppm of another mineral. However, I've discovered that hydroponic stores are now selling and promoting "ppm meters" which measure total dissolved solids -- not individual minerals etc. In addition there are hydroponic fertilizer products with ppm dosages on the label for total ppm.

For example:
10-10-10 water-soluble mineral fertilizer at 1200 total ppm = 120 ppm Nitrogen.
15-10-30 water-soluble mineral fertilizer at 100 ppm Nitrogen = 666 total ppm.

The situation is more complicated when a fertilizer product contains other soluble material such as kelp extract. One product I've seen offered recommends dosages of 4000 (total) ppm. This does not mean 4000 ppm Nitrogen! When measured with professional equipment, we find it is delivering 60 ppm N.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

I haven't seen what I really want to know from this thread yet: what is a safe (or better yet, optimal) concentration of Banana Fuel to apply? Aside from the small plants (1/4 tsp / gallon at every watering), Richard's recommendations don't give mixing (concentration) guidelines. I might be able to dissolve 3/4 cup into 1 gallon of water, but I'm guessing that might be bad -- possibly a toxic concentration that damages the roots. Sandy's suggestions in ppm make more sense to me, being a biologist, but they still aren't simple mixing instructions.

Should I just use the standard Miracle Grow instructions (1 tablespoon per gallon) and apply this concentration until I hit the recommended amount of Banana Fuel per month? For example, then, I might apply 1 gallon of this mix every other week to a small plant in a 2 gallon pot.

What is the best approach?

Thanks,
Mark

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

That's because for larger plants, it is the amount of fertilizer that matters -- not the amount of water. Use enough water to deliver the stated amount to the roots.

If you have a fertigation system, then use 5 pounds of 20-5-30 per fruiting banana plant per year over the course of the growing season in your year.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Richard,

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand the logic that what is important is the amount of nutrients delivered, but by and large, any chemical (nutrient) delivered at high enough concentrations becomes toxic. I want to avoid any possible toxic effects.

I don't have a fancy fertigation system -- it's just me and a watering can applying a soil drench. I just want to know what concentration of Banana Fuel in my little old watering can would be best -- i.e., not too strong. From what I can tell, overfertilizing is generally more risky than underfertilizing.

For example, how does this sound for a 4' tall (p-stem) plant in the ground?
Apply soil drench weekly, 3 gallons of 1 tbsp/gal Banana Fuel. That would deliver 12 tablespoons per month, which equals 3/4 cup -- the amount you suggest.

Thanks,
Mark

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Toxicity comes with quantity, not with concentration. A non-juvenile plant easily has the capacity to process 1 lb of 20-5-30 in a single dosage -- provided you are delivering it to majority of the root system and not to a single point.

I think you are working way too hard. It will take the plant about 3 weeks to entirely process any application of 20-5-30. Once per month is plenty frequent enough for hand application of plants in the ground.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Thanks Richard. I'll go with once monthly applications for my in-ground plants.

It is not strictly true, however, that toxicity in living organisms comes from quantity, not concentration. As an example using humans, salt, sodium chloride, is an essential nutrient for us. However, if you were eat the amount of salt that you'd need over a month in only one day, you'd be very ill -- because of the high concentration of salt in your tissues. It's both quantity and concentration that matter.

Who wants a salty french fry?

Cheers,
Mark

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Mark, I agree with your point that each organism has an upper capacity for inputs. In my case, if I ate in one day the amount of salt the average American consumes in a day, I'd be sick. :)

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i have been using pro-sol 10-16-38 with micros. i apply it at 1/4-strength each time i water.

what do you all think?

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Bananas will only utilize about 1.5 times as much Potash as Nitrogen, and about 1/16 as much Phosphate as Nitrogen. On a yearly basis, they can utilize about 1 net pound of Nitrogen from available sources.

You are feeding them 1.5 times as much Phosphate (P) as Nitrogen, and about 4 times as much Potash (K) as Nitrogen. So, you are wasting P and K. On the other hand, at the given dosage you are probably not exceeding maximums. If you do so, excessive Potash will limit the uptake of other nutrients, particularly Sodium, Iron, and Manganese.

For more information on the role of nutrients, see

Guide to Micronutrients

For a photo guide to nutrition deficiencies, see

http://www.bananas.org/f356/deficien...html#post89519

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Richard, Do you think there is anyway we could get Banana Fuel in a Time released fertilizer spike format? I have been using these Fruit and Nut tree spikes on my other plants and seem to have good luck. They easy to use, if I could get Banana Fuel spikes it would make my life super easy.

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What does humic acid add to the plants?

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Not from Grow More. Neither the owner or I think that fertilizer spikes are an efficient or cost-effective means of feeding plants.

Humic Acid is a soil conditioner and not a plant food. It provides a means for plants to sense nutrients in the soil and a substrate for many biological processes. It is a waste to apply humic acid without also having or applying a thick layer of mulch on the soil surface.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

much thanks richard!!
last yr i used banana fuel.. added to my own mix of rabbit manure tea..and
added kelp,humic,fulvic acids..
plants did great!!! :woohoonaner:
i am very happy with the banana fuel.. thinking of trying bat guano
tea with rabbit manure tea as well..
place i had added coco coir..wow..there are alot of worms..some real
nice nitecrawlers!!!(fishin)..
? anyone else use any kind of bat/seabird guano in there fertilizing
plans on theres nanners?
thanks

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

I have used Bat Guano in the past, I do not use it anymore. I found that both times I got some it was very dry and smelled very bad. The bad smell (like ammonia) burned my nose, so I used very little when I mixed it into my potting soil mix. I have also hear the Bat Guno can burn plats fairly easy.

Seabird Guano I have used so far, Is nice and black in color with no foul smells. I would reccomend Seabird, and I personally would mix it with your Rabbit Poo Tea.

If you have worms in the soil now, you should be able to spread dry Rabbit manure other you plant bed's to help feed the worms and keep the soil active.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

thanks wormfarmer!
most recent bat guano i bought on ebay..small retailer..and
supposedly "fresh" whatever that may mean..
i know what u mean by foul smell..this though is actually
very earthy smelling..like fresh wormcastings..so..???
anyways.. ya..im very pleased with worm population in garden
beds.. :08:
i have about 1/2 truck load of rabbit poo still.. im filling up
a newly created flower bed..so i will put in poo..peat,compost..
by june when i put in my nanners,EE,cannas.. it should be
really good soil ...
?do you make aerated worm casting tea with your worm castings
wormfarmer?? i do..and all my plants seem to respond really well to it..
ive been putting it on my tomato seedlings..and they sing praises after
i put it on them.. :) LOL

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I do make Casting Tea from time to time. I really do like using it, and I mix it with the Banana Fuel. This year I do plan on making ALOT more tea, but it will probably be mid summer before I really have a lot of castings to use. After I make the tea I spread the soggy castings around my plants.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

worm farmer..are u using your big wood bin? or how do u keep compost
worms? i have 4 - 37 gal rubbermaid bins..works good for me..
i save back castings during winter..and use in pot mix..and tea..
i do same with left over from tea.. just add to my compost or just on
garden soil..

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Where can I get some of this Banana Fuel fertilizer? I might want to use it this season.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Richard

Plants That Produce at Leucadia Farmers Market

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Is it possible to order?

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Send a PM. I 'm not sure if he ships anymore

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SUV = new Vector<ShippingUnit>() ;

Until I'm done updating my online shopping cart, an email or PM works just great.

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Okay, I'll let you know when.

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

Thanks for all the fertilizer info Richard!
I ordered a 5lb bag of your fertilizer from plantsthatproduce.com, it just shipped, super excited to try it out. I am currently in the process of moving my small basjoos (10 inch pstems) that I have had for a couple of weeks, from containers (for sun acclimation) to the ground. How soon after putting them in the ground should I start fertilizing? I haven't used any fertilizer yet, save for some bone meal. (which I have read is pointless to use this early, is that true BTW?) Anything else I should consider?
Thanks again!

Re: Water Soluble Banana Fuel Dosages
 

My plants seem to be responding well to the fertilizer. One of my unknown plants is putting out two pups and nice, green leaves and the others are growing nicely. My Ice Cream plant has an emerging leaf that's tangled, though. Could that be from the fertilizer?

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Not in my experience.

I have run out of inventory of the 20-5-30 Fertilizer for Fruiting Bananas, aka "Banana Fuel". It will be awhile before I restock, since the factory only accepts pallet-size orders.

Based on input from a number of growers in the subtropics (continental U.S. excepting south Florida), I am considering updating the formula to 20-10-30. Depending on your location in the U.S., you might be able to find this formula in stock at an agricultural supply store (not at garden centers).

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Any time you like, provided you follow the dosage directions sent with the package.

The 28-8-18 is a complete fertilizer. I don't recommend adding other nutrients with it. Maintenance dosages of hormones or soil conditioners would be ok.

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Yes and no. If you didn't fertilize as much or as heavily, you wouldn't get that symptom, but you also wouldn't get as much growth. On the other hand, if you plants weren't already lacking some micronutrient, you wouldn't have this problem when you fertilize. Lot's of us have experienced this problem with various fertilizers including banana fuel. (See the We Be Bananas website for photos of over fertilizing symptoms.)

My understanding is this:
Plants need "macronutrients" (N, P, and K) and "micronutrients" (e.g., Cu, Ca, B) to build new tissues. In bananas at least, growth seems to be dictated most by the macronutrients, water, and temperature. If you pour on the water and NPK, they grow faster (if it is warm). But for proper tissue formation, the micronutrients need to be incorporated into the tissues, too. The problem is that some of them (e.g., Ca and B) are transported into the growing tissues at much slower rates than N, P, and K. If they can't be incorporated fast enough, you can end up with tangled, deformed, and chlorotic leaves. If you know which micronutrient you are missing, you can add it, either to the soil or via foliar feeding, and the symptoms will resolve by the next leaf or two. Nick pointed out that even when your soil appears to have adequate levels of some micronutrient (I think it was Ca in his case), soil conditions (temperature, wetness, pH) can make it difficult for the plant to take up that element.

In the lack of information about which micronutrient is causing your problem, a broad spectrum micronutrient foliar spray may solve it. Don't haphazardly throw on individual micronutrients because that can exacerbate the problem. I learned that lesson.

Regarding Banana Fuel (since that is what this thread is about), I think that if you had ideal soil pH and consistently used that fertilizer, you probably wouldn't have this problem. But your soil has a "history" prior to using it and so may have specific micronutrient or pH problems that keep the micronutrients in that product from being incorporated into the banana plant tissues fast enough to keep up with the growth forced by the addition of NPK.

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I just fertilized again today. Each of my plants except the Mysore got a half cup, and Mysore got 1/3 of a cup. I looked at the ingredients of Banana Fuel and noticed that it does have trace amounts of these micronutrients. However, I don't know what my soil pH is. Maybe I should save up for a pH meter to test it. The leaf finally emerged, and it was shorter than the previous leaves and part of it was chlorotic while another part was very thin and tore off. Other than that, the leaf was normal. I'm going to see what happens with the next leaf and then determine whether I need to do anything else.

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I think your using way to much fert.at one time. I could be wrong.

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That seems about right, provided (a) you diluted it in enough water to drench the roots and (b) they have significant root space; i.e., 1/2 to 1 cubic yard of root volume each. The picture I have seen of your Mysore in the lawn does NOT have anywhere near that, maybe 1-4 cubic feet.

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Do you think it would harm the plant?

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I think you would have seen some evidence of "burn" along leaf edges by now. Using the Mysore as an example, par back the dosage to 1/4 cup per month until the base diameter is 6" and you've removed the lawn back at least a two-foot radius from the plant.

The lawn near the plant must currently be growing like crazy!

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Richard,
I received my banana fuel yesterday. I have some questions about the application rates/plant sizes. For us newbies, can you clarify some physical characteristics to look for to judge what size plant is being referred to in the rate table? For example, in the posts above where you refer to root space and base diameter, this kind of information is very helpful for me. How big would be a "Small or potted plant" be? I think my new baby plants fall into this category (12-14 inches tall overall), or would they still be considered TC plantlets? I also have 3 ice creams that are about 3ft tall overall (2-3 inch diameter base). Would they still be considered Small Plants? Or something in between? Should I stick with the small plant dosage until the base diameter is 6 inches?
Thanks!

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Sure :08:

(Maximum) BANANA FUEL DOSAGES DURING ACTIVE GROWTH SEASONS:

• Very Young Plants, TC's. These have 1 inch or less diameter base, with little or no corm (bulb) development. Dosage: 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water every watering.
• Young Plant in 2 gallon pot. This has a diameter of about 1.5 inches or more. It might have been a TC that has been successfully grown for a couple of months, or a "pup" with at least a tennis-ball size corm that has been cut off a mother plant. The pstem height (not counting leaves) will be 12 to 18 inches or more. Dosage : 2 tablespoons per month, diluted in enough water to reach the roots.
• Plant (not juvenile) in 10 to 20 gallon pot, or in the ground with a similar amount of root space. This plant has at least a 3 or 4-inch diameter base. Dosage: 1/4 cup per month, diluted in enough water to reach the roots.
• Plant in ground with significant root space; i.e., 1/2 to 1 cubic yard of root volume. Maximum dosage: 3/4 cup per month, diluted in enough water to reach the roots.
• Hydroponics. Dosage (regardless of plant size): 1 Tbs per 6.5 gallons of water.