Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I got some more seeds of this in from RPS (rarepalmseeds.com) a couple of weeks ago. Lots of them looked no good, but he sent me 173 seeds when I ordered 100, so I can't complain. Anyway, I separated 100 and did the float test in some warm water for 16 hours. 41 of them floated, and 59 sunk to the bottom. I sowed them all anyway, but separated the floaters from the sinkers. They were sowed in Promix, in a flat with a humidity dome, at a depth of about 1/2 inch. I placed them in the greenhouse, which goes up to about 85F during the day right now, and into the low 70s at night. The humidity dome will trap some heat, so under it is probably around 90F+ during the heat of the day. If it gets too hot, I will use a humidity dome with holes in the top.

Sure would be nice just to get one or two of these babies to sprout! It is a beautiful banana, the only native banana of Madagascar. The other 73 seeds went back into the bag. Ensete seeds can stay dormant for so long, I figured if the ones I just sowed show no promise, I'll still have a few left to play around with. If the ones I have sowed in flats right now don't pop within a couple of months, I'm going to try some other things with them.

Anybody else order any of this new batch from RPS? Has anybody even ever sprouted one of them yet??

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Bigdog, I am just curious, isn't ensete perrierri almost identical to Ensete Glaucum? Just a heck of alot harder to sprout?

Anyway, your setup for sprouting them seems ideal. :sumbrero:

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I shortly have 50 seeds of ensete perrieri in my germination box.


Lets see what they do, i have them on fluctuating temperatures for
the day and night. Just as I do with the sikkimensis.
Maybe this is wrong as my ensete ventricosums sprouted well at a steady
30 celsius temperature.

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Erlend, according to the blurb on RPS's website, it is very similar to E. glaucum. I don't know what the differences are, besides E. perrieri having yellow midribs. Guess I'll have to grow it to find out!

Dutchman, I've germinated Ensete ventricosum and E. glaucum with fluctuating temps. Not by design, but they were just set in the greenhouse like I did with these new seeds. You don't have to have fluctuating temps for Ensete sp., but it doesn't hinder them from sprouting.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Dutchman, I've germinated Ensete ventricosum and E. glaucum with fluctuating temps. Not by design, but they were just set in the greenhouse like I did with these new seeds. You don't have to have fluctuating temps for Ensete sp., but it doesn't hinder them from sprouting.


Bigdog, I can not imagine that with so many seeds none would germinate.
What would be so special than about this specie?

You have 100 and I 50 right now. If none germinates I fly to madagaskar
and dig 2 out.

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Ron,

Here's the picture from rarepalmseeds.com :



Looks very similar to Ensete glaucum in this picture, except for the yellow midribs. Now, look at the picture from The Musaceae website:



That picture is quite unlike Ensete glaucum, IMHO. It looks sort of like an intermediate species between E. glaucum and E. ventricosum. Now compare with Ensete glaucum:



As to what makes it so special, well...nothing really except that nobody has it! That and I am a species collector, and don't have it yet!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Hi bigdog, do you think there should be a bit of red glow on the leaves
of perrieri to make the difference between this and glauca?

Well, anyway, if some of my 50 seeds succeed I will let you know for sure.

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

They are two distinct species. I suppose you could say they are similar in being 2 large green Ensete species with green infloresences. But they are still very morphologically distinct. In addition they come from very different places and it appears E. perrierii has wider base (more like E. ventricosum, I have not seen E. glaucum over about 2ft wide).

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Ensete_Perrieri
:)

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

They seemed really stubborn the first time I tried 30, and not one sprouted. This time I ordered 200 seeds(cheap, 20 bucks) and got over 300 with some grey colored ones like bigdog did. I sowed almost all of them and they all looked viable by breaking a few open. If I don't get a single one this time I'll write perrieri off for good, or until TC.
It maybe a really good Ensete for southern California since most native madagascan palms do great in it's mediteranian climate.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Not sure about this as you must know that it is a hughe isle with very
different climates on different places.
There are places with much rain and also very dry places. Only along
the coasts it is steady warm. In the inland and high places the temperature
fluctuates enormous.
Those palms may grow on total other spots then the banana.
Also the soil is not the same at the whole isle.

Just doing research for this.

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Many types of palms are a good indicator of climate, and what other plants from a particular area will do well in a specific climate. Jubaea chilensis does great through out the west coast of the US (easily the most cold hardy feather palm for the west US), but on the east it rarely survives the hot summer nights. This climate matching is mirrored in the bamboo species Chusquea culeo which is from the same area of high elevation South America as Jubaea chilensis and will also not survive in the east US.
In general the plants from Madagasgar would probally do just fine in both Florida and So Cal(since the palms do), but I am excited about the So Cal match because there are so many micro climates in southern California that there is likely to be a perfect match for climate found. I think most of Madagasgar has a pronounced dry season. Coastal hills like are found around Santa Barbara, and Ventura, also have a very pronounced dry period, and the area could be a perfect match.
I would be cool if eventually some of the mainland African Ensete species were introduced into cultivation for climates like Texas, Arizona, southern New Mexico, and southern California, since some of the climates are very similar with monsoonal summer rains, and a dry die back period which is common for most of the hot climate African Ensete species.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

You are so right, ofcourse the palms are indicators but not more than that.
I just meant to say that I was not sure that it would grow generally in
all CA without much problems.
I know there grow 7 species of Baobab on madagasker each in his own
microclimate! I could find only one spot on the big isle where the perrieri
grows(maybe I am wrong).
Offcourse if you take Florida and south-CA the chances should be good
but it is just because we know so little about the specie and because
it is so rare.
Actually its strange we try to germinate this one and know so little
about it, especially when no one succeeds to germinate it.
Maybe more knowledge about the habitat is usefull.

Well, I hope we will see soon a spot on the wiki where it grows.(jarred :)))

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Hey Ron, help me get the word out lol!
Anyone and everyone that joins here as a member can add their info and knowledge to the page!
http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Ensete_Perrieri

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

That is really true, have not thought about that.

Ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Yeah, I'd like to hear some more about this species if you have any more on where it grows, elevation, climate. It might provide some clues. Maybe even what type of palms grow near?(Just kidding)

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

First I wrote the park where they are supposed to grow in english, then
I did it in my best frenche. No response at all.
Than I mailed the organization of national parks on madagascar in French.
Here the E-mail adres contact@angap.mg. They did not response too.
I asked both if they could give me specific information on the places where
it grows, because then I would know more about the climate.

From what I found out myselve they grow in the more dry regions with
temperature fluctuations not in the rainy north part of the Isle.
But to add info to the wiki you have to be 100% sure.

I will give it a try again mailing the ANGAP organization but maybe they
don't want to share information and keep the banana for themselves.

If they respond I will ask them if near by the banana a palm is growing:)

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

http://www.parcs-madagascar.com/bemaraha/bemaraha.htm

Here the info from parc national bemaraha.

You can find detailed info in the climate.

Especially watch the lime-environment where it is growing in.
I suppose soil with a high PH.

They do not say anything about palms, just kidding tropicalvr.

Jarred , I did the job so far(WIKI)

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I'm thinking that this could be an Ensete species where fluctuating temperatures may be necessary to get germination, judging by some of the climate info from Ron. Seeing as how Madagascar has been separated from the rest of the other land masses for a very long time, perhaps Ensete perrieri seeds evolved to only respond to fluctuating temps. It is a strange little corner of the world, and very diverse.

The pH is interesting also. When I think of a tropical environment like Madagascar, I usually think of weathered, acidic soils. Hmmm...if I ever do get one to sprout, I'll need to do some liming for it's planting hole. My pH is 5.1!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

The pH is interesting also. When I think of a tropical environment like Madagascar, I usually think of weathered, acidic soils. Hmmm...if I ever do get one to sprout, I'll need to do some liming for it's planting hole. My pH is 5.1![/quote]

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Bigdog, I have read the description of 'ensete sp kluay pa/thailand on the
site of rare palmseeds and it looks likes this one grows in similar
condiitions as perrieri. They speak about limestone cliffs were it grows on.

I think they must be related close to each other.

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

They don't look a whole lot like each other, but they are still both Ensetes. I can assure you of this: They are both very difficult to germinate. I see RPS has fresh seeds now too. I'm almost tempted, but I just bought several hundred other seeds from them. Ahhh...

The habit of growing on limestone cliffs is interesting. Sounds like the seeds somehow get deposited there, and probably sit there for quite some time. The monsoons might trigger them to germinate. There is a cactus, Ferocactus I think, that requires gibberellin in order to germinate. They grow on rocky outcroppings, and the seeds must land in a crack on top of some leaf litter. When the rains come, fungus will grow on the litter, and then the cactus seeds will germinate.

There is also the thought that repeated cycles of wet, then hot and dry, could weaken the seed coat enough to allow water to penetrate it. Works for some palm seeds.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Yep, they look different, but it is amazing they grow in such invironment.
I don't know if a high PH also is good for ventricosum or only for those
two.
Maybe they grow in any neutral soil well.

When your perrieri seeds sprout, you can test the different soils. If mines
sprout I will test this too.


Ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Ron, I can tell you that my bananas had smaller fruit, and smaller bunch sizes last year here in Knoxville. I think it had something to do with my high-acid soil. The previous year in Nashville, my pH was quite a bit higher than it is here, and fruit and bunch sizes were quite larger. Nashville, although only about 2 1/2 to 3 hours from here, has completely different soils than E. TN. They are alkaline. I also had some leaf deformities last year here, which I now attribute to my poor soil. I have heavily amended it with lime and organic matter this year, so I am hoping for better results!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

the bad news is my seeds still have not germinated yet but the good news is I finally found and placed a description of the banana in the WIKI.

http://www.bananas.org/wiki/Ensete_Perrieri

ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Nothing here either, after over 3 1/2 months. Patience is definitely needed with this species!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I think i will give these guys a try. It's sounds like a big challenge. :nanaruns:

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I hope you will succeed mark, I have not much confidence in my
seeds anymore because I tried it in three different ways.
1. In normal sterile soil
2. In soil with additional lime
3. In a bottom of water only.

They are still in but i see nothing happen

Ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I took out the 70 + seeds that I didn't sow out of the bag today. There are two distinct colors: Brown and black (or really dark brown). I took a razor and made a chip on a lateral side of the seed coat, flaking away integument until I got to endosperm. The lighter-colored brown seeds had an off-white, almost cream-colored endosperm. The dark brown, almost black seeds had very white endosperm. Curious, I decided to split a few of the light-colored ones open to examine the embryo. The first three seeds that I split either had no embryo, or I just couldn't find it. The next three I split did have an embryo, but it was quite obviously not viable anymore. They were brownish-colored and dessicated very badly. The seeds split quite easily also with a pair of pliers. This is one reason why germination seems impossible with these seeds. The embryo is dead! I scarified ten of the dark-brown seeds, and all had chalk-white endosperm, so I am soaking them now. We'll see what happens!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

The embryo is dead

That must be it Frank else at least one of all those seeds should have sprouted especially because we tried it in several different ways but nothing
happens.

Ron

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Ron, I didn't split any of the darker-colored seeds open to check the contents, because the endosperm looked bright white. I wouldn't give up hope on them yet anyway.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Nice thread you all. I'm trying to learn more about this one myself.:weightliftingnaner:

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

All hello! The Interesting theme. I have 4 seed Ensete perrieri from Russian the Internet-shop and I have already planted them. Certainly I have small percent of their germination, but all I hope for it. I shall observe of a theme. All the best!:scroll:

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Raules,

Good luck! I just ordered some seeds from RPS last night and they didn't have that one available anymore. Keep us posted, as 4 seeds isn't to many to work w/.:waving:

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I put 5 E. perrieri in Jiffy plugs, another 5 in Jiffy-Mix and 6 onto embryo rescue medium. Still waiting on the original 6 placed into peat from back in June. Have them on a heat mat in a humidome, flucutating between 69 and 80 degrees. Would like to increase the fluctuation range to 20 degrees, but my heat meat won't get the soil temps up high enough despite the claims of a 20 degree rise over ambient room temps.
I will just keep them there and moisten every few days until they pop, I don't care if it takes another year!
Actually, I am hopeful that one of the Embryo Rescues starts doing something, but they have only been onthe medium for about a week so far.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Update, nothing has germinated as of yet, but hope springs eternal. I have put more onto embryo rescue medium and just got some new medium that I plan to try. I need one more ingredient that I will need to add to it. This is a tough one to germinate, but I am determined to get this and ingens to sprout if it's the last thing I do. I have them all over the lab, in flats inside and out, fluctuating temps, dark, light, you name it.
I am also going to put some just into good old black dirt after a soaking in ethrel and kinetin to see what happens. The kinetin is on its way, just need to find ethrel. A product called Florel has ethrel as the active ingredient, but only 3.9% concentration, the rest is inert. Wondering if this will work, or would I need 100% Ethephon (it's chemical name is Ethephon, [(2-chloroethyl) phosphonic acid])
Any input from you chemists?

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Depending on what it does will depend on the concentration you use.

These people seem to sell it http://www.alfa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB...67205G+ALF+ENG

I'm a chemist, but I have no idea as to what it does or what it's used for.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Thanks! I tried the link but got an error message something to the effect of a 500 Internal Server Error,

"Internal Server Error

Cannot read script output pipe. "



Please check the link and re-post or PM it to me. Thanks again!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Alfa Aesar: laboratory chemical suppliers, distributors

If you type in the chemical name it will find it, I think it's about $42 for a gram! Mighty expensive stuff.

What is supposed to do? I read a little about it being used to stimulate the production of latex.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Got it, thanks James!

One gram will go a long way as only a few milligrams are used in the formula. It has been researched for its combinative/synergistic effect with kinetin in certain seed germination experiments. I plan to emulate these experiments seeking to ascertain its effectiveness on Musa and Ensete seeds. Among other things, it has shown an ability to increase polyribosome counts, stimulate production of ethylene and tends to affect absisic acid release. These factors contribute to seed germination. The two also work with gibberellins to release photodormancy.

Since banana seeds are difficult to germinate, I am hoping that this research may help to unlock the germination pathways.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Another chemist here:
Etephon is taken up by the plant, and converted into ethylene by it, so I think using very high concentrations might be dangerous. I have no idea though it you can dillute it by dissolving it.
Kind regards,
Remko.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I believe that the dosage is like 5mg/L and it will be used as a seed soak initially, combined with kinetin.

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I thought I would share a photo of one of my Ensete perrieri plants. I took this photo this afternoon.

I ordered 100 seeds from RPS and received them in June of 2007. I sowed them in a plastic container with local soil and about 30 plants germinated after about 3 months. They were transplanted into one gallon bags and I put them out in my shadehouse. This past May (2008) when the rainy season started, I planted a bunch of them in the ground. Some were planted in full sun on a hillside where the water would drain away from them. Those plants are much smaller and have much shorter petioles. I wasn't sure how well these Ensete's would do here in Costa Rica. Our rainy season lasts from May through November and we get between 150-200 inches of rain per year. This is followed by our dry season (or Summer) which runs from December through April. All of the plants grew well for me during the rainy season much to my surprise.

This is my largest plant. It was planted next to the new addition of our rental house and has grown bigger than I expected. It gets part sun here but is shaded for at least half of the day. It is now shading out all of my other plants and palms that are planted around it. The base on this thing is huge! I will get some better photos soon. I love this plant!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Absolutely immaculate!!! I am so impressed with your beautiful Ensete perrieri. We have tried to get the seeds to germinate in so many ways. I hope that you get it to flower and will have some fresh seeds available. This photo should be in the Wiki. Would you mind doing that? I would also nominate it for the Bananas Quarterly magazine, if the resolution is ok with the editors. Magnificent, I love this banana!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Beautiful plant Jeff, Thanks for sharing the pic!:bananas_b

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Wow, thanks for the picture! Not many pictures on the net to see what they look like, so I appreciate you posting that. Really a beautiful and different Ensete. I wasn't expecting it to be so squaty like E. superbum! Is that wax on the pseudostem, I assume? I've given up on my seeds ever sprouting now, although I broke a few open a couple of months back and they still looked good. It's been way over a year on most batches, and just no success at all. Seeing that picture, I am now inclined to buy yet another 100 more, whenever Toby gets some fresh seed in again. Thanks much!

Frank

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

I know exactly what you mean Frank. Right after seeing this photo, I went right to my old seeds and checked them, re-sowed them to be sure. And I still have around 50 of them at the lab. So, guess what I plan to do......:ha:

There is one thing though...I thought that the mid-ribs were more yellow-green, not red at all. Could this perhaps be due to its youth?

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Hi Scot, thanks for the nice comments. I'm not sure what the Wiki is, so I don't know how to post it there. The petioles started out red when they were small, then turned to a yellow/pale orange color as it got bigger.

Frank, The base normally has a blue/green look to it due to all the white powder (wax?) on the base. This is not the best picture of this plant. It's the dry season now and a sprinkler was running all day and the water was hitting the Ensete and flattening down the leaves. Because the base was wet, it didn't have that blue-ish hue to it. I will take some better photos later. In the meantime, I have a few more photos of E. perrieri in different stages of growth, I'll round them up and post them also.

Even though some of my seeds germinated relatively fast, a few more germinated over a year after I received the seeds, so I wouldn't give up hope on older seeds!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Thanks Jeff. Give up? Never, lol! I will take these seeds to my grave if I have to. Then God and I are gonna have a little "sit-down" about why these and ingens wouldn't germinate. I still have about 50 in soil, soil-less mix, peat, vermiculite, perlite, cocopeat, embryo rescue, and whatever else I can find. I have about 50 seeds left that I will start soaking this week. Just looked at a tray of them that were sown in June, about a week before I moved to Vegas. Checked on them today and made sure everything was as it should be.
I hope to post photos of these and ingens by the end of this year. Wish me luck!

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

Good luck Scot!

I'm glad to find some other people interested in this plant.
Here is a photo taken of the above plant in March 2008 before I planted it.


August 2008


September 2008


November 2008

Re: Trying again with Ensete perrieri (from RPS)
 

A few more plants

March 2008