Gabe15

If you do separate suckers and you can manage to preserve some of the roots and plant it right away, it will greatly speed things up and you may not notice any lag period, but in many cases, especially when dealing with a bulk amount of plants, you might need to hold on to them for a bit before planting, and for sanitation purposes it is always a good idea to clean off all the roots to inspect for weevils and treat the corm for potential nematode stow-aways. This also is just my experience from growing in the tropics where pest and disease issues are much more important to consider, in small scale hobby situations outside of the tropics, its not as important to go such activities for transplanting suckers.

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Tytaylor77

I totally agree with clean rootless corms they take a month or sometimes more. I always try to keep as many roots as possible. I see where they make the comparison now. Gabe you know how suckers on a full sized plant comes up. They are 3" or more across right when they come through the surface on some varieties. I would agree it all depends on roots.

One thing great about zone 8b is no nematodes and major pests. Guess winter is good for something after all haha. Thanks Gabe You are very knowledgeable and experienced and I always appreciate your comments.

One question? Me and banana friends have been talking about banana PH. I've read between 5.0-6.5. During your studies did they ever mention the exact magic number for bananas to grow at 100% optimal growth. I know varieties differ but let's just say cavendish since it's the major commercial banana.

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Gabe15

There is no exact magic number, but generally for most crops having a slightly acidic soil pH in the 5.5-6.8 range is ideal due to nutrient availability dynamics. The efficiency of uptake of essential nutrients is variable depending on pH, and somewhere around 6.5 is where all of the essential nutrients have decent availability. Some plants prefer soils outside side of this range, but bananas generally do well between 5.5 and 6.5. Bananas are very dependent on potassium, which availability starts to drop off at around 6.0 and gets worse with increasing acidity (lower pH).

Here is a link to basic information about plant nutrients and pH relations: https://www.pioneer.com/home/site/us...naging-soil-pH

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edwmax

The link to Dr. Fonsah 2003 report is fixed. In it He stated the trial was of "Thirty-one
different cultivars were donated to by Agri-Starts" (TC plantlets; 155 +/- plants ???) and two corms. Additionally it was stated that flowering was expected at 22 weeks after planting. Three of the TCs did flower at 25 weeks but temperatures soon after fell below freezing on November 14th (thus ending the test plot and chance of any other plant flowering). ... I am not confused about what was reported by Dr. Fonsah.

The paper you linked to is an 'Economic' study of Veinte Cohol potential. Of the 10 banana plants grown, 8 of those were TCs. The other 2 were corms. In one growing season (in Georgia), they ALL fruited. ... However, the report does not give info on how the TC plantlets were prepped and grown in the greenhouse; nor does it state the time from field planting to fruiting. ... You said, your attempt the grow Veinte Cohol from TCs to fruiting in one season failed. But the 8 Tcs (the very same exact clone you pictured ???) in that report by Dr. Fonsah DID.

You state you have more experience than I at growing bananas. That I will not argue, but why don't you use that experience to help us 'less' experienced banana growers to make this work? The very report you linked appears to indicates it WILL work.

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edwmax

This is very much the reason & benefits the African farmers are being pushed to replant using TC or their own micro-propagated plants. And, the older established plants are destroyed or harvested.

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Tytaylor77

Oh it does work. VC will go from a 3' pup or TC to fruit in my zone well before first frost. It has for me every year I have tried it and will again this year. I planted several VC 2 days ago and they are on their way, they will fruit this year before frost.

In my experience a TC plant if you even get what it is labeled as will not outperform a pup. I am done with TCs as I'm sure many others on this forum will say the same. Why buy them when you have more pups than you need? There is no corm weevils and banana nematodes in our zone. We have none of the problems they have in the tropics. Again I say show me proof. Do you have Brazilian or Orinoco? Just pay shipping and I will send you a pup. I have them all over right now. You have to agree to pot, water, and grow exactly like I say for a month then plant them into the ground. I 100% guarantee you they will outperform your TC. Seriously PM me. Should cost $10 shipped. I'm serious I want you to compare.

Here is my method. Works every year:
In fall before cool wether usually before thanksgiving I cut all the pups I plan to overwinter. I'm not spending the $ to keep my greenhouse at 60F even here that would cost a lot. I keep it above 40F. If it hits 40F my system turns heat lamps and electric heaters on automatically.

They stay dormant and rooted until I am ready. Early spring they will start growing some. Usually 3-4 leafs by the time I plant them. I plant them in the ground and that's it. Super easy.

I have overwintered HUGE pups and still not gotten fruit unless they are in ground. I have gotten flowers and bunches but not ripe fruit. You have an early start. You will see this year how they do. All I can go by is my experience here in my zone. Should be about the same as yours. I live right on a 4 mile wide lake that helps me a little. Zone 9a is still a good 60 miles from here though.

I wasn't aware of the link I will check it out. However most varieties take well over 300 days to fruit in the tropics. That's Puerto Rico I'm talking. Perfect banana growing climate. A few take under 300 days. USDA Tars has all the info listed. Go check it out. just search Musa. Pictures and info all there.

https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/search.aspx

I am trying hard to get single season fruit from these varieties:
Patupi, Tigua, Monthan, Glui Kui, Chini Chompa, Nino, and a couple others. I haven't had success with anything except VC so far. And almost Patupi. I am confident patupi will with this year. Glui Kui also. I will not say or recommend anything until I try it and do it.

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edwmax

I found the original study test plot for the above referenced Veinte Cohol. Out of 63 banana plants, 32 flowered 4 months after transplanting to the field at Tifton, Ga. These 32 plants include 8 other banana varieties as well as the Veinte Cohol. (Novaria, Blue Torres Island, Cacambou, Dwf Nino, Gold Finger. Grand Nain, Gypumgusi, and Chinese Cavendish)

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Tytaylor77

TC to flower in 120 days. They are way better growers than me. Even overwintering a 6' goldfinger in the ground (which it stays dormant) it takes me 300 total days from digging to flower. Then an extra 3-4 month to ripen. Gran Nain it took 330 days to flower.

Cavendish, VC and other AA types are so cold sensitive when they get hit with nights below 50s they totally stop growing and take sometimes 2 weeks to reset. Not arguing just sharing my experience.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you prove this and change my mind. You have your TC plants. Can't wait to see you flower picks in 4 months. I have my corms and you will be seeing mine a couple months later.

Good luck and I'm very serious about the corm offer. I have a goldfinger corm if you wanna compare that one. PM me.

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edwmax

But you previously stated: Ok, a little change what you were saying between the above two quotes. So now you seem to agree this can work.

Your missing the point here. The reason for growing the TC from October to April/May ( 6 - 7 months) in the greenhouse is to get it a 3 to 4 ft height for transplanting. This would be about 180 to 220 days of the plant normal growing cycle. Which then leaves 150 to 160 days for fruiting and harvest before frost.


I'm glad we actually agree here, because I said 3 to 5 ft. tall in my above post.

Why not sell the pups for $10/ ea (actually VC corms are going for $30/ea) and buy TCs at $2 /ea. ?? But of course if one still has surplus pups, then replant them.

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Tytaylor77

Sounds great on a paper and can be done if you have university $$ resources. If you have a 60F min temp greenhouse to overwinter in (pups only need above 32F). Anything can be done with time and $ I'm saying it's not as efficient and easy as pups are. In my experience.


I can quote too.
I didn't loose any of my first TCs or pups.

Doesn't sound as easy as you say.

Where is your research to back this up?

Now here you have the accurate fruiting times. Or longer. Same times the USDA Tars gov research station in PR says. In the tropics. Are they incorrect?

I would love to hear anyone's experience with truly tiny being short cycle and fruiting reliably every year. Also how many lbs was the bunches? I would also love to see pictures of the kiddie banana commercial farms. Hundreds of 3' plants would look so cool.

Most online sellers sell for $20 shipped. You can buy for $2 per plant if you buy a 72 plant tray from agristarts. Plus shipping? Shipping is high. Also they require you to have a nursery licenses. Then pots and potting soil to pot up and a huge greenhouse to harden them off with a very big very good heating system to keep at or above 60F.

I have purchased the following TC plants and this is what I actually received.
Truly tiny - truly tiny -
Veinte cohol - dwarf cavendish -
BJ ice cream - tall namwa -
Dwarf Orinoco - dwarf Orinoco. -
Mysore PC - Mysore PC -
Raja puri - dwarf cavendish -
Raja puri - ? Not RP -
Goldfinger - Goldfinger off type - still
Manzano - braziallian pome type -

From the following sources. Wellsprings, Florida hill, green earth, eBay.

Maybe this is another reason I dislike TC. This is my honest experience with them. Maybe others have had better success. I enjoy collecting and comparing varieties so I care what I have. I ended up getting PUPs via trades and buying from members on the site. There are some amazing people here and I have made great friends.

Anyway this horse is dead. I have my experience and you have your papers and theories. If your still active here this fall I can't wait to see your results. Please keep us updated. I truly hope you prove me wrong and hope you are successful. Good luck.

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edwmax

I didn't say TC to flower ... Transplant to flower/bunch. You have to include the greenhouse time. And since that year there was heavy rains, the transplant was delayed 2 months until about mid May. TC to flower was more like 210 days or more. Plant samples were received August, December and January before being set out in the test plot.

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Tytaylor77

I read over all the materials you listed and totally understand where the mess up is now. Reread it carefully. These are your links.

Paper1:
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...1/35010086.pdf

Paper2:
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...1/36010048.pdf

Gonna call them paper 1 and paper 2. in the order they are listed above. Here is a quote from paper 1:
Ratoon crop=the suckers/pups crop. He's talking about the 2nd year pup producing faster. Not replanting but using the existing pstems/pups.

Next is paper 2.
I'm not gonna quote it all but this is from the conclusion:
I think what is mixing you up is the dates. He quotes papers such as this: The way he does this in the paper is kinda confusing. But the study was done for a 2 year period. The TC plants were received in March 3rd 2003. NO NEW TC PLANTS WERE RECEIVED IN 2004. The study was done with the same plants still in the ground over winter.

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edwmax

This is an index of Fonsah 'banana' papers. And, yes the 35010086; 35010048; 277-Fonsah; 38030018 reports are all on the SAME test plot planted in 2003 at Savanna, Ga.

The Fonsah-Bogortti and Fonsah-42-1 report is of the new banana trial planted May 11, 2009 at Tifton, Ga

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...1/34010099.pdf : INTEGRATED QUALITY-CONTROL MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES IN BANANA PRODUCTION, PACKAGING, AND MARKETING; Mar-2003

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...1/35010086.pdf : BANANA CULTIVAR TRIALS FOR FRUIT PRODUCTION, ORNAMENTAL-LANDSCAPE USE, AND ORNAMENTAL-NURSERY PRODUCTION IN SOUTH GEORGIA; Mar-2004

Summary: Paper intro comment: 'In the commercial production system utilizing Cavendish varieties such as “Williams” or “Grand Nain,” planting toshooting takes about 20–22 weeks from and shooting to harvest about 12 weeks. This time can be shortened by about 8 weeks when tissue-culture plants are used'.

TC plant arrived late, cutting greenhouse time to 6 weeks to meet transplant time. Statement in conclustion: "we found that starting with tissue culture plants in March did not provideadequate time for fruit production during the 2003 season." However, 3 plant did shoot 25 weeks after planting. A frost occured after shooting on November 14, 2003. Conclusion states: 'Conclusion states: 'For optimum results, the best time to start with tissue culture plants is from mid-November to mid-December'.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...1/36010048.pdf : Second Year Banana Cultivar Trial in South Georgia; Mar-2005

Summary: Recaps the arrival of the TC plant. 'The plantlets were grown in the greenhousefor about six weeks before transplanting to the field. Under ideal conditions, these plants would havebeen grown for at least 12 weeks but because of late arrival of the plants, the nursery time was cut by half.' ... Discusses the choked plants/malformed bunches that flowered between March & June. Noted cultivars flowering after July with normal bunches.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...277_Fonsah.pdf : Third-Year Banana Cultivar Trial in South Georgia; Mar-2006

Summary: Discusses ACP problems for that year and compaires bunch production to 2nd year production.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...2/38030018.pdf : Banana Trials: A Potential Niche and Ethnic Market in Georgia; 2007

Summary: Recaps & summarises the trial results from 2003 to 2006 of the plot planted in 2003; and quility & marketability of bananas. Concludes 'The ideal time for banana fruits production in Georgia is from July to August so that harvest*ing, packaging, distribution and marketing can take place from mid-October to mid-November'.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...ahBogortti.pdf : New Banana Cultivars Trial in the Coastal Plain of South Georgia; Mar-2010

Summary: A new banana Trial test plot at Tifton, Ga of 63 cultivars planted May 11, 2009. Planting was delayed 2 months due to heavy rains (17 inches). 32 of the 63 plants produced fruit 4 months after planting.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...onsah_42_1.pdf : Growth Performance and Economic Potential of 'Veinte Cohol': A Short-Cycle Banana Cultivar Produced in the Coastal Plain of Georgia; Mar-2011

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Tytaylor77

That's the correct information. Thanks for posting it.

Again what you tell the OP will happen is not proven other than with VC. You suggest buying dwarf cavendish or truly tiny TC plants and they will fruit before first frost. All the other varieties other than VC did NOT produce ripe or even filled fruit.

My VC sucker method still flowers and is harvested well before frost the same as the TCs in the test. (Suckers they used did also) and my method keep the greenhouse above 32F vs 60F. Also free pups vs buying new TC each year.

I have early pups that come up every year. February pups I would say 99% of them fruit before first frost. The bunch gets killed by the first frost but they flower just like in the study. You will find a flower is a long ways away from a ripe bunch.

My method costs very little vs the university budget method and gets the same results.

Good luck and keep us updated with your progress.

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Gabe15

Dwarf plants don't inherently fruit faster than their full sized counterparts, they are not just shorter, they are compact, and so each new leaf does not add as much height, but all things being equal they need to produce the same amount of leaves as a taller plant, and so they stay short, but they do not inherently get to maturity quicker.

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Little Belle

I am piggybacking on Vlad's thread. I hope you don't mind Vlad. I am a banana newbie also. My only experience is growing a Dwarf Lady Finger from Logees and a Dwarf Cadavish - both in containers. The Dwarf Lady Finger died after 2 years of doing well; the Dwarf Cadavish seems to be doing fine. Rather than just jumping in (like I want to), without knowing what the heck I am doing, I have decided to wait until Spring 2018 to plant some bananas in my back yard. This should give me plenty of time to read up on how to grow bananas, which to purchase, how to prepare the site, etc. I am in Zone 8a (or 7b), Charlotte NC, and I want to grow edible bananas, preferably in a single season (if possible). So, I guess I am looking at short-cycle and/or dwarf varieties. Unfortunately, I do not have a greenhouse. Should I plan on buying some plants now, or in the Summer or Fall and growing them in containers outside and then moving them into my home in a sunny window until Spring, or should I just buy large plants in the Spring that are "field ready" and can be planted in the ground shortly after purchasing them? I imagine large plants purchased in Spring can be expensive. I would rather not spend a fortune if I don't have to. Moving on to which varieties to purchase: I see a lot of different opinions on here. I was thinking of maybe 2-3 different kinds-- dwarf, short cycle. I have read that they grow better when you plant a few of each kind together. Is there any merit to this? I think that's it for now. Many questions to follow I'm sure. Thanks for helping me get started. Hopefully some day I will be posting photos of bananas that I have grown! It seems like a neat hobby.