pitangadiego

Having watched all the different "Siam Ruby" forms, green, red, half and half, splotchy, etc., exactly how accurate is tissue culture? I would have to assume that all of these haveome genetic difference which leads to their different colors and patterns. So if they are all different, when I buy a "tissue cultured" Goldfinger or Misi Luki, they will all look green (I assume) - but are they acutally different in some way, in the same proportions as the Siam Ruby, even though they "look" the same? Would that explain why people with Goldfinger may have a plant that is 6' tall, or 15' tall, when most are about 10' tall? Maybe that is why my Pitogo (from a relaible source) doesn't look like a Pitogo?! Just have to wonder how many new "varieties" have been created by TC that we don't realize are out there.

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JoeReal

My theory is that several hundred thousand years of vegetative mode reproduction has allowed bananas to evolve quicker too, by easily mutating under various environmental stresses, not only during reproductive recombination of genes. Tissue culture is a great physical-chemical stresser, so the effects are easily observed. Remember the discussions about the wacko unregulated experimentations done in Thailand to produce various freakish variegated bananas?

Plus the same TC procedures cannot be used for all cultivars of bananas, we know that in Ae ae as the best example. So we cannot generalize that TC will produce true clones.

And besides, mislabeling by low paid employees at anywhere in the several TC steps up to shipping is still by far the biggest culprit of why the bananas that I get are not even closely related to the one I ordered, and that's true for about a third of the time.

bananimal

Jon,

My Pitogo today is about 16 ft tall. Is this typical, or a result of genetic discombobulation? Caliper at ground level is 10 inches. Oh yeah, my Goldfinger is at 17 ft with no sign of a flag. Caliper is 16 inches. No flagging either. Muy robusto, pero no hay fruitango! Sorry Jon.

Dan

pitangadiego

Joe, I understand the mis-labelling, issues, etc. but I think in the case of the Siam, it is clear that none of them were Dwarf Cavendishes, or something, which were mislabelled. They are clearly progency of the SR, but also, seemingly, not clones. Their distinctive color makes it easy to see the variability, but I was wondering how much variability there is in TCs which don't have coloration or some other characterisitc to signal that they are not clones.

Bananimal, I am assuming your measurements are to leaf tip. My "Pitogo" has about 11' of trunk and 5' of leaves, and pretty slender. Goldfinger is usually 9' of trunk and 5-6' of leaves. Sounds like you ought to be close on both.

__________________
Encanto Farms Nursery
http://encantofarms.com
We Be Bananas
http://webebananas.com

JoeReal

I hope I have mentioned it clearly that the TC process itself can induce variability and may not be producing true clones from evolutionary perspective.

There are some clues that the variegation is more phenotypic in nature rather than genotypic. We know how pH, sunshine exposure and fertilizer management can affect the pattern of variegation. Much more if they have undergone the physical and chemical exposures during the TC process. Even with cats and dogs, the true genetic clones will not show exactly the same pattern of spots.

Whether these are phenotypic or genotypic variability, that would require tremendous study and I can only speculate. Has genetic tests been done to the various TC clones? We surely cannot predict what characteristics the TC plants will have, nor the range of variabilities if we haven't actually tested them scientifically. The best alternative right now are the statement of experiences from amongst us by comparing how those various TC plants perform. This, however will also be as unreliable as the labeling process when we compare our TC cultivars. This is also compounded by the fact that various companies, people have various techniques.

Perhaps Gabe has more experience and interaction with people in the TC business and how such banana plants perform.

modenacart

Even if they are true clones, different enviroments will cause different reactions from each plant.

bananimal

Jon Pit D,

I have been deliberately pushing the Pitogo and the G-fingr hard with heavy doses of 6-2-12 from GB, as well as Milorganite and cow Manure. Want fruit this year. One would think that cow poop really smells -- but let me tell ya -- that sewer sludge from Wisconson is heady stuff sniffed when you first open the bag. I used it to give my 3 little guys a kick in the pants and decided to dump a few pounds on the others as well.

A month later the little guys - Raja Puri, Red Iholene and Dwf Brazilian, have put out bigger leaves. The Pit and GF continue to push 7 ft leaves - but no flag. BTW the P has fat leaves, only the Kru has thin. The GF will start growing into the power line soon but the cable looks insulated. I'll post pics of P and G soon.

Dan

Here are the pics. Numbers overestimated, also forgot height convention at leaf emergence.

Pitogo


Goldfinger

modenacart

I don't know if you know this but the morganite is nothing but nitrogen. You can get a balanced 10-10-10 for cheaper.

JoeReal

The proper technical term for that is phenotypic expression. Simply put it is the specific environment by genotype interaction.

Lagniappe

Even within the same mat one may expect to find individual plants which stand out from the rest in one way or another .