damaclese

I don't know how many of you will join in, I hope a lot but before any of you post in this thread I am personally going to monitor it due to its potential for bad behavior so let’s stick to our own opinions. No name calling, no manipulation. Every one is entitled to express themselves in a civil way for the purpose of sharing where we all are coming from and in that hopefully we could potentially come together in remembering we are all Americas detected to “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”. That being said lets talk!

P.S., for those of you that are not American your comments are more than welcome too. I find an outside view very helpful at times, so don't think this is just an American thing, its a human one too with all sorts of multinational dimensions.

I, as well as I'm sure most of us here, have been watching the healthcare debate on C-span as well as the peripheral goings on a cross the country in both the liberal and conservative parties. It has been to say the least, an Eye opining experience. I think the thing that is most concerning for me is the hatred that’s been expressed by the conservative extreme. I know they are not the majority of the American public though, and I'm sure they think they are but it’s been looking more and more to me like there is a potential for violence. I think this has a lot to do with certain political people that have been stirring things up with a lot of hate talk. Why do we have to hate? Just because we don't see things on the same ideological level? It’s not healthy. I tell you from my point of view its looking more and more like our government is not in control at all and that we are becoming ungovernable.

I know since the beginning we have been having this back and forth debate about states rights, but there comes a point no mater which side of the debate you are on that we must act as a single mind, no mater what. If we all start acting like 50 little country's I cant see any long turn hope of maintaining our union as one country.

Our original forefathers had a relatively homogenous and small population to govern. Today, on the other hand, we have a highly culturally diverse group of citizens and non citizens to govern. I think although it was a good experiment, that the time has come that we must adapt to the realties of contemporary life in 2010, and face up to the fact that it’s not really working all that well these days.

Both the Senate and the House of Representatives have become unstable through a manipulation of their daily operating rules. Why can’t they just use Robert’s rules like every other governing body? These have been established over hundreds of years, and lend themselves to the smooth and quick dispensing of the democratic rule of law.

I know for a long time one particular party (we All know which one it was) was in control, and I say well, it was the majority's will that this should have been the case but and I'm sorry a few bad apples ruined it by deciding to get mean spirited and change the rules so that the minority party could not have a say in any decision no mater how small. It looks to me that this kind of backfired on them, as no party stays in power forever, so now they find them selves on the short end of the stick so to speak and now there all up in arms about it. Well I say you all made these mean spirited rules. This 60 vote super majority rule sucks. It doesn't make things go fast at all. These are desperate times needing quick and decisive actions not months if not years of debate.

What are “We the People” of these United States to think when our leaders act as barbaric and mean spirited as it comes? Where is the concern for the people, the ones that duly elected these schmucks in the first place? I don't give a blank-ity blank which side you are on, it’s all wrong. Both the way the wheeling and dealing has gone way of center. I certainly understand the need for compromise in these types of debate, but you can’t sell your soul to the devil in order to keep the peace. Sometimes we have to face facts. Some people are just not inherently informed enough to understand that their wishes are counter productive, but spewing hate in order to further your agenda will only lead to more isolation from the main stream and ultimate violence in order to further your point can only result in the most grievous of harm to the body elect. Somewhere we lost our way. Brothers and sisters somehow we have come to believe that our opinion is the only one worth considering somewhere we have come to have a wholly self raucousness to believe that we are entitled. You are not entitled to any thing in this life, not even the air we breathe, that too comes at a price. Life can at its worst be a wholly scraping of the earth, fighting tooth and nail to survive, or it can be a beautiful expression of love and peace. It’s ultimately up to each and every one of us to look beyond our personal agenda and connect with each other, leaving the hurts of the past behind us and putting a renewed effort in to getting along with each other. After all I don't know about you all but I left the school yard playground years ago and I'm not going to debase myself by acting like a bully in order to further my agenda.
thanks
Paul

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Abnshrek

First of all the People of Texas are in the best seat since they can with drawl @ any time if voted on & signed by the governor. :^) Well I personally think the elections were rigged thru the help of illegal voter registration of ACORN, Obama's partial employer prior to being "the Pres". Unless someone's sitting on their butt rich or poor we just got screwed like it or not. It's like the analogy.. you plant a garden all a sudden the town hall comes and says you have to give half of it to your neghbor a half mile down the road.. It doesn't matter they have more land or not. It doesn't matter if they don't feel like planting a garden. Redistribution w/ fee's to whoever paid off our rep's-off (legally of course) the best.. They should have just said, "bend over America."
P.S. Buy more "Made in PRC (China)" stuff so we can default on the govt's debt sooner :^)

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LilRaverBoi

I'm not going to share any of my views here, because honestly, I've seen way too many of these threads on forum sites to know how they all end up. No offense intended to anyone, but I still don't understand why people attempt to discuss such things in diverse groups such as this. It's just asking for failure.

Predicted thread decline in 3, 2, 1....

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D.C._Palms_N_Sports_Fan

Paul, Check your PM's when you get a moment. I sent you something that I hope you will find helpful.

Happy Holidays!

KJ

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saltydad

I am a deeply committed liberal/progressive. However, like Bryan I have never found these discussions to turn out well on a specialty board like this. It caused animosity and drop outs on a baseball board that I frequent. I have too many friends here at the org of both (actually all) sides of the political spectrum. So I say save this discussion for a political forum, for PM's, and for the dinner table and your own blogs. I value this forum too much to take a chance on disrupting it. Thanks for listening to my humble opinion.

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Abnshrek

As one can tell I'm ultra conservative, but I'm not a republican. It doesn't matter who we vote in now days. We get chin music so satisfy the majority for reelection or election. It's what the rep's don't talk about on their voting record that concerns me. I can say I have balance in my life since my better half isn't like me. People don't have to call names and such.. Cause the root of the matter is everyone is getting screwed over, so we're all in the boat.. regardless of views.. Peace out :^)

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D.C._Palms_N_Sports_Fan

I am the same as you, though I prefer to call myself "progressive". That said, I could not agree more with your post! Good job!

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damaclese

well even thou i created this thread i tend to agree with your observations but on the other hand if the stars are Aliening just so and the planets have just the right amount of spin then perhaps there could be one thought shared a among bitter enemy's that plants a seed of common Union that has the potential to lead to world piece just because something is hard dose not mean its not worth doing and to get even cornear the Journey of a thousand miles starts but with a single step

PS thanks to a vary nice person my original texts has been edited so reread it I'm sure it makes more sens now

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lorax

Here's an outside opinion, Pauly - an expat Canadian living in Ecuador. These are two places that the US government raises as hotbeds of the "evil" socialsim.

I have always found the US system of election and governance to be incredibly confusing and unweildy, and almost guaranteed to produce corruption and misrepresentation of the people. In particular, the electoral college seems to me to be a redundant organization in place solely to fix the results of your main elections. There is no surprise to me that the American public in general has become greatly apathetic when it comes to elections - the last three (at least) have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that it doesn't matter how they vote.

In contrast, both Canada and Ecuador operate on the more direct (and democratic) system of "the candidate with the most total votes wins." Equally, in Ecuador as in Canada, if you are a citizen and have NOT registered to vote by election day, you can simply show up at your local polling place with your photo ID and your phone or electricity bill, be registered ON THE SPOT, and go on and vote. Ecuador goes the further measure of FINING the people who don't vote $50 (a lot of money, here), which ensures that our voter turnout is always in the high 90% range. Canadians are allowed to be apathetic - but I'd point out that in the Canadian system, we can change the names of our politicians but not the policy, and nothing really gets done without the OK of HRM the Queen (this is a topic for another discussion - Pauly, if you're interested in finding out why this is, pm me). Both countries use UN scrutineers to ensure that no fraud takes place in counting, something the US has always declined.

The other thing that has always confused me about the US system of governance is the bipartisan system. Democracy is supposed to be about choice, and I've always interpreted this as "more than two options." In Canada, there are at least 4 parties in each province (5 in Quebec), and in Ecuador, there are more than 150. What I've noticed about the US is that regardless of which ideology politicians claim to adhere to (ie "conservative" or "liberal" which are the two choices you've got up there...), they are ultimately answerable to only one ideology - "Cash is King" - and therefore can't be counted on to support their declared one. This problem isn't unique to the US, of course - it's just most plainly visible there. Joe Lieberman is an excellent example. The bipartisan system means that the US has never been forced to form minority governments (as is currently the case in Canada, and always the case in Ecuador) and therefore has never learned compromise as a style of governance. This allows the government, which has therefore nearly unlimited power, especially in the case of controlling both house and senate, to act like the proverbial 500lb gorrilla.

And that's the root of the problem.

The other thing that I don't understand (perhaps because I grew up in one "socialist" country and currently live in another), is the violent American fear of socialism. Those of you who know why I can't travel to the US will perhaps laugh about this, but at the same time, I'm not a Communist, and precious few Canadians (or Ecuadoreans for that matter) are. The thing that I've observed is that to most Americans, Socialism = Communism, something that is, to me, a blatant misrepresentation at best, and flat out wrong at worst. Coming around to the health-care debate: there are immense benefits to even a mixed socialist form of governance - which is what Ecuador and Canada both have - the countries provide basic healthcare and hospitals free of charge to all citizens, and there is also a private option for anybody who wants to use it. I've used both systems in both countries, and they're equally excellent. A portion of the income tax paid by each citizen pays for the expense. This system works rather well in a rather large number of countries, in both the old and new world. AND IT IS NOT COMMUNISM. Britain, on whose system Canada is modeled, is a monarchy (which is about as far off Communism as one can get!), Canada is a colony, and Ecuador is a Republic (just like the US, really - our basic constitution is modeled on yours!).

Social benefit does not create a welfare state - if it did, Canada's unemployment rate would be much higher than that of the US. (and I use these two countries because their economies are similar in scale and type.) But it isn't - in fact, in Canada it's currently much lower. There is nothing at all scary or shameful about protecting the vulnerable sections of your population.

Here's the thing:
(and probably the thing that will get me yelled at...)

As the US economy is based almost in its entirety upon killing and destruction, there is perhaps an understandable reluctance to divert some of the (immense!) budget towards programs designed to help people. You're simply not in that business. A peaceful resolution to anything is not the first thing your government traditionally seeks. Thanks to the system of lobbyists and the parallel system of corporate appointments, politicians can be counted on to continue supporting the military-industrial complex. Your own Pres. Truman warned you about this exact situation and was completely ignored.

Your country has a history of revolution. Perhaps it's time.

D.C._Palms_N_Sports_Fan

Lorax, I cant say that I disagree with most anything in your post. I am an "American", and I am proud of my country's heritage, however, that does not mean that I agree with everything my nation does. I do not. In fact, I mostly disagree with it at this point in time, and I honestly am NOT very proud to be an "American", especially after having to suffer through the last 8 years. I do not think that the United States has turned out the way our forefathers thought nor intended it would, at all. Furthermore, there are times where, I feel like I want to leave the U.S., for good. The older I get, the more I am leaning towards ways of possibly doing just that. I mean, hell, Im denied basic civil rights on some levels in this country still today, in most places, just because I am who I am.

As for the two party system, well, it is not the best, but unfortunately, its what the majority in both parties will allow us to have for the time being. I am, as I pointed out staunchly progressive, so much so that many of my views are actually much more "Socialist" than "liberal", which often leads to many very conservatives, and even a fair number of "liberals" to label me as "communist".

Anyway, that said, I still agree, this thread is probably doomed for a not so nice ending. Perhaps if there was a "political" or "Politics" forum on here that would be the best place for it, that way, those so inclined could venture there to post it out to their hearts content. Anyway, enough from me. Im starting to get "involved" in this, when I said I would not.

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CValentine

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Hard to compete or be heard unless you have a pile of $$$. ~Cheryl

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momoese

As for not talking about this or that because this is a banana forum, that's hooey....... we have this side forum called the tiki hut and this is exactly what it's for, off topic dicussion. You don't have to participate or even read it, it's entirely your choice.

damaclese

finly some one that understands the rules of the tiki hut!

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revensen

I'm sure there are probably places in the world that might be better in some regards but I consider myself pretty lucky to have been born here in the grand scheme of things.

Capitalism is great for those who participate. It doesn't work when those who can participate don't.

damaclese

I'm sure that would all be true if all people could participate but not every one has a head or the stomach for business. if we did in fact live in a capitalist society but sins we don't actually then things are probably more messed up then they may aper on the surface. but capitalism isn't really the topic here we are talking about the resent events of the last 60 days or so relating to the health care debate and its affects or the fight that has resulted in the "Conservative vs. liberal view points" and how the bill as it passed the Senate was so watered down do to the whiling and dealing that its basically is no improvement or vary little improvement at all or at least thats my opinion

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saltydad

While I feel that I understand the role that Tiki Hut can play here, I still have my fears and cautions. I am a Washington Nationals fan, and at wnff.net the acrimony was severe. We thought since we all loved our baseball team we could discuss things like friends, but the old saw of avoiding religion and politics for discussions proved only too true. A real shame, as some of the lost posters were close friends and the words that escalated the discussion still hurt. I really want to wave a red flag here. i love and need this place. It's like family, and I already have one dysfunctional one!

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revensen

That's a great point and well put. One of the reasons I love this hobby so much is that it's a healthy escape from the day to day BS of life. I wasn't thinking when I replied as the last thing I want to do is to be thinking about healthcare reform tonight when I'm watering my seedlings.

Abnshrek

Well I hope someone has health care and insurance stock and or is actually helped by the program. I think when it comes down to cost(s) it going to be the govt's insurance policy to keep the previously mentions from getting bailout $$$ :^)

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Richard

The terms Conservative and Liberal have become tools that are used to manipulate you. The more a person uses or identifies with one or the other, the more manipulated they become. Stop using these terms and start thinking for yourself what your cultural and economic interests are instead of what labels they fall under.

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