Re: Fruit Fuel
 

In many cases yes, but it is complicated.

To begin, let's differentiate between a "complete fertilizer" and a "supplement". Some supplements are only available (or affordable) in non-soluble form and need to be worked into the mulch above the soil/root zone. Then, over a season or two they will break down from rain and/or irrigation water into a desirable form. Notice you might have to start 6 to 9 months ahead of any planting.

Another angle to consider is whether we are using the outdated method of "maintaining soil levels" of nutrients or instead, maintaining a soil with good texture, pH, etc. but "feeding the plants" more directly with a water-soluble. The practice by large-scale agriculture of "maintaining the soil levels" with granular 15-15-15 or similar is the major cause of nitrate pollution of ground water in California and elsewhere. Further, they must over-feed because with the granular form of nitrogen about 1/2 will escape to the air due to soil-water-fertilizer interactions. So it seems cheaper but actually it is not if you consider how much is actually absorbed by the plants.

As long as we are considering the environment, Nicholas made the excellent comment in this thread that folks growing in the ground in the Florida peninsula already have intense concentrations of Phosphates. Adding more is tipping a delicate eco-balance which is why phosphates are banned in lawn fertilizers sold in Florida.

I also want to acknowledge that there are many farmers in the world who only "irrigate" by rainfall. A large fraction of these farmers either don't have access to or can't afford a means of applying a water-soluble.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Good information all around.

Here I think we have a overabundance of water in the form of rain. I had to make raised beds for most of my plantings, and I'm on a sand hill.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

60 cents per pound is not dirt cheap.

10-5-20 is 30 cents per pound retail in PR, and most consider that too expensive.

If you want 60 cents per pound, you'll need a catchy name & a nice package.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

I don't really see that it matters how much the bulk ingredients cost. Only someone who hasn't ever actually produced anything for sale would only count the cost of the base ingredients in the cost of production.

Not only do you have the ingredients, the shipping or delivery, the bagging costs, the testing and trials, your own time, any monies spent to experts for consultation... with all that, if he makes a good profit, great for him! Smaller bags of anything cost more per/weight than larger bags or bulk amounts. Even buying flour works that way.

I know I spent a lot about $0.50/lb for my specialty fertilizer, and it's a commercially made granule, not made by someone who specifically worked on a banana fertilizer for years to perfect it. BUT I only bought one bag, and if I bought it by the ton(2000 lbs) then I'm sure it would be lots less pricy. However, I'd be up the creek if I had a ton of fertilizer here. In fact, the NSA might come looking to see why I needed it all! LOL!

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Today my first order of the year arrived, complete with Fruit Fuel! My yard is under construction with no driveway so the pallets were deposited on the street. A hand-truck, wheelbarrow, and an hour later it was tucked away in the garage.

Grow More 16-8-24 Fruit Fuel, 5-pound bag
Grow More 16-8-24 Fruit Fuel, 25-pound bag

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Cannot wait to try it.
Should be good for my apricots, too?!

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

You bet!

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

These guys have been around for awhile.

Grow More | A Symbol of Quality

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Note [3/27/2014]: This discussion is continued here: http://www.bananas.org/f312/fruit-fu...ers-20052.html

Feeding time! I have yet to install irrigation, so I hooked up one of the fertigators to my hose line and gave my fruiting plants their first feeding of the year. After I install the irrigation, I'll create "docks" for the fertigators so I can feed various plant groups indepedently; e.g., fruiting plants, leafy vegetables, tubors, herbs. The unit you see in the picture is a Dosatron D14MZ2 attached to the back of a Dosatron cart.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Richard, I remembered that you were using the Dosatron products. I am just fine with my 5 gallon water bucket and measuring out my fruit fuel with a measure cup.
However, one neighbor was walking by and suggesting to use something like the Miracle Gro garden feeder. I personally think that would not be that precise than my more work intensive water bucket, but would like to get your input on this.
My newly planted fruit trees and the banana pups I got from you last fall are getting half of what my big established banana mats get (one bucket vs two for the mats)but I strongly feel that the mats could use even more....Sure it would be nice to make it less labor intensive, but so far my labor has always paid of compared to the neighbors yard ;) But a Dosatron is out of my budget.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Having been to your house, I would say that method is a good match to the number of plants you are feeding.

The Miracle Gro Marketing Corp. actually has two dispenser products, one made for their Miracle Gro fertilizer packets and the other labeled "Ortho Dial N' Spray". The latter is a good product for dispensing liquids (I use it for pesticides) but otherwise a pain-in-the-calculator for your application.

Yes, the Dosatron is an investment in infrastructure. You could consider the Grow More fertilizer injector (requires investment in a 5+ gallon bucket): Grow More 1:15 Siphon Mixer, 0.75-inch shrink wrap. I use this inline for my Vacciniums and Orchids.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Well, no investment needed in another 5 gallon water bucket....
For now, I think I will stick with it, but next time I stock up on my fruit fuel, I will check back with you on the Siphon Mixer....
Btw: my new trees and the banana plants love the fruit fuel.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Sorry if I missed it but what do you charge for this fertilizer and how often or in what quantity do you recommend it to be applied?

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Here's the details

Water-soluble version (recommended): Grow More 16-8-24 Fruit Fuel, 5-pound bag

Organic gardening version: Grow More Organic Fruit Fuel, 4.5-pound pail

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

I opened my newly-received bag of this fertilizer yesterday but it was clumped together like hard clay; obviously a lot of moisture had got in. Is it worthless or should it still be capable of doing its job? The clumps can be broken up by hand and most of the tablespoon I used dissolved in a gallon of cold water without any stirring. The color when dissolved in water was brown.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Actually, the only water in the bag was from the manufacturing process. The Calcium content in the fertilizer causes it to set. There is nothing wrong with the product, and as you noticed it is easily reduced to powder. The initial color of the product is grey, but will color the water brown due to the iron content.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Mine looked black almost in my auto-feeder, but I'm sure it works just as well as blue (Banana Fuel).. :^)

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

That's a relief! Thanks. I got concerned because I have a different Grow-More soluble fertilizer that is truly a powder so I assumed they all would be.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Banana Fuel did the same thing except got alot harder, but reduces in water really well.. :^)

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Just wondering why the fuel wasn't made as granular as well?

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

The Organic Fruit Fuel is in granular form.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Will the Organic be available in a bigger bag soon?

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Grow More would typically package granular in 15-lb and 50-lb bags. I am considering 20-lb. Do you have a preference?

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

I think we should add Fruit Fuel to the list of "Nursery Fertilizers" on the wiki: Info:Fertilizer - Bananas Wiki

On a more general note, is it ok to fertilize transplanted bananas before they start actively growing again? Or is it better to wait for them to resume growth before adding the fertilizer?

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

If they have roots, yes -- provided the dosage is appropriate for the plant size and season.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

IDK what shipping would cost on 50lb, but I could use 50lb a year. And that is not even on the bananas.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

In terms of nutrients that plants receive: 50 lbs of 4-4-7 Organic Fruit Fuel is equal to 12.5 lbs of water-soluble 16-8-24 Fruit Fuel. (Aside: the 4-4-7 has higher proportion of P and K because a portion of these will be bound up in the soil in a granular application.)

So in your situation, a 25-lb bag of 16-8-24 would be sufficient for your entire garden for a year. This ships anywhere in the U.S. by USPS LFRB (large flat rate box) for $15.80.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

I was assuming I would use the granular 2 - 3 times a year. I prefer soil building over liquid. Mostly because Liquid needs to be reapplied every 1 - 2 weeks and I just havent had the time for that. Granular is just a easy way for me to be a little lazy.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

That's how most people use the water-soluble.

Once a garden patch has been inoculated with soil microbes it is good for 7-10 years.

That's not true. The dosage is per month, which can be doubled or tripled and applied every 2 or 3 months during the growing season. People who apply more frequently to a large garden do so because they have an injection system.

For injection systems, the EZ-Flo is very expensive and very poorly rated (except by company advertisers). The Dosatron systems are about 2/3 the cost of EZ-Flo, used professionally for decades, and for a large garden will pay for themselves over the cost of organic granular vs. complete water-soluble in 1 to 2 years. For smaller gardens a siphon mixer with a 5 gallon bucket is the way to go.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

I have been using a 55 gal Barrel as my mix batch and pumping it throught my sprinklers. I was using it quite often. Now that my sprinklers are not working correctly I was going to do 1 cup per 5 gal bucket per plant or matt.

Should be, but with City water, plant feeding, leechin gout and if I use other chemical fertlizer I like to always replace. I notice a difference so I do like to go that route still.

I am one of "Those" that are trying to push off "Chemical" based fertlizers.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

One of the great things about fertigation is that you can mitigate the city water before it gets to the plants and thus the soil biology thrives.

The main differences between organic and inorganic water-solubles are (1) no nitrate compounds, and (2) no man-made amino acid chelates. Otherwise the organic-rated ionic compounds in an organic fertilizer come straight from a chemical factory.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

What if I dont feel like mixing, and just spreat 1 - 2 cups of water solubles around the base and wait for the rain to do its thing?

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

For many reasons, it needs to be dissolved in water before contacting a significant quantity of soil.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

the only problem with this injector is its for garden hose applications only. if you are looking for something to cut into your sprinkler system, try this. I have one in my back yard and I LOVE it. the guy makes all different sizes to fit your needs
Drip Irrigation Fertilizer Injector 1½ Quart Capacity ½" FPT Inlet Outlet | eBay

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

WARNING: although this product is advertised as "proportioning" it is actually non-proportional. 50% of the contents of the tank will be dispensed in the first 10% of flow -- and the majority of that to your first sprinkler/drip outlet.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

It is pretty difficult to know how the injector is designed without looking at it and taking it apart. According to the manufacturer, it is proportioning and the 1.5 quart model requires 75 gallons of flow for the fertilizer to be dispersed.

http://fertilizerdispensers.com/serv...portioning.pdf
http://fertilizerdispensers.com/serv...hure_table.pdf

Even if most of the fertilizer solution did get dispersed in the first 10% of the irrigation, the majority of that would not go to the first outlet unless you only had two outlets.

I cannot recommend the product without having more information or personal experience with it.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

In the product description, you can read that This means that contents of the dispenser are continuously diluted. The more flow that passes through the system the weaker the concentration becomes. For the 1.5 quart size container, total replacement occurs at 200 x 1.5 qts = 300 qts = 75 gallons of flow. However, the concentration will drop geometrically and the concentration will be at 50% after the first 10% of flow; i.e., 7.5 gallons. Further, a typical irrigation pipe has a 5 gallon capacity from the valve to the 1st sprinkler head/drip outlet so the majority of the 7.5 gallons will be disbursed to the 1st outlet while the remaining outlets will receive the fresh water that was ahead of it in the pipe. After that, all outlets receive diminishing returns.

For a number of years the EZ-Flo company received criticism for this kind of design and the behavior I describe above was reported by a number of studies by universities and manufacturers alike. Finally, EZ-Flo modified it's design with a feedback loop to offset the geometric progression. It works a little better now. Still, no one in professional agriculture uses them. The choice for small scale systems is Venturi suction (e.g., devices made by Dramm and Grow More) and for larger scale the choice is water pressure driven pump injectors (e.g., Dosatron and Dosmatic).

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Richard, even if I have 5 gallons of solution in the pipeline to the first outlet, most of that will continue to flow to the following outlets. I understand the principles quite well having used commercial injectors for three orchards of about 8 acres and having successfully completed a course in irrigation engineering.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Exactly my point.

l have also studied irrigation injectors in detail. There is good reason for requiring constant concentration in delivery: one of them being the incompressibility of water. When it comes to outlets, the result is always "first come first served". This is very important to keep in mind when using an injector for chemigation.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Richard, you wrote earlier that over half of the first 10% solution would go to the first outlet in the line. I then indicate most of it would continue to flow past the first outlet. And then you say that is exactly your point. These are not congruent.

There are different scenarios on how such an injector could deliver the fertilizer. If one began injecting into a drip hose (for either drip emitters or micro-sprinklers) that was empty when the water was turned on, much of the first 10% would go to the end of the line as water flowed to fill the drip hose. Such would be the case in my orchards which drain after my 5 HP pump is turned off (I pump about 125 GPM for my orchard). If someone was irrigating a line that was already full and the grower was using outlets that offered little resistance, a higher percentage of the solution would flow out of the first outlet.

I am not recommending the product but your explanation that a majority of the solution coming out of the first outlet simply is not accurate. It could actually work okay, releasing the fertilizer fairly evenly in all of the outlets in the right situations, though I certainly don't advocate such a quick injection of the fertilizer. My typical orchard irrigation is about 15 hours long and I inject fertilizer after the system has been running for a couple of hours (spending much of that time checking for coyote damage, etc.) and then inject my fertilizer solution over an hour or two. I use Mazzei verturi-style injectors which are the dominant product used in orchards in California.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Harvey, there are two basic scenarios: one with the downstream irrigation pipe nearly empty initially (downhill pipe) and the other with the same nearly full of water (an uphill pipe prior to fertigation). Fertilizer delivery is measured by non-interfering collectors (no back pressure) at each emitter. For the non-proportioinal systems: if the downstream pipe is nearly empty then by far the greatest concentration exits the terminal emitter, and for the opposite scenario the majority exits the 1st emitter. This effect is due to the rapid dilution of the tank. I have seen the test in the lab: you are welcome to experiment yourself.

Here in San Diego county there are plenty of landscape contractors that install EZ-Flo and other non-proportional fertigation products. A few years later the homeowner starts having serious problems and myself or one of the consulting firms (e.g., CPS) swaps their tank out for either a Dosatron or Dramm injector which for the same size system is 1/4 to 1/2 the price of the original non-proportional.
:lurk:

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

I dont know what model your refering to, but the Dosatron that I found on ebay was $300. Im redoing my backyard and I want a cheap system to shoot into the lines. Hell.....maybe ill go old school and run a Mazzei with a bunch of ball valves manifolded

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

:2738:Hi...I am just getting back into Bananas But I was always told to use 20-20-20 and my tree wintered over in western Ky....
:03:

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Tripple 20 is a generic all purpose fertilizer. The idea behind "Fruit Fuel" is A two-one-three part fertilizer to promote good growth and plant health without forcing a bloom. (Middle number is for bloom) I havnt tried it yet but all the reads sound fantastic. I ordered some and it came today:woohoonaner:

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Ok so I cracked open my order of Fruit Fuel today and mixed op my first batch.. from my experience with other Growmore products, it usually pours out like salt. My order of Fruit Fuel however has the consistency of brown sugar. Is this normal ? Mixed my batch 3 tbps to a 3 1/2 gal bucket

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

15 hours @ 125 gph? How does this not completly flood your field? I would think this would leave standing water everywhere. Do you water every other day? Just seems like A mini flood for someone like me.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

For this formula, yes. Some of the minerals in the formula give it a hydroscopic nature. Also, there is no blue vegetable dye so main colors present are gray (from potash salts) and brown (from iron chelate). In next year's batch we are going to try adding a natural decoagulant so the product does not harden as much in storage.

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Might go get a tds meter and play with some ideas before making a purchase
only problem is I have high & low volume lines. But thats nothing a few jumper lines won't fix

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

It is a good idea to take measurements. The venturi devices require flow. If your water pressure is low (below 50psi) then I'd recommend an inline electric pump to maintain velocity. Harvey makes a good point about the Mazzei injectors -- who also manufacture venturi injectors for other brand names ;) If you are considering the pressure-fed pumps, then visit the Dosatron and Dosmatic websites directly. In particular you'll see that Dosatron has systems for just about every pressure/flow situation. While you're doing that, get a list of recommended distributors for your area or online. That way you'll be sure to get all the parts.
:lurk:

Re: Fruit Fuel
 

Ok so I've been a Fruit Fuel user for a week now, one thing I noticed right away. Fruit Fuel gives the strength to crack the p-stem for the plant to gain girth and take off. I've tried several fertilizer programs and never had these results so fast. Im sold on Richards program so far !!! Bravo sir, 5 stars !!!