Fertilizers: N-P-K and Quantity - Page 2

turtile · 07-02-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

You know, that was my thought when I first started reading agricultural extension papers from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, UC Davis, Yale, and U of Florida. In mathematics, we call it "abuse of notation" when something is abbreviated to the point of ambiguity. The fact is though, that when you read a plant science report recommending N-P-K ratios of 3:1:2 for citrus or 16:1:24 for bananas, they are referring to the N-P-K of fertilizer labels and not the literal meaning of the symbols in chemistry.

You will not find one report using N-P-K ratios for fertilizer. You'll find N-P2O5-K2O. Look at any fertilizer analysis label and you will not find one that uses N-P-K. There is nothing confusing about it. The labels display the exact percentage of the symbols on the analysis.

If you read report stating the tissue analysis, N-P-K will be used.

Richard · 07-02-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtile

You will not find one report using N-P-K ratios for fertilizer. You'll find N-P2O5-K2O. Look at any fertilizer analysis label and you will not find one that uses N-P-K. There is nothing confusing about it. The labels display the exact percentage of the symbols on the analysis.

If you read report stating the tissue analysis, N-P-K will be used.

I see we are in complete agreement!

turtile · 07-02-2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

I see we are in complete agreement!

No, elemental P and K don't exist on fertilizer recommendations. The amount of nutrients taken up by a plant are in the elemental form. Thus, you must convert the elemental from into the oxide from in order to add the same amount of elemental nutrients into the soil.

Therefore, the 1.5lbs of elemental potassium that you say a banana takes up must be converted to the oxide from in order to make a fertilizer recommendation.

Fertilizer labels do measure by the chemical symbols stated which is completely opposite from your statement. Again, there is nothing that you can't read on the fertilizer label.

Richard · 07-02-2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtile

Therefore, the 1.5lbs of elemental potassium that you say a banana takes up must be converted to the oxide from in order to make a fertilizer recommendation.

Somewhere you have misunderstood. My statements have concerned potash, especially here: Info:Fertilizer - Bananas Wiki

turtile · 07-03-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Somewhere you have misunderstood. My statements have concerned potash, especially here: Info:Fertilizer - Bananas Wiki

Your original post stated potassium with the symbol K in parenthesis. K is the symbol for the element potassium which still exists next to potash in your updated post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

N-P-K: The percentages by weight of Nitrogen (N), Phosphate (P), and Potash (K) in a fertilizer. For example, a fertilizer labeled 4-1-1 has 4% N, 1% P, and 1% K by weight. This is true for both liquids and solids. A common beginner's error is attempting to make a custom fertilizer mix by volume instead of weight.

Again, you are using chemical symbols for the elements and are misinterpreting the fertilizer labels. Its not 1% P but P2O5, and not 4% K but K2O by weight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Minor and Micronutrients: Plant scientists have identified over 20 minerals required by plants for normal growth. The Primary nutrients are N, P, and K. For convience, manufacturers and retailers usually lump the others under the single name 'micronutrients' -- although a plant scientist would label Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur, and sometimes Iron as 'minors'. It is important for gardeners to understand that there is a complex chemical relationship between all of the mineral nutrients. Too much or too little of one in the growing media can inhibit the plant from uptaking others. This condition can be avoided by choosing products and materials that contain a set of micronutrients that are balanced for plants.

Macronutrients:
- Primary : N, P, K
- Secondary: S, Ca, Mg

Micronutrients
- Mn, Fe, Mo, B, Cl, Na, Zn, Cu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

The urban myth is that it comes from urine, but in reality it is most often mined from dry lake beds in deserts.

Urea is synthesized - not mined.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Chelate: Some elements of fertilizers are highly reactive in raw form -- e.g., phosphorus.

Only metallic micronutrients are chelated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

an over-abundance of a mineral nutrient -- the most common two are Sulfur and Chlorine, esp. from murate of potash,

Sulfur toxicity practically does not exist.

Richard · 07-03-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtile

Your original post stated potassium with the symbol K in parenthesis. K is the symbol for the element potassium which still exists next to potash in your updated post.

That's true, it is the standard abuse of notation in agricultural publications and products. I have here a 25-lb bag of water soluble fertilizer: on the cover the ad copy says "... the NPK proportions of 15-5-15 are excellent ..." and on the back the Guaranteed Analysis gets the chemistry correct by listing proportions of N, P205, and K20. I have agricultural extension publications from Cal Poly SLO, UC Davis, and UF which discuss requirements for "phosphate (P)" and "potash (K)". They do this because that is what the intended audience (farmers) will understand.

A long time ago I tried to enforce my ideas of strict adherence to notation in the world of mathematics and physics. I especially became frustrated with the abuse of calories, Calories, c, C, kcal, etc. -- especially in biology and dietary publications. I finally gave it all up with a good laugh when a colleague pointed out to me that in dietary publications:

c = calories at the speed of light

adrift · 07-07-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chong

That opening sentence was the whole purpose for the post. It was an appeal to simplify the discussions in layman’s terms rather than to spark additional motions or arguments that only most people in academia will understand. I do not believe that Richard’s initial post was anywhere near as complicated as this is now turning out to be.

It may not show from the postings, but I really appreciate Richard's work to educate people about what they put (or what they should put) on their plants. He also shows them the cost per effective nutrient so they can see when they have a good deal (or more often, when not). So for that I applaud him.

I agree we need to make things simple for the average consumer. And I think intelligent, rational people can discuss how far something can be simplified before it becomes wrong.

I know that people talk about N-P-K on fertilizer and *I* believe they should know that that is a bit of an *oversimplification*. I think it could be said something like, "What is on the label is nitrogen, phosphate and potash. Because the active part of phosphate is the element phosphorus (chemical symbol P), and the active part of potash is potassium (chemical symbol K), some materials discussing fertilizer call this its N-P-K rating."

Just, please don't say K is potash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chong

I don’t know if anybody else actually figures exactly how much to feed their plant like you.

Oh, no worries on that. I don't do any math. I throw in whatever much per gallon and give it to the plants every few weeks when I have the time and when I remember. I'm just providing that for the curious. I'm not collecting the homework for a grade.

Besides, what is the ideal for any plant to take up can really only apply to hydroponics. Most people have *something* already in their soil. Without a soil analysis, whether it is better to put 10-2-10 or 8-3-18 is speculative. Unless someone is competitively engaged in for profit banana production, it is probably good enough to pick something low in phosphorus and high in potash with a moderate nitrogen rating. Don't worry so much about the last decimal point. Like the old homebrew saying, "relax and have a homebrew."

Richard has told people that (almost) anything is better than nothing. So I think we agree on another point.

adrift · 07-07-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

A long time ago I tried to enforce my ideas of strict adherence to notation in the world of mathematics and physics. I especially became frustrated with the abuse of calories, Calories, c, C, kcal, etc. -- especially in biology and dietary publications. I finally gave it all up with a good laugh when a colleague pointed out to me that in dietary publications:

c = calories at the speed of light

When I tell people the square root of -1 is "j" (because "i" is current) they roll their eyes at me.

We must be the life of the parties we attend.

Patty in Wisc · 07-07-2009, 09:28 PM

The following is in the wiki. I find it interesting to see what other members are using, and many of them fruited many healthy bunches! I posted then ('06) that I used MG tomato food - 18-18-21 because it was all I could find w/ higher K. I use Banana Fuel now - 15-5-30 w/ all the micro's.

Members Methods

The Flying Dutchman: Dried Cow Manure and once in a week a liquid fertilizer(7+4+6)
MediaHound: I make a compost mixture with surplus material from the kitchen combined with most all organic waste from the yard. I'm now using use three UCT9.5 compost bins. I also use a variety of packaged commercial fertilizer and micronutrients. Seaweed, liquid fish, composted manure, etc. MediaHound 09:46, 24 April 2007 (EDT)
Patty in Wisc: Tomato food 18+18+21 because it has more K.
Pitangadiego: Triple 16 is cheap and effective
Chong: I find that since bananas are heavy Potassium feeders, any fertilizer that has the K component the highest, the N second, and P the least, would be advantageous since the majority of the banana make-up is Potassium. In any case, I don't think that the "P" component should ever exceed the "K". recommanded-15+10+30 or 15+8+27 E.g.
Joe Real: I use 6+27+27 XB with minors from BEST fertilizer brand. It achieves a nice balance of growth, pup and fruit production.
momoese: I use loads of steer and chicken manure as well as worm castings from my own red wigglers that have taken over the garden. I also use homemade compost and EB-Stone organic plant food 2-3 times a year.
Frankallan: I use aged rabbit manure
Rmplmnz: Compost tea wich is more or less a liquid version of compost. You take your solid compost, and soak it in water and let the mixture sit around for a few hours or a few days. Then you pour the liquid through a screen, or through cheesecloth or something similar to strain out the solid material into a bucket. What you have then is compost tea. Compost tea is great, because it is a very mild, organic liquid fertilizer that provides beneficial live organisms that improve the soil where you use it. It doesn't burn plants like store bought fertilizers can.If you can not find any of the above dump a bag of cow manure in the trash can and fill with water..
Bananimal: I use a custom fertilizer blend of 6-2-12 with minors. And especially important - I apply fert monthly. Up to 3 pounds when the plants are bigger and show real vigor.
FunSoCalTiger: I use a balanced granular slow-release such as Dynamite 13-13-13, Osmocote 14-14-14, Vigoro 17-17-17 or MiracleGro 10-10-10 every couple months or so and at planting. I also use any of several water soluable mixtures at 1-2 times the recommended doseage/frequency such as the balanced Peters Professional or MiracleGro Select 20-20-20 or the MiracleGro Tomato Food 18-18-21 (has slightly more K and also has some Magnesium). I also supplement with Epsom Salt each week to boost the Magnesium content at the rate of 1-2 teaspoon per gallon.
Nanaman: I use about 50% Jungle Growth potting mix, 40% composted cow manure, and about 10% added vermiculite, plus a few handfuls of Pre Plant Plus 7-5-7 organic fert. I fertilize about once a month with whatever I have on hand at the time, some times palm fert., some times 10-10-10, miracle grow, etc... I water them every day, sometimes twice a day if its really hot, which it usually is. In colder climates this mix may hold too.
Richard: 5 lbs of water-soluble 20-5-30 with micronutrients per maturing plant in the ground per year, applied monthly during the growing season.

joseryan · 11-08-2013, 09:35 PM

I just applied N-P-K in my musa saba banana farm here in the Philippines specifically in Davao City.

I just dont have to accept all your recommendations regarding the application of N-P-K because it depends on the age of the banana, time of application and weather condition of my farm.

joseryan · 11-08-2013, 09:46 PM

hi. i have a 17 hectares of musa saba banana here in the Philippines, Davao City.
can you discuss to me your recommendation regarding the right age of the banana plant to apply the N-P-K and the right time of application in a day.

Richard · 11-08-2013, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseryan

hi. i have a 17 hectares of musa saba banana here in the Philippines, Davao City.
can you discuss to me your recommendation regarding the right age of the banana plant to apply the N-P-K and the right time of application in a day.

In the tropics, you can apply per plant or matte net one pound of N when the plants are young, net 1/4 lb P one month prior to bloom, and net 1.5 lb K two weeks prior to bloom. (Tropics = zone 12 and higher.) Note if your N source (or P, or K) is 10% N, then you will need 10 lbs of it to achieve net one pound.

Alternately, you can apply a complete NPK fertilizer with ratios 2:1:3 (e.g. 16-8-24 or 20-10-30) throughout the year so that each plant or matte receives net 1.5 lbs of K.

lmswayne · 11-12-2013, 07:10 PM

My - my- the brains on this page! I am with you Patty Meet you on the porch. After working through all that I think I am A little smarter. But I am in way over my head.
Who new growing bananas was so hard.

07-07-2009, 09:28 PM	#29 (permalink)
Patty in Wisc tropical nut Patty in Wisc's Photo Gallery Zone: 5 Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,115 BananaBucks : 387,834 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,946 Times Was Thanked 2,510 Times in 1,203 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 69 Times	Re: Fertilizers: N-P-K and Quantity The following is in the wiki. I find it interesting to see what other members are using, and many of them fruited many healthy bunches! I posted then ('06) that I used MG tomato food - 18-18-21 because it was all I could find w/ higher K. I use Banana Fuel now - 15-5-30 w/ all the micro's. Members Methods The Flying Dutchman: Dried Cow Manure and once in a week a liquid fertilizer(7+4+6) MediaHound: I make a compost mixture with surplus material from the kitchen combined with most all organic waste from the yard. I'm now using use three UCT9.5 compost bins. I also use a variety of packaged commercial fertilizer and micronutrients. Seaweed, liquid fish, composted manure, etc. MediaHound 09:46, 24 April 2007 (EDT) Patty in Wisc: Tomato food 18+18+21 because it has more K. Pitangadiego: Triple 16 is cheap and effective Chong: I find that since bananas are heavy Potassium feeders, any fertilizer that has the K component the highest, the N second, and P the least, would be advantageous since the majority of the banana make-up is Potassium. In any case, I don't think that the "P" component should ever exceed the "K". recommanded-15+10+30 or 15+8+27 E.g. Joe Real: I use 6+27+27 XB with minors from BEST fertilizer brand. It achieves a nice balance of growth, pup and fruit production. momoese: I use loads of steer and chicken manure as well as worm castings from my own red wigglers that have taken over the garden. I also use homemade compost and EB-Stone organic plant food 2-3 times a year. Frankallan: I use aged rabbit manure Rmplmnz: Compost tea wich is more or less a liquid version of compost. You take your solid compost, and soak it in water and let the mixture sit around for a few hours or a few days. Then you pour the liquid through a screen, or through cheesecloth or something similar to strain out the solid material into a bucket. What you have then is compost tea. Compost tea is great, because it is a very mild, organic liquid fertilizer that provides beneficial live organisms that improve the soil where you use it. It doesn't burn plants like store bought fertilizers can.If you can not find any of the above dump a bag of cow manure in the trash can and fill with water.. Bananimal: I use a custom fertilizer blend of 6-2-12 with minors. And especially important - I apply fert monthly. Up to 3 pounds when the plants are bigger and show real vigor. FunSoCalTiger: I use a balanced granular slow-release such as Dynamite 13-13-13, Osmocote 14-14-14, Vigoro 17-17-17 or MiracleGro 10-10-10 every couple months or so and at planting. I also use any of several water soluable mixtures at 1-2 times the recommended doseage/frequency such as the balanced Peters Professional or MiracleGro Select 20-20-20 or the MiracleGro Tomato Food 18-18-21 (has slightly more K and also has some Magnesium). I also supplement with Epsom Salt each week to boost the Magnesium content at the rate of 1-2 teaspoon per gallon. Nanaman: I use about 50% Jungle Growth potting mix, 40% composted cow manure, and about 10% added vermiculite, plus a few handfuls of Pre Plant Plus 7-5-7 organic fert. I fertilize about once a month with whatever I have on hand at the time, some times palm fert., some times 10-10-10, miracle grow, etc... I water them every day, sometimes twice a day if its really hot, which it usually is. In colder climates this mix may hold too. Richard: 5 lbs of water-soluble 20-5-30 with micronutrients per maturing plant in the ground per year, applied monthly during the growing season. __________________ Got a lite? Patty ____ Patty in Wisc has sadly passed away 9/05/11. We will miss you Patty.

11-08-2013, 09:35 PM	#30 (permalink)
joseryan Location: Davao City, Philippines Name: ryan Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 4 BananaBucks : 3,581 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 0 Times Was Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Fertilizers: N-P-K and Quantity I just applied N-P-K in my musa saba banana farm here in the Philippines specifically in Davao City. I just dont have to accept all your recommendations regarding the application of N-P-K because it depends on the age of the banana, time of application and weather condition of my farm.

11-08-2013, 09:46 PM	#31 (permalink)
joseryan Location: Davao City, Philippines Name: ryan Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 4 BananaBucks : 3,581 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 0 Times Was Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Fertilizers: N-P-K and Quantity hi. i have a 17 hectares of musa saba banana here in the Philippines, Davao City. can you discuss to me your recommendation regarding the right age of the banana plant to apply the N-P-K and the right time of application in a day.

11-12-2013, 07:10 PM	#33 (permalink)
lmswayne Location: Seattle Find me on the map! Zone: 8-9 Name: Linda Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 319 BananaBucks : 7,629 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,753 Times Was Thanked 260 Times in 178 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 412 Times	Re: Fertilizers: N-P-K and Quantity My - my- the brains on this page! I am with you Patty Meet you on the porch. After working through all that I think I am A little smarter. But I am in way over my head. Who new growing bananas was so hard. __________________

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