CCraves

Hey everyone!

So I'm new to the banana community, but was wondering about the Gros Michel after reading an article about the possible future extinction of the Cavendish banana due to a new plague that forms in the soil. Apparently this is what happened in the '50s which led to switching from the tastier Gros Michel to the Philippine's Cavendish.

Why have there not been any major importers bringing back the Gros Michel banana? I know the areas where they had originally grown it for US export are still affected by the Panama disease.

Are they still growing the same version of the plant in Southeast Asia, like Thailand and Vietnam, as well as parts of Africa? If so why have they not been reintroduced to markets.

I know that since bananas are a plant that need to be manually pollinated and that the future of the banana might be bleak unless new selective breeding techniques or GMO versions can out thrive the diseases that are happening. But would't diversifying the market not lead to the same global shortages that happened to the Gros Michel if the same thing eventually happens to the Cavendish.

Thanks for your help!

Nicolas Naranja

1.) The infrastructure is set up to deliver Cavendish bananas. The boxes, the ripening rooms, and the plantations are all set up for Cavendish. Gros Michel was actually shipped as whole stalks.

2.) Gros Michel yields are low. They still get sigatoka, they are more susceptible to blowdown, and just don't have the genetic yield potential of Cavendish.

3.) FHIA-17 and FHIA-23 are hybrids of Gros Michel that don't have a lot of the same limitations, but they have their own issues such as long cycling time and tendency to split.

Cavendish bananas are awesome from the perspective of mechanization and economies of scale.

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Gabe15

It's a rather complex issue, this is a great recent article from people who study bananas (as opposed to pop-media journalism): The trap of extinction stories on bananas : Under the peel | Information and news on bananas from ProMusa

I mostly agree with Nick's answers, except Gros Michel vs. Cavendish yield. It might be true for some clones under certain conditions, but it's really never been a driver of choosing Cavendish over Gros Michel, they are very closely related and relatively equal under good conditions. If Panama Wilt is not an issue, dwarf Gros Michel cultivars are highly desirable and generally more desirable than Cavendish cultivars, and they both get Sigatoka diseases easily. Gros Michel is still grown in large quantities around the world, just not usually for export).

There are some exported to the US and Europe still, just in small amounts and are very speciality.

Basically it comes down to the issue of Panama Wilt Race 1, which is not just in Latin America, but is present almost everywhere bananas are grown to some degree. There are ways to control it and keep plantations relatively clean, but they are costly and can be difficult to implement with the pre-established systems. Any banana cultivar can be grown and exported with enough tinkering of the system, but only very few can come out of that system and still cost under 70 cents/pound at your local grocer and would be able to compete directly with Cavendish. A good example is Manzano (Silk), which is relatively common in US markets, but they are much more expensive than the Cavendish bananas they are typically displayed next to, so end up being more of a novelty experience than an everyday kind of banana.

To grow Gros Michel in large enough quantity to make export feasible in the normal Cavendish-based market requires very large farms, which are then easy to let Panama Wilt get out of hand on. On small, diversified farms, it is not as big of an issue, so Gros Michel are still very common in local markets in the tropics.

Also just to be nit-picky banana nerd; bananas do not require pollination of any kind to set fruit, they are vegetatively parthenocarpic.

All the talk of Panama Wilt really out shines another potential serious headache, which is Banana bunchy top virus (BBTV). It is not present in the Americas at all at this point, and is somewhat more difficult to accidentally introduce compared to Panama Wilt strains, but if that is ever introduced and became established it would very quickly put Panama Wilt Race 4 on the back-burner for export Cavendish problems in Latin America. It turns out Gros Michel cultivars are actually somewhat tolerant to BBTV.

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CCraves

Okay so its more because of the economic infrastructure as a whole is now generally just set up for Cavendish and their uniformity makes them a better product for general consumption?

With the possibility of the new type of Fusarium wilt affecting Cavendish supplies, will there be another shift in banana species in the world market or are GMO's the next wave and final wave to fight off future economy threatening diseases?

CCraves

Are large commercial farms possible without resorting to mono cropping? Could allowing for more diverse production help stop the spread of the Panama Wilt on farms, or at least slow it down?

Like I asked in a former response, what will happen if banana plantations become largely susceptible to BBTV? Is there another banana species that could be looked at to replace the market of mass consumption or is it less likely that the disease will have such a large economic impact?

Sorry, I'm definitely a newb when it comes to agriculture and botany. I might have stated it incorrectly. I had read that cultivated bananas are parthenocarpic, which makes them sterile and unable to produce viable seeds. I also read on farms that they have people rubbing parts of the plant together to I believe create new seeds to grow future crops (though I might be wrong).

Thanks for being nice about my error, and responding to my question with such illumination!

Nicolas Naranja

Gabe, I read in one of my banana books that when the switch to cavendish was made, growers realized that they could increase plant populations and yields went fron 12-15 tons per acre to 30 tons per acre.

At least in my subtropical location, the yield per plant from Williams blows away Gros Michel.

As far as non monocultures go, you still run the risk of having panama disease take out all of your susceptible cultivars. The key to an export oriented Gros Michel plantation would be fresh land and intense phytosanitary procedures. There are also "suppressive" soils but nobody has figured out why they naturally suppress Panama disease.

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PR-Giants

I've never read anything about the Gros Michel and certainly didn't need to, it was obvious before the plants were knee high that yields would be significantly less than that of the Cavendish. Of all the plants I grow, the Gros Michel handled Sigatoka the worst and even with wider spacing the leaf pruning still had to be done much more often.

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Gabe15

That switch was also long ago a lot has changed since then, and yield is a very complex metric. A huge portion of the advancing yield gain for many crops has come from cultivation and post harvest handling system improvements, not just genetic changes in the crop (and of course for banana there has been extremely limited genetic change). Plant to plant, the best Gros Michel clones and the best Cavendish clones are fairly equal. I would hazard to guess that a dwarf Gros Michel cultivar such as 'Cocos' grown with all the modern tricks (tissue cultured plants, frequent replanting, increased plant density, efficient irrigation, good sucker pruning, ample fertility, pest and disease control etc...) competes well with Cavendish in terms of yield. A huge portion of Cavendish fruit is also thrown out because they damage very easy, easier than Gros Michel, that also accounts into the yield tally.

Growing conditions are also very important as you mention, in my experience in Hawaii 'Williams' and 'Cocos' and 'Highgate' are right on par with each other, 80-100lbs/bunch on the first cycle and increasing with good care there after.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

Gabe15

Yes, it's possible, but not at the same extremely and somewhat artificially cheap price they are at now.

The Cavendish export farms in Latin America are very susceptible to BBTV, but there is no BBTV present. There really is no 100% BBTV resistant commercial-quality cultivar discovered or bred yet, but it can be controlled well through stringent management techniques. However, if it is introduced at some point somehow to anywhere in Latin America, it will certainly cause a lot of havoc for awhile before it gets under control.

They are parthenocarpic, and have some (highly varying) degree of sterility, but the parthenocarpy and sterility are not really directly related. A sterile fruit without parthenocarpy is nothing but a pinky-sized bit of skin (no pulp or seed), but a parthenocarpic fruit will be full of pulp regardless of sterility level, it may or may not then also have seed present depending on how fertile it is and if it was pollinated with fertile pollen.

I think the article you must have read was describing the process of banana breeding to create entirely new varieties. The seeds from those fruits are only grown once to get a new plant, if it's a good one, then it is propagated asexually to make plants for fruit production.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.