DoctorSteve

Does anyone out there now anything about the SH (Selected Hybrid) series of bananas that came from FHIA? I came across this page and it appears that they used them in breading somehow. For instance it says that a Goldfinger is a hybrid of Prata Ana and SH-3142. Are these type (SH) fertile in some way?

http://bananas.bioversityinternation...hilippines.pdf

Any help would be great I couldn't find anything on them that talks about how they used them.

Gabe15

Every breeding program has codes for the progeny they create, "SH-" is just part FHIA's personal naming system to keep track of plants. Some of the more promising hybrids were given other names upon release, such as 'FHIA-1', and some were not. It's possible too that some were given to other breeding programs or institutions with just the hybrid code, and then subsequently released without being renamed by FHIA, but very few of these are available to the public, mostly you can just get the prominent hybrids such as FHIA-1, 2, 3, 21 etc...

The varieties with "SH" really do not necessarily have anything in common except that they are creations from FHIA's breeding program.

FHIA's breeding program is primarily based on the creation of improved diploids used as males (based on wild species and diploid landracess) which are then crossed a single time onto triploid landraces, then tetraploid progeny is selected from the final cross. SH-3142 for example is an improved diploid composed of M. acuminata subsp. errans, and 3 different diploid landraces, one being a seed grown selfed 'Pisang Jari Buaya' selection. This was bred mainly for disease resistance, and the 'Prata Ana' was the triploid landrace for fruit quality, with the intent of making an improved Prata-type dessert banana.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

DoctorSteve

Thanks Gabe! I am still reading BREEDING BANANAS FOR DISEASE RESISTANCE FRUIT QUALITY AND YIELD but very slowly. So if I am understanding this right the diploids are fertile males (not forgetting they are hermaphroditic) and the triploid and tetraploid are not? Or is there another reason they used the diploids?

After finding suitable diploids they breed them with triploids. After diploid triploid breading they looked for tetraploid offspring that came from the diploid triploid cross?

Is it possible to bread diploids with tetraploids?

Thanks again Gabe I am glade you are here. I really find all of this stuff very interesting. Even though I am new I don't think most want to delve into it as much as I do. Not that that is a bad thing.

Gabe15

Diploids tend to be male fertile, but this is not a rule. I'm not sure what you are thinking hermaphroditic is in this sense, but for bananas it would mean the basal flowers are hermaphroditic instead of female, I don't think this is what you are referring to. Diploids, triploids or tetraploids can be both male and female fertile, or neither, or some combination of both, usually with some degree of fertility. There is really no rule, it varies greatly depending on the variety.

Yes, in this breeding scheme. But there are other schemes used which have different combination models.

Yes, generally, but it all depends on the exact parents you are using if it will succeed or not.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

DoctorSteve

By hermaphroditic I meant male and female flowers, I guess it is called something else sorry.

They can all be male fertile, female fertile, or both? Ahhhh! Does it have anything to do with them being AA or AB or BA,BB,AAA,AAB............BBBB. I don't know all the combinations yet so if there isn't a BBBB please forgive me I just don't want to type it all out.

I guess if none of those matter as far as fertility is concerned how would one determine if they are fertile or not?

Gabe15

There is no need to be sorry or in need of forgiveness here, its all about learning.

All of those As and Bs are just descriptive of the genomic composition of a cultivar. Alone, they mean nothing in regards to the specific origin and evolution of the cultivar they are describing. Two bananas both having AAA genomes may have had completely separate, non-overlapping evolutionary lines, and thus be very different from one another.

Hermaphroditic in plants refers to the flowers themselves, in which case they have both male and female reproductive parts on the same flowers. When a plant has separate male and female flowers on the same plant, it is monoecious. All bananas are monoecious (or some form of it), though some wild species have functionally hermaphroditic instead of female flowers.

Fertility is usually determined by test crossing with a known very fertile plant, usually a wild Musa acuminata variety. However, it really only matters when doing the actual breeding work, so fertility is also determined by repeatedly making the crosses that are of interest to the breeder and simply seeing if seeds are ever produced.

Some really strange crosses have been produced in the past, so you really never know until you try. Although, of course there are combinations which you can accurately predict will have a higher chance of success than others.

Sterility in bananas is not well understood. There are many reasons for it, many of which occur inside the ovules during meiosis or during the production of the gametes which make direct observation rather difficult. What is known is that there are varying degrees of fertility, and it can also be very unpredictable. Fertility level may also change due to somatic mutation.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

DoctorSteve

I think it would be fun to try out some banana breeding just to see what happens. I guess I will try and find some information on which ones are known to be fertile and then see if I can acquire them. I did find to PDFs that talk about it somewhat maybe I can get some helpful info their. I still need to read them though.

http://bananas.bioversityinternation...rovement94.pdf

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNACK078.pdf

Hey if you ever come across some information that could be useful about banana breading, like which are fertile, let me know.

I did find some information on Yangambi KM5. It is both male and female fertile but all progenies produce abnormal leaves and/or erect and semi erect bunches.
http://musalit.inibap.org/pdf/IN990033_en.pdf

Caloosamusa

I had read that about the KM-5, that is produces erect stalks, sounds like a Fe'i, but the question should be why is that a problem? Does it cause the plant to be vunerable to winds? Its other contributions, nematode and disease resistance, are more important as the problems can be outcrossed, leaving the disease resistance.

Breeding diploids with tetraploids has its advantages but if more than two Bs, or adding up to more than two Bs, the naviruses will present destroying the prodogy or carrying the virus forward.

The progenators I use have very little Bs in them, and the most in a cross is one. I also am trying new wild musa as male prodgenators.

DoctorSteve

Erect or semi-erect bunches does not bother me. Maybe it has something to do with gathering them when they are ready. Or like you said Caloosamusa, maybe it has to do with wind or something. The only thing I was wondering about was the abnormal leaves in its progeny. How abnormal are they, are they abnormal enough to cause the plant to die?


Caloosamusa, it sounds like you have and are currently tinkering with banana breeding. Can you tell us which ones you have tried, which ones worked and which didn't?

Gabe15

With the B genomes and "naviruses", I believe you are referring to Banana Streak Viruses, badnaviruses commonly associated with being integrated into B genomes. Two or more B genomes in a plant has been shown to infer a silencing effect in terms of activation and replication from the integrated sequences.BB, ABB, AABB and ABBB genomes will certainly contain the integrated viral sequences, but activation is inhibited. Also, what is being revealed is that there are many different types and even sequences that are integrated into A genomes. The state of BSV and its relevance to breeding is not entirely understood. Some progeny populations with only one B genome segregate for BSV activation, and of course there are countless AAB landraces which never show BSV activation, so all of the mechanisms and relevance are at this point still very poorly understood. Additionally, there are other possibly integrated, as yet unidentified viruses associated with Musa of which almost nothing is known about them.

Erect bunches are a problem to breeding programs if the bananas they are trying to create do not normally have erect bunches. These programs are trying to improve existing groups of bananas, not make something completely new. They will hold onto these creations most of the time because indeed they may be of use for something else in the future, but they may have many other non-desirable traits for the current breeding aims. If the same resistance can be acquired from a different plant with better traits such as bunch position, then they will use that other different one instead. Breeding programs must always stay balanced between completely experimental breeding and staying within the specific breeding objectives.

For the casual hobbyist, bunch orientation is no big deal. But if breeding a banana for millions of people to rely on as a staple and for farmers to depend on for their livelihoods, bunch orientation, along with many otherwise seemingly non-important issues can become very important. If the hybrid has increased disease resistance, but decreased overall yield due to some other factor, or is for whatever reason not up to par, it is unlikely to be successful within the aims of the breeding program.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

BB73

Hi,

this topic is very interessting and I think some of us hobby growers like to try some breeding through pollination, but all the details are spread around numberous threads and I think there might be some books available which are worth reading.
This book seems to out of print at the moment, but I discovered some others when I searched for "banana breeding" at Amazon.

Maybe some members here could recommend some books which would worth reading if interessted in pollination.

Or maybe we could add a "book list" to the Wiki with comments from members who read the book?

(By the way: If you look for rare books at Amazon, don't try only the Amazon webpage of your own country. I recently bought a book which cost me less than half by ordering it from Amazon.com (USA) then from Amazon's german or UK page. And I'm talking incl. shipping to Greece! This applies specially for used books)

Caloosamusa

DoctorSteve,

No results yet.

As I have six diploid cultivars of Acuminata, four "wild" types, four desirable quadraploids, and others, most with multiple mats in close proximity for pollenation maximization, and ease.

Even when seed is produced, it must be grown out, cross and traits documented, and most of all desirable traits must be present. I started this lifetime project about two years ago. Time will tell.

Thanks Gabe!!

Caloosamusa

On a seperate note, what they are finding by studing the banana genome is that the Hawaiian cultivars that were considered to be "AAB" actually has no balbisiana in it! The "B" portion has not been identified.

I think the Iholena subgroup may need compatable male AA to become fertile. I am going to try.

DoctorSteve

That is exactly what I am thinking Gabe. I don't know what they are looking for as far as an agricultural crop is concerned. I don't even know much about cooking bananas yet so I am leaving that kind of breeding up to the pros. I am mostly hoping to stumble on a yummy banana. I am trying to learn this because I am interested in breeding with carotenoid rich bananas, these.

http://www.islandfood.org/publications/ban_bklt.pdf

Good luck let me know if you ever get interesting results. Mine will probably be lifetime as well.

That is a good idea a book list plus links to PDF files. I have been finding a plethora of information online in the form of PDFs. Find out how to do it and let me know. I have lots of links.

Gabe15

What is your source of this information? There is tons of genetic tests that have been done on these bananas, and I have never seen a reference for what you are talking about. I'm not saying you are wrong, but please do show exactly where you got this information from. Be careful with information like that because many people read this forum and information spreads quickly, even if its wrong.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.