Bully

Can anyone tell me what variety is the American Goldfinger? Thanks

cincinnana

Here is a forum link which can help.
American Goldfinger FHIA 1 taste report with pics

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Bully

Thank you. I read that earlier, and that is why I am confused. So Agristarts GF is the real deal of or something else? If so, anyone know what it is? Thank you

edwmax

As stated in the above link from Cincinnana, the Goldfinger is a FHIA-01 which is a hybrid cross. More info here: FHIA-01 | News, knowledge and information on bananas

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robguz24

I've gotten it twice from Agristarts. Both different from each other and neither are the real thing. The first one is a very weak plant which often rots before the fruit are mature. When they do mature, often they don't fill out properly. They taste similar to Brazilians but inferior. Perhaps they are true goldfinger off types that have been perpetuated.

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Gabe15

I believe Rob is correct, based on what I've seen of these plants they are 'Goldfinger' off-types. It is commonly assumed that when plants are tissue cultured, all the resulting plants will be identical, but this is not so, especially if certain checks aren't put into place. The rate of mutation for tissue cultured plantlets can be relatively high, and in normal procedure you can expect a small amount of variation when looking at a large number of plants from a single batch, the exact reasons/mechanisms for this are not completely understood, but it has been capitalized on as a form of breeding/selection.

In a well run banana tissue culture lab, a single field grown sucker which has been verified as true-to-type is initiated into tissue culture and then subcultured approximately 5 times, meaning the tissue pieces are divided and allowed to regenerate 5 times, and then they are all transitioned to rooted plantlets, hardened off, and then can be planted. At that point (in reality this is done on a parallel and continuously rolling basis) a new field grown verified true-to-type sucker is selected and initiated and the process starts all over. Depending on the technique used, each batch may then only produce 10,000 or so plants before it is deliberately discontinued.

It is possible to keep subculturing the same stock beyond 5 times, but what happens is that since the multiplication rate is exponentially increasing with each subculture, you start to run the risk of unintentionally propagating a ton of plants from a single mutated one, and oftentimes without any way of knowing until they are field planted and evaluated, or sold to growers who wonder why their plants don't look right or aren't performing as expected. Rarely, these mutations can result in a positive change, but most often they are deleterious.

At least for bananas, there are multiple pieces of evidence I've seen over the years to suggest that Agri-Starts does not often initiate new field-verified lines of cultivars they offer, indicating they likely have the same stock in culture which they continue to regenerate plants from.

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Bully

Thank you Gabe. That would explain why there seems to be multiple versions of Goldfinger. The Goldfinger that you were growing at UH, that was from the Gene Bank, correct? What happened to all of the plants in the lab that you had UH. You graduated and moved to the Big Island right?

Island Brah

I literally was talking to a buddy about this and was very interested and quite confused myself. Thanks for the detailed explanation per usual, Gabe!

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meizzwang

As far as I know, the only difference between the original TARS FHIA 1 goldfinger and the FHIA 1 American goldfinger (which, as mentioned above, is suspected to be a mutated form of the original clone) is the male inflorescence shape. Here's the male inflorescence on the american goldfinger, notice how elongated it is:



And here's the male inflorescence on the TARS FHIA-1 Goldfinger. Notice this looks more like a top that you spin during Hanukkah. Stole this pic from Bananas.org, but since it's only being used here and for the purpose of educating the public, figured it's not copyright infringement


In the description of FHIA-1, it's stated that the male bracts only open one at a time (see pics above as examples), but here's my american goldfinger with 2 bracts open at the same time:

However, that could very well be environmental since there hasn't been many studies on phenotypic variance between cold weather grown bananas versus the same exact clone grown in the tropics.

Another mutation I've seen on the american goldfinger FHIA 1 (which doesn't seem stable and only showed up on the original TC water sprouts) are a few fingers fused here and there:

From observations of multiple blooms, the first ratoon showed no fused fingers, so I suspect this mutation might not be "asexually heritable."


Getting the original explant aseptic (ie. meristem from a sucker) in vitro is challenging, so this is why you don't see companies like agristarts only doing 5 subcultures like Gabe mentioned. Depending on how clean the starting material is, even experienced TC'ers may have to do several attempts before they get one clean explant, so this might explain why agristarts does not follow the "small batch" procedures. Once you have clean starting material, it's a piece of cake to subculture it and make millions. However, what strikes me as odd is how only FHIA-1 seems to be having this possible mutation issue. I surmise many other clones of bananas have been mass propagated by agristarts the same way (ie. cloning everything from one explant and not multiple explants) yet you don't hear about orinoco, namwah, rajapuri, etc. having significant genetic changes such as flower shape,etc. The only things reported is a dwarf reverts back to normal height, but dwarfism is probably a less stable a trait as inflorescence shape. Either that or the grower reporting height reversals were misinterpreting environmental factors that affect height (ie. TC water sprouts tend to bloom at a much shorter height for some varieties than the first ratoon).

Another possibility that many don't consider is that the original starting material used by agristarts could have been a sibling to FHIA-1 or even better yet, a NO-ID seedling or accidental cross contamination with a different male pollen donor. The only people who can confirm this suspicion are the original suppliers of the plant material to agristarts and those who can do a DNA test to compare the two. Generally speaking, the most common mutations in plants are pigment related and deformities in either the roots or shoots (ie. double flowers, extra set of sepals, no fruit, bigger fruit, extra set of petals, extra organs, deformed leaves, etc). Having the male inflorescence change shape is very anomalous and not commonly seen in the plant world, although it might be more common with TC bananas.....challenge is, not many banana cultivars are mass tissue cultured.

Gabe: have you seen verified offtypes produce different flower shapes in other banana cultivars?

Bully

That totally looks like different varieties. Gabe, your thoughts on these pictures.

robguz24

I think the differences are beyond simply the male bud. The fruit length, overall shape, bunch size are all smaller in the off type. It's certainly possible that "American Goldfinger" is actually any number of different off types. Locally from the tissue culture supplier Novelty Greens I have 3 distinct Goldfingers. One has more elongated fruit like the true one, but male bud isn't so squat. It's the best of the 3. The other 2 look the same with fruit more like a Dwarf Brazilian. One variant has a strong subacid taste, while the other has almost none. They're both quite good. The first Agristarts one is worse in every regard and most don't make it to maturity. I finally have another Agristarts one acquired more recently that seems more vigorous than the first, but I've yet to taste the fruit. I have at least 5 distinct Goldfingers and none are the real thing! All of mine lack a completely clean rachis like the true Goldfinger and some it's closer to a messy rachis as in Dwarf Brazilian.

Below is my latest Agristarts Goldfinger that should be ready to harvest soon.

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meizzwang

thanks for the insights Rob and wow, that looks very different! Those persistent bracts make it look like it's not even FHIA-1 whatsoever because it has been shown that both the american goldfinger and original goldfinger don't have persistent bracts regardless of environmental conditions (ie. in cool, semi-tropical, and tropical climates). However, that doesn't discount the possibility that the clone you have has mutated in vitro and went back to having persistent bracts. Your experience makes this whole FHIA-1 mutant line much more complicated, sounds like there's multiple forms of mutations.

With regards to finger size, I think that could be genetic, but for sure, in many cases, it's greatly environmental. I had a rajapuri, for example, that had relatively large fingers right when the flowers opened (this was the TC watersprout that flowered), but the first ratoon has fingers perhaps 1/2 the size even though the plant has more leaves and has a bigger P-stem.

Tytaylor77

Also remember one of the parents of FHIA-01 Goldfinger is Dwarf Brazilian. Persistent bracts could be reverting back to more like it.

I am growing my TC agristarts (acquired maybe 3 years ago) GF side by side with my USDA Tars GF. Right from the beginning the TC GF is outgrowing the USDA one. Still in the lead to this day. I truly hope they taste the same because my TC GF taste is hard to beat. I have tried quite a few and it is still my top favorite. I have had friends say the TC version taste very similar to SH-3640 also. I'm excited to compare taste there also.

Thank you Gabe and Rob for the great info! I also agree it is an off-type from TC-ing.

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Gabe15

I moved to the Big Island but then moved on from there, and most of my collection was left behind on Oahu, or given to Rob (robguz24) and a couple other friends there. The 'Goldfinger' I was growing was from the ITC international banana genebank, and it was true to type.

I'm now living back in HI and will start to establish my collection again soon.

I don't believe this is the cause, bananas are actually relatively easy to initiate as you can severely sterilize the outer surface of a pared down shoot, and then reduce it from there. I used to work in a banana tissue culture lab, and would initiate my own plants on a routine basis, and it was not very difficult. I've also tissue cultured other plants (roses, sweetpotato, carrot), and when you don't have a protected meristem as you do in banana, those can be difficult. I think it more comes down to lack of protocol or awareness it's even a problem. Additionally, their market is largely hobbyists in the end, if the bulk of their business was selling direct to fruit producers, I'm sure they would be getting more serious about keeping things in check.

Some varieties are more prone to mutating in culture than others, and I have definitely seen other off-types come out of their stock.

Here is one from years ago: 'Hua Moa' freakazoid sport

This could also be one: Why my Pitogo flowers are dropping?

There's a chance the wrong plant was propagated, but there is no chance it would have been an accidental NO-ID seedling. 'FHIA-01' came from a breeding program, and was only released after decades of work, it's hard work to get the seedlings in the first place, so there are rarely accidents, much less ones that make it out of the program.


No, not specifically, but there is no reason it is not possible.


Well, that is the real question here. At some point, off-types become different and new varieties, so maybe it's a matter of perspective.

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Gabe15

Here is a guide to off-types in (mostly) Cavendish. It's not totally comprehensive, but covers a lot of common mutations.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwJ...ew?usp=sharing

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Island Brah

I couldn't imagine having an edible type flower in my zone and it turned out to have runt bunch

Awesome read, Gabe! Thank you

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meizzwang

great info Gabe, thanks for sharing those links too! that one puerto rican dwarf plantain mutation looks like a Strelitzia sp plant (aka birds of paridise)! incredible. Great to see it has been confirmed that a messy rachis/bract rententin is a known mutation.

With regards to getting to the bottom of this FHIA-1 American goldfinger mutant, I wonder if there is a lab that we can send material to verify it is indeed a mutant and not just some other cultivar that was mixed up?

I have also tissue cultured bananas at UC Davis with ease, but we were using PPM in the mix, so it was hard to interpret if they were just very easy to get aseptic, or if the addition of PPM to the media was keeping contaminants at bay. This method would work for small batches, but if you are going to do the agristarts method of using only one explant, it probably would contaminate somewhere down the line. I also tissue cultured vanilla planifolia the same way with great ease. No elaborate method was needed: we used tween 20 and 10% bleach. all tissue burned by the bleach was peeled/chopped off and then dipped into a diluted, pre-autoclaved PPM solution before being placed in vitro. A researcher was trying really hard to get some species bananas into Hawaii for breeding purposes, and the only way to lawfully do so was to get them invitro first.

Gabe15

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PR-Giants

I've collected quite a few of these AG-01 bananas over the years and haven't noticed any mutations yet. They all still have the same messy rachis of the original stock and it was probably just a misidentified banana prior to tissue culturing. They've been aware of the problem for several years and probably have already corrected it.

Harvested a small AG-01 today.



FHIA-01

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