meizzwang

I bought what was sold to me as Ice Cream or Blue Java from Greenearth Publishing Co in 2014. After several discussions on this forum and based on all other people's experience, this plant is very likely a namwah of some sort, and since mine is blooming at around 6', it's probably a dwarf variant. Aside from other people's experience with greenearth publishing Co, other key indicators that this is likely a dwarf namwah is the exceptionally fat and thick p-stem near the base (EDIT: Surprise! It's not Dwarf Namwah! We'll continue to photo-document the flower and fruits until a proper ID is established). No other variant that I'm currently growing has such a thick p-stem at such a low height. It's also supposed to be cold hardy, although my plant did get frost burn from 30F temps last winter. The P-stem was unaffected.

I thought I'd share my experience with this plant from start to finish (with the hope that I get to the finish line!)

Here's the plant in the beginning of August 2015. This is after a complete year of growth, it was really slow growing for me, the TC'ed start took a long time to get out of that juvenile stage:



However, once it was established, it started taking off. This was taken at the end of August, 2015, after a few weeks of great warm weather:




Here it is a month and a half later, it's the second plant from the top, photos taken 10/10/15:



And here it is 11/8/15. Again, it's the second matt from the top:



And after experiencing 30F temps, here it is February of 2016. Notice how most of the leaves were chopped off; it looks like one or two leaves were kept. The unknown subject plant is the matt below the "stump" that has no leaves whatsoever. Notice how the p-stem was completely unharmed, so I didn't have to cut it down:



Here it is on 6/17/16, not the best pic, but starting from the bottom, it's the fourth clump:


Here it is July 8th, 2016, it's the plant right in the middle of the photo, to the right of the baby variegated Aeae plant:


and now here it is this morning, photos taken 10/26/16:



Some pics of the pups and p-stem:


Close up of the p-stem:


It was kinda sad to see this thing with a flag leaf so late in the season, but good news is the first ratoon will likely bloom in early spring next year so if this one doesn't make it thru the winter, there's still hope next year:




To be continued as things progress!

37.667910

Good luck.
I'm hoping my dwarf orinoco goes dormant soon, as it looks really close to flowering as well.

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venturabananas

The petiole canals do not look right for Dwarf Namwah -- or any ABB variety. Can you post a close up of them?

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meizzwang

That would be cool if this isn't dwarf Namwah! I'll snap some photos and post them soon! Just out of curiosity: I always have seen the term "petiole canal" used in this forum, but in one of the FHIA keys, they refer to what's called a "petiole channel". Do these two terms mean the same exact thing, or do they refer to different parts of the petiole?

venturabananas

From what I've seen, "petiole canal" and "petiole channel" are used to mean the same thing.

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campngolf

Your crop looks very healthy. I too am in NorCal 9b and seeing your crop gives me hope that I may someday get some edible fruit. I'm new to growing bananas and only have a few, sickly TCs right now.

Where are you in NorCal? I'm near the capital city.

meizzwang

HI Campngolf,

I'm located on the Peninsula, south of San Francisco. You probably get significantly warmer summers, which means if it doesn't freeze so hard during the winter, you can get your plants to fruiting size and maturity much quicker than I can. Here in Northern California, TC starts typically take 2-3 years before they flower, and they're hard to keep alive the first winter. If you succeed to get them past that seedling stage, they grow like weeds.

Keep in mind, acquiring the right variety means everything if you want your banana to fruit up here. I grew a Dwarf Cavendish for more than a decade and it still hasn't flowered! Also, growing TC starts are like rolling the dice if you ordered from Wellsprings garden, Greenearth publishing, or Florida Hill Nursery aka FAKE Hill Nursery:very few, if any, will turn out to be what you ordered. Lastly, it can be a daunting task to get them properly ID'ed by experts, even when you have fruit hanging on them!

Speaking of which, Mark:here's some pictures of the petiole Canals:






Here's a shot of one of the p-stems, the internode length seems a bit longer than your "type specimen" photo of dwarf namwah. Also, the plant that's flowering was the original TC water sprout, which typically are much shorter compared to the first and second ratoon:



Flowering TC watersprout on left, first ratoon on right:

venturabananas

That is definitely NOT Dwarf Namwah. It is either an AAB or an AAAB.

How tall is the p-stem of the one that is flowering?

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meizzwang

That's amazing and exciting, can't wait to see the flowers! Gosh, it wouldn't be surprising if this turned out to be rajapuri, which is an AAB.... Whatever it is, it's a proven cold tolerant variety. P stem of the one flowering appears to be around 6' tall, but for the record, I'll say it could be up to a maximum of 7.5' (I eyeballed it this time)

Now comes the challenge of proper ID, fingers crossed I'll keep this flower alive this winter.

campngolf

Thanks for the detailed reply Meizzwang. Yeah, I jumped into this nana thing on a fluke and got my TCs from a Florida operation. Can't even remember which one. If I had it to do over I would have researched more here and probably got pups from a member. Live and learn.

I definitely get hotter summers here. In fact, I'm a little worried the heat may hinder fruiting, provided I can even get some plants to grow that long. I am encouraged by the fact I know of several others in the area that have successfully grown bananas in this area to fruiting stage.

I'll keep my fingers crossed on my TCs but will not hold my breath. In the Spring, I'll probably look at getting some pups, I've even seen some on CL so whatever varieties those are may be better acclimated to my area.

Anyway, I'm excited to add some bananas to my garden and see what happens.

Camp

bananimal

[quote=meizzwang;299530]HI Campngolf,

"I'm located on the Peninsula, south of San Francisco."

I'd be concerned about the little Ae Ae at the top in shade. What are your temp ranges and duration?

meizzwang

[quote=bananimal;299544]Well, the hope is that it's now big enough to tough it out this winter, the aeae is significantly bigger compared to the first photo of it above that was taken in July 2016. For reference, it's the shortest plant to the left, this pic was taken 10/26/16:


Interestingly, it doesn't have much variegation going on anymore, but this is presumably environmental and not genetic. While I don't plan on protecting the other banana plants this winter (except for bunches that are currently developing), I'm debating creating a little enclosure around the aeae using greenhouse plastic. There are rails up top that will work perfectly to create a makeshift enclosure. I think if I can keep the ground dry when it gets 32F or below and surround this thing with plastic, I might even be able to save the leaves....but the conservative hope is to merely keep the p-stem from rotting.

meizzwang

okay, some new photos of the developing flower. We've had an unseasonably warm November, and today it's supposed to be 77F (25C) today! Normally, our daytime highs this time of year are usually in the mid to low 60's (near 15C). Photos taken 11/10/16:







This flower bud is actually pretty darn big considering how relatively small the plant is:


And an overview pic of the plant, it's the second clump from the left:

meizzwang

We had an unusual heatwave, it was 77F (25C) a few days ago! Normally, it's pretty cold by now. This unusual warm weather has been quite a boon for the banana plants.

The flowers have officially opened. Photos of this unknown variety taken 11/14/16, can anyone verify the Id? If you tell me Dwarf cavendish I'm ready to chop the whole thing down now











Despite coming from a relatively small and short plant, the bloom is larger than my biggest american goldfinger flower, which is from a plant that is about 1.5x the size:


and plant overview:this was the first misty morning we've had in a long time:

Tytaylor77

Yellow female flowers could be dwarf cav. Don't start chopping yet. It could be a lot of other varieties also.

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meizzwang

Yeah, and flower color is so variable based on temperature, light intensity, soil pH, etc. I recently added only P and K, so my guess is that the pH went up drastically before the flowers opened, which could explain why they appear so yellow. Some more photos of the flowers, photos taken 11/16/16 and 11/21/16. Not much has happened since it's really getting cold up here, our highs are in the low 60's and we even had a night in the high 30's a few days ago.

Indiviual fingers at this stage of development are longer than my biggest american goldfinger at the same exact stage. Notice the flowers are getting slightly darker in color:


And here they are 5 days later:







Overview of the flower bud. If this was summer, we'd know by now whether or not this was rajapuri, but at this rate, it'll be a while before the inflorescence fully opens:

meizzwang

some updated photos of this "not namwah" cultivar. Still not developed enough to tell if it's rajapuri for sure, things are slower than a snail's pace now that it's extra cold.


On a slight tangent, I'm determined to get aeae to fruit up here, so I covered the whole thing with greenhouse plastic. Now, with zero threat of overwatering and zero damage so far being exposed to temps in the high 30's, I'm confident it'll get through this winter just fine. Anyhow, I'm bringing up this Aeae plant because the "enclosure" just happened to be big enough to sneak in the entire inflorescence of my "not namwah":



Whatever cultivar this is, the flower is really beautiful. Here I am standing inside the makeshift enclosure. Nice spot to be on rainy days:





Some of the hands were exposed to cold rain, and there seems to be some browning at the tips of the fingers. hope I covered it in time...it was really easy to knick off the dead flowers at the tips:



Flower color is very deceiving. These looked almost pure yellow, but as they developed, they turned pretty red:


Still more hands developing. BTW, the first hand has 34 fingers, this bud is massive:

meizzwang

quick update on the "not namwah and possibly rajapuri": we had a heavy rainstorm followed by 2 nights with freezing temperatures (30F or -1.1C). the woodchips in the yard, as well as some patches of grass had frost on it. Now that the frost has past (for the time being), our day temps sometimes don't go above 50F (10C) and lows are about 36F( 2.2C) on average if I had to guess.

After the heavy rain dried out, I made an enclosure, and about a week later, all of the leaves started to develop little brown spots. The cold rain seems to have damaged the leaves, but the spots don't seem to be killing the leaves...yet.

What I learned is exposure to cold and wet rain is a no-no for bananas that just started to fruit in the winter. If you cover them before the rain, I think you'll have a chance of keeping them alive. However, if you don't, they'll look a little bruised at first, but over the next few weeks of very cold weather, either fungi or necrosis from the physical damage caused by cold rain will kick in. I thought that after covering them with greenhouse plastic, everything would be safe and they'd have a good chance of developing normally, but to make things even more stressful, the plant only gets about 2 hours of direct sunlight a day during this time of year. To give you perspective, these are in blasting full sun almost all day during the summer!

What do you think, do these have a chance, or are they going to eventually rot? Photos taken 12/22/16:


Even the hands that were fully protected from the start of their development are starting to get small black spots. The soil under the shelter is dry, but i think due to the cold, stagnant air, some sort of fungus is growing on all the leaves and it's spreading to these fingers. Hopefully, its a non-virulent fungus that just looks bad but doesn't actually cause the fingers to rot:



This hand was exposed to harsh rains. No idea if these will make it, but with my american goldfinger that flowered in late October, I already had some fingers rot:


Newer hands don't look as bad, but the spots are starting. Not all of the hands have opened yet!



Doesn't that second hand from the top (well, technically the third hand from the top) look dubious?



On a side note:the american goldfinger bunches that bloomed in July are in perfect condition and were completely unharmed by the rain and cold so far!

JBijl

sorry to hear I hope for you that the damage isn't too bad,Time will tell.

venturabananas

I think the prognosis for the bunch is not good, but we'll just have to wait and see.

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