Banana pups

Tomsamba · 08-22-2009, 06:48 PM

Have any studies been done with relation to the formation of pups? fertilizer? timing applications of fertilizer? soil types? ph? water? hours of sun?
Just curious, been trying to figure out while some pup hard and others not so much...

rscotth · 08-23-2009, 09:25 AM

Ya know- that is a very good question.

Example: I read all the time from some really experienced people to not fertilize a freshly planted banana. There is one guy who posted here lately that had a not so good looking IC and it obviously has a mag deficiency and one guy says: Do not and I repeat do not fertilize this banana for basically months. If theres a defecicncy feed the thing- right.

I fertilize mine as soon as they hit the ground and they are almost twice the size of my neighbor's (not to mention one of his died) that thinks it is voo doo to do that. Oh yeah the DC that was very sickly and yellow is now throwing out a pup.

I really shouldn't complain since I was given the DC from the same neighbor that won't fertilize a newly planted banana

. I am not going to argue with my neighbor, a self proclaimed botonist and agritulture teacher since I am a lowly mechanical engineer and don't know any better but not afraid to go against the grain if I feel there is a better way.

chong · 08-23-2009, 05:44 PM

Hello Mr. Bob,

Well, it's great to hear from another mechanical engineer, since I am a lowly mechanical engineer, myself. Looks like you're doing everything right with your banana plant.

Anyway, to address your question, most gardeners will tell you not to fertilize right after transplanting, as you've already pointed out. This is a rule of thumb and generally correct, but is not a do or die practice. The reason for this advise is that it assumes that the soil that you are planting in has just enough nutrients to support the formation and development of the plant's roots.

When emerging roots grow out they use up the available nutrients in its immediate vicinity and is encourage to grow and spread out in search of more nutrients throughout the pot or planting area. A high concentration of fertilizer, such as in normal periodic application of fertilizer in established plants, will likely burn the starter roots of any plant. However, the use of starter fertilizer solutions, which have very low concentration, is also recommended by many gardening experts. I happen to be one that believe in using these starter solutions, although I do not use them on all my transplants.

If a plant were to be transplanted without any injury to its roots, assuming that there might be an obvious deficiency from its previous container, there is no reason why you cannot apply the nutrient that you think it needs. However, even then, you probably still need to take it easy on the Nitrogen and Phosphorus components initially. I would think that if there is damage to the main roots, that it would be overly risky to fertilize the plant as you would normally.

Tomsamba · 08-23-2009, 05:56 PM

What's this got to do with proliferation or non-proliferation of pups? Does this mean if you fertilize correctly you get more pups?

chong · 08-23-2009, 07:39 PM

I was addressing Mr. Bob's comments. Sorry to digress. To address your question, I have read somewhere in this forum that the regular applications of a solution containing seaweed or kelp extract can help in pup production and it also helps in root development in newly transplanted plants. Try doing a search for "seaweed and kelp". Do not include the word "fertilizer" because you will get you quite a lot of threads that may not have anything to do with the two subjects.

Gabe15 · 08-24-2009, 05:12 AM

As far as varietal differences go, there are certain varieties which pup a lot more than others or at different times. This is due to the control of the hormones in the plant which allow suckering occur. Some varieties display what is called an inhibited suckering habit, in this habit the suckers do not grow very much (or at all) until after flowering has taken place on a first generation plant. Other varieties are uninhibited and all of the buds (of which there is one created for each leaf produced, standard botanical science) grow freely and the plants can form thick mats before the first generation even flowers. Of course there are many different habits in between these 2 extremes. The genetic potentials of some varieties will never be like those of others, so some varieties will never sucker as much as others even if they are very well taken care of.

The best way to initiate the growth of more pups is cut back the main shoot and damage the meristem. This breaks the apical dominance and stops the flow of auxin from the meristem to the buds which inhibits the growth of pups, when apical dominance is broken the buds can grow freely into pups.

Tomsamba · 08-24-2009, 05:24 AM

Hmmm that make sense...it's genetic unless you stress the main shoot at which point it starts to pup...prehistoric stress response to insure proliferation of the species...is that a correct summation?

rscotth · 08-24-2009, 10:32 AM

Thanks Chong- it's good to hear someone explain the thought process behind that idea. I was raised growing hardwoods and the mentality was to fertilize with the transplant of a new seedling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsamba

What's this got to do with proliferation or non-proliferation of pups? Does this mean if you fertilize correctly you get more pups?

Exactly- that was the whole point of the post in response to your question. I even added a picture of the DC with a pup after two months. Like Gabe mentioned it could be specific to what the DC does naturally or could have the fertilizer have helped? I think so since I planted the same starter plants in the same general area at the same time and produced a happier healthier plant that now has pups.

Gabe15 · 08-24-2009, 12:02 PM

Here is an example photo showing some different growth and suckering habits.

The plants from left to right are: 'Obino l'Ewai' (AAB, Plantain), 'Pisang Jari Buaya' (AA), 'Tango' (AA) and 'Pama' (AA).

'Obino l'Ewai' is not happy, and it never has been for some reason, so that may be why its displaying an inhibited sucker habit. The plant seems to grow fine, but it always looks like it has a severe nutrient difficiency even though the other 24 plants in the same area look fine. If you look closely (or click on the photo and see it full size), you will see a few small suckers which are not growing much.

'Pisang Jari Buaya' is a free suckering variety, and it has formed a fair size mat even before its first flowering event. I had previously removed 2-3 suckers a few months ago on it, and I didn't count how many there are right now but it has a lot.

'Tango' is healthy and happy and also displaying a very inhibited suckering habit. It is currently fruiting, and has about 4 suckers, but none are growing much. When the fruit is harvested, the suckers should start to grow normally again.

'Pama' is the runt of the bunch, it gets the same care as the others, but just doesn't seem to like the environment as much, either that or it is just naturally a very slow grower in any condition. But I guess it makes up for it with its incredibly bright red pseudostem and petioles.

This example is just to show how different varieties can react under the same conditions, so if you are treating all of your bananas the same, and some are out performing others and you are upset by it, consider that it may be completely natural. The varieties available on the market today come form many different climates and growing conditions, so it is normal to see differences in growth when they are all brought together.

LilRaverBoi · 08-24-2009, 12:13 PM

Thanks for the great information, Gabe! I guess my question for the original poster is this: why are you concerned about this information? Is this just to satisfy your own curiosity for knowledge on the topic or are you trying to maximize/minimize pup production in your plants. For example, if you want large mats of plants, want to grow new pups to separate to either sell/grow elsewhere/trade, etc. Just wondering whether this is a 'just wondering' question or if there is some desired reason for learning about it.

Don't worry...I'm not trying to question your motives or anything....just think the future discussion could be more tailored to your needs if you had a particular purpose in mind for such information...that's all.

Tomsamba · 08-24-2009, 01:44 PM

Why did I want to know? Mostly because I don't know spit about guineos or platanos and I now have like 27 different kinds in my yard. I really don't figure I can know too much about them. Where I live it's all wives tales, superstition and my mothers cousin was a jibaro who raised lots of guineos....

LilRaverBoi · 08-24-2009, 01:47 PM

Okay, so a general quest for knowledge then. Fair enough! Just trying to help you get the best information you can!

chong · 08-24-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe15

Thanks for the photo, Gabe. I love it. Now I am homesick!

sunfish · 07-22-2013, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomsamba

Have any studies been done with relation to the formation of pups? fertilizer? timing applications of fertilizer? soil types? ph? water? hours of sun?
Just curious, been trying to figure out while some pup hard and others not so much...

BUMP

Nicolas Naranja · 07-22-2013, 10:12 PM

I have noticed that njalipoovan and baloy sucker a lot.

pisang raja, dwarf namwah and gros michel are similar in their habit.

The plantains including hua moa seem to wait until near flowering to sucker

Pisang klotek doesnt sucker much

fhia 1, fhia 17 and fhia 18 seem to take forever to sucker. I do a lot of corm divisions with those guys.

From a fruit production angle, I dont want many suckers. From a nursery angle, I want them by the dozen.

caliboy1994 · 07-23-2013, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chong

Hello Mr. Bob,

Well, it's great to hear from another mechanical engineer, since I am a lowly mechanical engineer, myself. Looks like you're doing everything right with your banana plant.

Anyway, to address your question, most gardeners will tell you not to fertilize right after transplanting, as you've already pointed out. This is a rule of thumb and generally correct, but is not a do or die practice. The reason for this advise is that it assumes that the soil that you are planting in has just enough nutrients to support the formation and development of the plant's roots.

When emerging roots grow out they use up the available nutrients in its immediate vicinity and is encourage to grow and spread out in search of more nutrients throughout the pot or planting area. A high concentration of fertilizer, such as in normal periodic application of fertilizer in established plants, will likely burn the starter roots of any plant. However, the use of starter fertilizer solutions, which have very low concentration, is also recommended by many gardening experts. I happen to be one that believe in using these starter solutions, although I do not use them on all my transplants.

If a plant were to be transplanted without any injury to its roots, assuming that there might be an obvious deficiency from its previous container, there is no reason why you cannot apply the nutrient that you think it needs. However, even then, you probably still need to take it easy on the Nitrogen and Phosphorus components initially. I would think that if there is damage to the main roots, that it would be overly risky to fertilize the plant as you would normally.

Would this apply to organic fertilizer too? I planted a pup and put down a layer of chicken manure in the soil that I put it in. Would that be fine?

Jose263 · 07-23-2013, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caliboy1994

Would this apply to organic fertilizer too? I planted a pup and put down a layer of chicken manure in the soil that I put it in. Would that be fine?

Was that chicken poop fresh or composted - raw chicken poop is pretty hot for young plants.

caliboy1994 · 07-23-2013, 11:33 PM

It's fresh, but it's just above the corm. It's decaying now and getting all slimy. I can rake it away and then put it back when it decays a bit more.

08-22-2009, 06:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tomsamba Another banana loving git Tomsamba's Photo Gallery Location: Gurabo, Puerto Rico Find me on the map! Zone: 11-12 Name: Tomsamba Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 85 BananaBucks : 36,513 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 10 Times Was Thanked 35 Times in 18 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Banana pups Have any studies been done with relation to the formation of pups? fertilizer? timing applications of fertilizer? soil types? ph? water? hours of sun? Just curious, been trying to figure out while some pup hard and others not so much...

08-23-2009, 09:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
rscotth rscotth's Photo Gallery Location: Palm Coast Find me on the map! Zone: 9 Name: Bob- "the builder" Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 86 BananaBucks : 53,023 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 77 Times Was Thanked 114 Times in 34 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 39 Times	Re: Banana pups Ya know- that is a very good question. Example: I read all the time from some really experienced people to not fertilize a freshly planted banana. There is one guy who posted here lately that had a not so good looking IC and it obviously has a mag deficiency and one guy says: Do not and I repeat do not fertilize this banana for basically months. If theres a defecicncy feed the thing- right. I fertilize mine as soon as they hit the ground and they are almost twice the size of my neighbor's (not to mention one of his died) that thinks it is voo doo to do that. Oh yeah the DC that was very sickly and yellow is now throwing out a pup. I really shouldn't complain since I was given the DC from the same neighbor that won't fertilize a newly planted banana . I am not going to argue with my neighbor, a self proclaimed botonist and agritulture teacher since I am a lowly mechanical engineer and don't know any better but not afraid to go against the grain if I feel there is a better way. __________________ Last edited by rscotth : 08-24-2009 at 10:33 AM.

08-23-2009, 05:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
chong Senior Member chong's Photo Gallery Location: Seattle, WA Find me on the map! Zone: 8-9 Name: Chong Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,851 BananaBucks : 100,639 Feedback: 6 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1,309 Times Was Thanked 1,702 Times in 759 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 991 Times	Re: Banana pups Hello Mr. Bob, Well, it's great to hear from another mechanical engineer, since I am a lowly mechanical engineer, myself. Looks like you're doing everything right with your banana plant. Anyway, to address your question, most gardeners will tell you not to fertilize right after transplanting, as you've already pointed out. This is a rule of thumb and generally correct, but is not a do or die practice. The reason for this advise is that it assumes that the soil that you are planting in has just enough nutrients to support the formation and development of the plant's roots. When emerging roots grow out they use up the available nutrients in its immediate vicinity and is encourage to grow and spread out in search of more nutrients throughout the pot or planting area. A high concentration of fertilizer, such as in normal periodic application of fertilizer in established plants, will likely burn the starter roots of any plant. However, the use of starter fertilizer solutions, which have very low concentration, is also recommended by many gardening experts. I happen to be one that believe in using these starter solutions, although I do not use them on all my transplants. If a plant were to be transplanted without any injury to its roots, assuming that there might be an obvious deficiency from its previous container, there is no reason why you cannot apply the nutrient that you think it needs. However, even then, you probably still need to take it easy on the Nitrogen and Phosphorus components initially. I would think that if there is damage to the main roots, that it would be overly risky to fertilize the plant as you would normally.

08-23-2009, 05:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tomsamba Another banana loving git Tomsamba's Photo Gallery Location: Gurabo, Puerto Rico Find me on the map! Zone: 11-12 Name: Tomsamba Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 85 BananaBucks : 36,513 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 10 Times Was Thanked 35 Times in 18 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Banana pups What's this got to do with proliferation or non-proliferation of pups? Does this mean if you fertilize correctly you get more pups?

08-23-2009, 07:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
chong Senior Member chong's Photo Gallery Location: Seattle, WA Find me on the map! Zone: 8-9 Name: Chong Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,851 BananaBucks : 100,639 Feedback: 6 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1,309 Times Was Thanked 1,702 Times in 759 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 991 Times	Re: Banana pups I was addressing Mr. Bob's comments. Sorry to digress. To address your question, I have read somewhere in this forum that the regular applications of a solution containing seaweed or kelp extract can help in pup production and it also helps in root development in newly transplanted plants. Try doing a search for "seaweed and kelp". Do not include the word "fertilizer" because you will get you quite a lot of threads that may not have anything to do with the two subjects.

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08-24-2009, 05:12 AM	#6 (permalink)
Gabe15 Moderator Gabe15's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Find me on the map! Zone: 12 Name: Gabe Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,892 BananaBucks : 13,357,715 Feedback: 5 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1 Times Was Thanked 8,243 Times in 2,200 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: Banana pups As far as varietal differences go, there are certain varieties which pup a lot more than others or at different times. This is due to the control of the hormones in the plant which allow suckering occur. Some varieties display what is called an inhibited suckering habit, in this habit the suckers do not grow very much (or at all) until after flowering has taken place on a first generation plant. Other varieties are uninhibited and all of the buds (of which there is one created for each leaf produced, standard botanical science) grow freely and the plants can form thick mats before the first generation even flowers. Of course there are many different habits in between these 2 extremes. The genetic potentials of some varieties will never be like those of others, so some varieties will never sucker as much as others even if they are very well taken care of. The best way to initiate the growth of more pups is cut back the main shoot and damage the meristem. This breaks the apical dominance and stops the flow of auxin from the meristem to the buds which inhibits the growth of pups, when apical dominance is broken the buds can grow freely into pups. __________________ Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties. Last edited by Gabe15 : 08-24-2009 at 11:41 AM.

08-24-2009, 05:24 AM	#7 (permalink)
Tomsamba Another banana loving git Tomsamba's Photo Gallery Location: Gurabo, Puerto Rico Find me on the map! Zone: 11-12 Name: Tomsamba Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 85 BananaBucks : 36,513 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 10 Times Was Thanked 35 Times in 18 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Banana pups Hmmm that make sense...it's genetic unless you stress the main shoot at which point it starts to pup...prehistoric stress response to insure proliferation of the species...is that a correct summation?

08-24-2009, 12:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Gabe15 Moderator Gabe15's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Find me on the map! Zone: 12 Name: Gabe Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,892 BananaBucks : 13,357,715 Feedback: 5 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1 Times Was Thanked 8,243 Times in 2,200 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: Banana pups Here is an example photo showing some different growth and suckering habits. The plants from left to right are: 'Obino l'Ewai' (AAB, Plantain), 'Pisang Jari Buaya' (AA), 'Tango' (AA) and 'Pama' (AA). 'Obino l'Ewai' is not happy, and it never has been for some reason, so that may be why its displaying an inhibited sucker habit. The plant seems to grow fine, but it always looks like it has a severe nutrient difficiency even though the other 24 plants in the same area look fine. If you look closely (or click on the photo and see it full size), you will see a few small suckers which are not growing much. 'Pisang Jari Buaya' is a free suckering variety, and it has formed a fair size mat even before its first flowering event. I had previously removed 2-3 suckers a few months ago on it, and I didn't count how many there are right now but it has a lot. 'Tango' is healthy and happy and also displaying a very inhibited suckering habit. It is currently fruiting, and has about 4 suckers, but none are growing much. When the fruit is harvested, the suckers should start to grow normally again. 'Pama' is the runt of the bunch, it gets the same care as the others, but just doesn't seem to like the environment as much, either that or it is just naturally a very slow grower in any condition. But I guess it makes up for it with its incredibly bright red pseudostem and petioles. This example is just to show how different varieties can react under the same conditions, so if you are treating all of your bananas the same, and some are out performing others and you are upset by it, consider that it may be completely natural. The varieties available on the market today come form many different climates and growing conditions, so it is normal to see differences in growth when they are all brought together. __________________ Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties. Last edited by Gabe15 : 08-24-2009 at 12:08 PM.

08-24-2009, 12:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
LilRaverBoi Nanner Time! LilRaverBoi's Photo Gallery Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Find me on the map! Zone: 5 Name: Bryan Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,937 BananaBucks : 122,143 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 534 Times Was Thanked 2,243 Times in 1,245 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 855 Times	Re: Banana pups Thanks for the great information, Gabe! I guess my question for the original poster is this: why are you concerned about this information? Is this just to satisfy your own curiosity for knowledge on the topic or are you trying to maximize/minimize pup production in your plants. For example, if you want large mats of plants, want to grow new pups to separate to either sell/grow elsewhere/trade, etc. Just wondering whether this is a 'just wondering' question or if there is some desired reason for learning about it. Don't worry...I'm not trying to question your motives or anything....just think the future discussion could be more tailored to your needs if you had a particular purpose in mind for such information...that's all. __________________ BANANA RAVE! Feel the beat from start to stop, dancin' and movin' from bottom to top! lilraverboi@genxglow.com RIP Tog Tan. We love you and will always remember you! I'm Bryan with a Y! There is no 'I' in BRYAN!

08-24-2009, 01:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tomsamba Another banana loving git Tomsamba's Photo Gallery Location: Gurabo, Puerto Rico Find me on the map! Zone: 11-12 Name: Tomsamba Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 85 BananaBucks : 36,513 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 10 Times Was Thanked 35 Times in 18 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Banana pups Why did I want to know? Mostly because I don't know spit about guineos or platanos and I now have like 27 different kinds in my yard. I really don't figure I can know too much about them. Where I live it's all wives tales, superstition and my mothers cousin was a jibaro who raised lots of guineos....

08-24-2009, 01:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
LilRaverBoi Nanner Time! LilRaverBoi's Photo Gallery Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Find me on the map! Zone: 5 Name: Bryan Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 2,937 BananaBucks : 122,143 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 534 Times Was Thanked 2,243 Times in 1,245 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 855 Times	Re: Banana pups Okay, so a general quest for knowledge then. Fair enough! Just trying to help you get the best information you can! __________________ BANANA RAVE! Feel the beat from start to stop, dancin' and movin' from bottom to top! lilraverboi@genxglow.com RIP Tog Tan. We love you and will always remember you! I'm Bryan with a Y! There is no 'I' in BRYAN!

07-22-2013, 10:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 484,192 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: Banana pups I have noticed that njalipoovan and baloy sucker a lot. pisang raja, dwarf namwah and gros michel are similar in their habit. The plantains including hua moa seem to wait until near flowering to sucker Pisang klotek doesnt sucker much fhia 1, fhia 17 and fhia 18 seem to take forever to sucker. I do a lot of corm divisions with those guys. From a fruit production angle, I dont want many suckers. From a nursery angle, I want them by the dozen. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

07-23-2013, 11:33 PM	#18 (permalink)
caliboy1994 <div style="font-style: italic;"><div style="font-style: italic;"></div></div> caliboy1994's Photo Gallery Location: SFV, California Find me on the map! Zone: USDA zone 10a; Sunset zone 18/19 Name: Andreas Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 2,301 BananaBucks : 266,646 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,474 Times Was Thanked 2,196 Times in 1,148 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 236 Times	Re: Banana pups It's fresh, but it's just above the corm. It's decaying now and getting all slimy. I can rake it away and then put it back when it decays a bit more. __________________ "The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings." ~ Masanobu Fukuoka Find me on linktree here as Solarpunk Farmer: https://linktr.ee/solarpunkfarmer

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