Kevin

I'm new to bananas, and was wondering about what genera and species there are that would be considered 'bananas'. I have found Musa, Ensete, and also Musella to be in the Family Musaceae. Is the term 'banana' accurate for this family, or only for Musa? Are there many species in this family? Has there been a lot of hybridization? Specifically, I am wondering about the only banana that I have, a Dwarf Orinoco - does anyone know the history of this one? Is it a hybrid? A cultivar of a speices? Have there been any records of the history of hybridization? I am familiar with the naming system of orchids, and it takes some getting used to other families where the rule is 'anything goes' and there are not records, so you have no idea what the make-up of a plant is.

What would you call the Musaceae family - Plantains? Or is there no common name to describe that family? If all three genera are the same, except for the fruit, what is a common feature of all, that would be easily described in a word?

Gabe15

Generally, the Musaceae is referred to as the "banana family", so all species of all 3 genera are called bananas. Every so often you will see plants of the genus Ensete and Musella referred to only as banana relatives, or being banana-like, but in the research community they are generally all called bananas. However, Ensete species (especially Ensete ventricosum) are also commonly called enset, but this is usually only when referring to them as a food crop (the corm is eaten in Africa and sometimes you will see phrases containing "banana and enset" to distinguish them).

The naming conventions for the wild species are straightforward Linnean binomials (ex, Musa basjoo. There are about 70 described species of Musa, 6 Ensete and 2 Musella. However there are new species and subspecies of already known species of Musa being published frequently.

Edible bananas have their own naming system due to a long and complex history of multiple and sometimes complex hybridization events coupled with mutation and human selection. The history of the edible bananas is more or less known from comparing them genetically with the wild species, however it is still very complex and there is really only one common trait between all of them and that is parthenocarpy. Some edible bananas are hybrids (either between different wild species or between different subspecies of the same wild species), but the only effect this has had is in terms of diversity, it is not inherent in them being edible that they are hybrids. There is actually quite a large number of non-hybrid derived edible bananas.

There are 2 wild species that have primarily contributed genetically to edible bananas, Musa acuminata and Musa balbisiana, both of which have many different varieties of their own. Some edible bananas are derived entirely from M. acuminata varieties, and others from hybrids with M. balbisiana. The naming system of edible bananas works by describing their genome and ploidy level along with what is called a subgroup designation. All cultivars in the same subgroup should theoretically be monophyletic (though in practice there remains some discrepancies). For example, the Cavendish subgroup banana cultivar 'Gran Nain' is a triploid derived purely from M. acuminata, so its full proper written name would be Musa (AAA-Cavendish) 'Gran Nain'. The 'Dwarf Cavendish' would thus be Musa (AAA-Cavendish) 'Dwarf Cavendish'. 'Pisang Mas', a Sucrier subgroup diploid derived from M. acuminata would be Musa (AA-Sucrier) 'Pisang Mas'. Though there is some debate as to whether or not subgroups are valid for diploids since they are very diverse and many are so different that there would be many which have only one cultivar per subgroup is subgroup designation were to be given, so for now they are mainly just used with the triploids. There are also tetraploid edible bananas. These types of names are only used in written documents, when talking people normally just use the cultivar name and may mention the subgroup if it is unclear.

As for your 'Dwarf Orinoco', it is the Bluggoe subgroup which are derived from both M. acuminata and M. balbisiana. It is also a triploid. The full proper written name is Musa (ABB-Bluggoe) 'Dwarf Orinoco'. These designations are useful, however the complete history of the edible bananas is not known because the events which made them edible happened many times over thousands of years across a very large geographic area.

The term plantain is actually a very specific term which is often used in a very unspecific manner. Plantains are a subgroup of bananas, genetically AAB, and the name is often used synonymously with any type of banana which is cooked, but this is incorrect. They can be characterized with some technical morphological traits.

The website below has lots of information on banana taxonomy.
Musaceae

This diagram is meant to show the basic relative relationships between different groups within the Musaceae. The blue ovals are sections of the genus Musa.


This diagram is meant to show the origins of edible bananas. It is incomplete and in reality the origins are much more complex, however it is still useful in showing the manner in which different groups may have arisen.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

bikoro child

thanks Gabe for all these explanations...Concerning Musellas is the Musella Splendida a valid designation ? And what are the characteristics of that one?




Houps i just see the answer on the site you gave...

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Ivan

51st state

I didn't think DRC was too confident in this one, but apparently INIBAP are:-

see:- http://musalit.inibap.org/pdf/IN030531_en.pdf

I can't quite see it myself, like a nutter I've just been out in the garden with a flashlight and my Musella Lasiocarpa also exhibit the following:-

"Figure 4. Leaf blade base of Musella splendida
with symmetrical, petiole margins curved inward
with red stripe"

I don't doubt that there are other forms of Musella out there in Vietnam/Myanmar/Cambodia/Laos but species is maybe stretching it.

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jasonlotp

So there are Feh'i bananas that are edible? Anyone here tasted them or have more info on them?

chong

There are at least six Fe'i varieties in Pohnpei that are like a staple food in that Island, and are reportedly rich in Carotinoid. CValentine posted a link on a thread that she started called "Colored Bananas" that described these six Fe'i. Colored Bananas...

Chris(Rmplmnz) also has a thread on his trip to the South Pacific where he has tons of photos and describes the breakfast of Fe'i bananas! His new avatar is a photo of a cooked Fe'i banana. French Polynesia

Kevin

Gabe 15 - Wow! Thanks for explaning that. It seems very complicated. What I was looking for, was, to use my Dwarf Orinoco as an example, would it be possible to re-create this? If someone had all the species at their disposal, and nothing else, would it be possible to re-create any of the known banana cultivars? It would probably take some time, with hybridizing and such, but I'm just trying to find a 'family tree', but it seems that doesn't exist. Are any bananas registered with any naming system like the RHS? Are all bananas able to be cross-bred with each other?

Another question, is how can you tell the difference between different species, hybrids and cultivars? Do they need to be in fruit before you can tell?

LilRaverBoi

Dang, Gabe! Always a wealth of knowledge! Thanks for the info....don't think I really have anything to add (well, anything that wouldn't be simply beating the dead horse LOL). Just wanted to say props to Gabe for being a super banana brainiac!

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Gabe15

None of the edible bananas can be recreated, except maybe the modern hybrids (because you could perform the same crosses again, but it would still be a slim chance you would get the same plant, and even then they would still technically be different). The traits that make the different cultivars unique are the results of mutation and human selection, not of hybridization.

There is no list of official registered banana names, but rather there are well informed lists of synonyms of common names by region. If you understand how banana taxonomy and genetics work as well, then you can tentatively classify plants and connect the dots of whats a new synonym or see when plants are mislabeled (usually by being called a common name of a different cultivar).

There are many characteristics that differ between plants. For an idea of the kinds of things that can be different, look at this document. It is the list of standard descriptors that was developed for triploid A and A+B edible cultivars. Currently we are working on developing a complete descriptors list that would work for almost any banana plant (wild or cultivated).

http://bananas.bioversityinternation...riptors_en.pdf

All fe'i bananas are edible, because fe'i bananas are inherently edible Australimusa. Wild Australimusa are not fe'i.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

51st state

I've just e mailed the Vietnamese to see if they're interested in selling some Musella Spledida seedlings. doesn't hurt to ask

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