What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON

Sting_stong · 12-03-2013, 01:40 PM

Hey Everyone,

I just wanted to share with you my first attempt at overwintering my basjoo. It's a first-year plant that put on a terrific amount of growth this past summer. It was planted in mid May with a 6" p-stem and I finished it off in mid October with a 3' p-stem. The diameter was 16" at the base and flared out drastically at the bottom, telling me that there is a sizeable corm under there. It was planted right next to the foundation to make sure I'm getting as much winter radiant heat as possible. I think part of the reason it did so well was because my dryer vent is right next to it and so the ground was kept quite warm periodically (there are 2 babies in the house, so the dryer runs a lot!).

I'm in Ottawa, Ontario (z5b) but based on it's location (next to the house, in a corner, under a 3' overhang from the second floor, SE facing) I'm guessing it's closer to a 6a or 6b. Starting in early February, there's always a 3 foot strip of bare ground along the brick wall where the heat has melted the snow, which tells me fairly certainly that there is a micro climate there.

Anyway, knowing that information, here is what I did to attempt an overwintering of my basjoo. Tell me what you think in terms of its chances at success!

The setting, before the massacre. I also have a Zebrina there in a buried pot, and a Sugarloaf Pineapple. I've been growing delicious pineapples for awhile, but this is my first Sugarloaf. Can't wait till next fall! The rest of my bananas are in the backyard.

Chop Chop

Chopped down to 2', wrapped in foam sheeting. The box is 2" foil-lined R8 styrofoam, then stuffed with straw. It's held together with caulk; the duct tape strips are only there to make me feel better. : )

Ready for the lid.

To top it all off. Dirt was placed around the bottom edge of the box, and it was angled slightly away from the house, so that water runs along the edges and drops off the front. There is also a 3' overhang above it, so there is not a lot of rain landing directly on top of it.
Wired and wireless thermometers were also placed in the box at different locations.

I didn't get a picture of it, but once the temperatures started dropping below 0c consistently, I put a black tarp over the whole thing. Once it gets even colder, I'll start piling up snow on it. We had one night where it dropped down to -17c (unusually cold for November) and the internal temperature of the box got down to +2c (near the outer walls), so I think I might be fine to not only save the corm, but *possibly* even save the p-stem.

Fingers crossed!

KJ

lmswayne · 12-03-2013, 05:03 PM

Nice job

2woodensticks · 12-03-2013, 06:36 PM

that should work..we will see next year

lmswayne · 12-03-2013, 06:56 PM

was that in your yard?

Olafhenny · 12-03-2013, 07:47 PM

Looks great KJ!

This should work a lot better, than the mulching jobs I have done my first few winters.
The only concern might be and I cannot tell from here, that cold air might seep in
through the cracks, especially the lid, as I assume, that you have glued the sides
together.

You might want to consider to use some compressible material as washer between lid
and walls an/or glue a square piece of foam with a reasonably tight fit into the opening
of the box onto the underside of the lid, as I have done in
Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring.

Otherwise your design has pretty well all the same advantages, which are discussed
in the above site, especially the advantage of opening it up much sooner in spring and
quickly covering it up again in case of frost threatening. Look through the discussion
on that site and you will be glad for your choice of winter protection.

Good luck,
Olaf

Sting_stong · 12-03-2013, 09:26 PM

lmswayne, yes, that is in my front yard.

Sting_stong · 12-03-2013, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

You might want to consider to use some compressible material as washer between lid
and walls an/or glue a square piece of foam with a reasonably tight fit into the opening
of the box onto the underside of the lid, as I have done in
Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring.

Thanks Olaf.

Yes, the sides are held together with all-weather caulking, and now that the cold weather is upon us, the top is also caulked on (but I would be able to pop it off in the early spring when necessary). There is now also a tarp over the whole thing to keep those drafts out.
I like how you painted yours. I was concerned about the unsightly nature of my green monolith, but it does look better with the black tarp covering it.

Have you ever measured your box's internal temperature? I'm wondering what the lowest possible temperature was (and for how long) the corm could withstand.

Olafhenny · 12-03-2013, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting_stong

Thanks Olaf.

Have you ever measured your box's internal temperature? I'm wondering what the lowest possible temperature was (and for how long) the corm could withstand.

No, KJ, but you brought up an interesting point. I recently acquired this min/max
thermometer Min-Max Thermometer - Lee Valley Tools, which
I loaned to a neighbour, who had a large sun room added to his house last summer.
Lots of light, but no heat. He agreed to look after some of my plants in this room on
the south side of his house.

Actually his sun room is ideal for an experiment, I have in mind, to test the cold
hardiness of some of my plants, specifically an oleander, which is Mediterranean by
origin and should consequently be hardy to minus 5 and a quat citrus (Fortunella
japonica (Thunberg) Swingle), which is purported to be hardy to -10^C. The min/max
will measure and record the coldest and the warmest temperature since it was reset
the last time.

My neighbour will record at which temperature they succumbed to frost or otherwise,
which were the coldest temperatures, they actually survived, while I will be in Vietnam
this winter.

After it was already to late and my shelters were sealed it occurred to me. that it
would have been a good idea to insert one of these thermometers into each of the
shelters, to find out, how cold it did get in there during the winter. Well, there is
always next winter.

If anybody is interested there is a lot about this very attractive citrus here:
Seeds for Quất, possibly the most attractive and hardy citrus… In Vietnam
it serves as the equivalent of our Christmas tree and is displayed everywhere
during Tet.

I am getting more seeds this trip. so let me know.

Best,
Olaf

Abnshrek · 12-03-2013, 11:54 PM

Looks like a Solid job of Winterization, I'm sure the dryer vent doesn't hurt anything either.. :^)

sunfish · 12-04-2013, 02:24 AM

Dry your cloths at night

cincinnana · 12-04-2013, 08:32 AM

Looks awesome !

Sting_stong · 12-04-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

No, KJ, but you brought up an interesting point. I recently acquired this min/max
thermometer Min-Max Thermometer - Lee Valley Tools, which
I loaned to a neighbour, who had a large sun room added to his house last summer.
Lots of light, but no heat. He agreed to look after some of my plants in this room on
the south side of his house.

Actually his sun room is ideal for an experiment, I have in mind, to test the cold
hardiness of some of my plants, specifically an oleander, which is Mediterranean by
origin and should consequently be hardy to minus 5 and a quat citrus (Fortunella
japonica (Thunberg) Swingle), which is purported to be hardy to -10^C. The min/max
will measure and record the coldest and the warmest temperature since it was reset
the last time.

My neighbour will record at which temperature they succumbed to frost or otherwise,
which were the coldest temperatures, they actually survived, while I will be in Vietnam
this winter.

After it was already to late and my shelters were sealed it occurred to me. that it
would have been a good idea to insert one of these thermometers into each of the
shelters, to find out, how cold it did get in there during the winter. Well, there is
always next winter.

If anybody is interested there is a lot about this very attractive citrus here:
Seeds for Quất, possibly the most attractive and hardy citrus… In Vietnam
it serves as the equivalent of our Christmas tree and is displayed everywhere
during Tet.

I am getting more seeds this trip. so let me know.

Best,
Olaf

The link on the Quats seems to be no longer existent, but I did a quick search and I never realized that they were that hardy!

When you grow them from seed, will they still bear fruit, or is the seed a non-bearing hybrid of the parent plants? I have a number of citrus; Ponderosa lemon, Persian lime, and Eureka lemon (I think), but I don't have any Quats. Yet!

Would definitely be interested in seeds!

Having a thermometer in the box was meant to make me less anxious about what's going on in there, but I think it has just made me more obsessed with it because I can constantly check it. I have a feeling I'll be checking it in the middle of the night later this winter if I happen to wake up. It certainly is good to have that peace of mind, though.

Olafhenny · 12-04-2013, 02:08 PM

Hi KJ,

I just clicked on the quat link in your post here and it sprang right up.

I have no idea, if they fruit from seed grown plants. Mine are not old enough to do that.
(Only about 18 months.) The problem in Vietnam is, that all who speak English seem to
be working in the hospitality industry and their language is limited to that field. They
are great gardeners though, and I wished I could ask them a thousand questions.

You know probably a lot more about growing citrus than I do. I have learned one
thing about the quat though, it is that the seeds have to go into the soil very soon
after they are harvested from the fruit, or they will not germinate. That means, that
I have to send them out immediately, after I arrive back, or all will be for naught.

In other words I would need your mailing address preferably before Christmas, by
PM, of course.

Opening up you shelter during the winter may not be such a good idea, as the urge to
do that would probably be the greatest, when it is very cold and you would just let a
lot of cold air in. You could possibly find one with a remote reader, but they might be a
bit pricey.

Best,
Olaf

Sting_stong · 12-04-2013, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Hi KJ,

Opening up you shelter during the winter may not be such a good idea, as the urge to
do that would probably be the greatest, when it is very cold and you would just let a
lot of cold air in. You could possibly find one with a remote reader, but they might be a
bit pricey.

I've actually got two thermometers in there already. One wired and one wireless. I can't stop staring at them! I've found that if the outside temperature is around 0c, the internal temperature is around +10c. However, when it's substantially cooler outside, say -15c, the internal temperature has only dropped to +2-3c. Obviously it takes a lot longer for the box temperature to drop, but I'm just not sure yet if those above-zero temperatures can be maintained with a longer cold snap. We shall see.

Sting_stong · 12-04-2013, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnshrek

I'm sure the dryer vent doesn't hurt anything either.. :^)

It's funny, I actually planned it out so the dryer vent would be my secret weapon in a deep freeze. The box actually has a hole in the side that fits snuggly over the dryer vent. However, I'm not sure if I'll ever direct the dryer air into the box as it would introduce a lot of moisture. I would have to run it with no clothes in it, which seems like a waste. At least I have that option, though. I have one of those diverters that is currently venting the dryer into the basement to give me much needed humidity in the house, and of course for my tropicals that spend the winter under the lights in the basement. Directly in the path of said vent, of course. They think they're in Jamaica whenever the dryer is running!

Olafhenny · 12-04-2013, 03:19 PM

That is excellent planning!

lmswayne · 12-05-2013, 02:01 PM

I would have never though of the dryer vent Banana brilliants at work.as it is 25f I am going to give it a try.
Thanks. baby my bananas will quit shriving.

hasty22 · 12-07-2013, 10:06 PM

I live in zone 5b as well. I wrapped in pink insulation and garbage bag with no heat. yours looks better protected.

Olafhenny · 12-07-2013, 10:37 PM

Actually, Hasty, one layer of pink insulation (fibreglass) has an R-value of 11 or 12,
while two inches of polystyrene have an R-value of only 8. KJ has augmented his
protection, by filling his Styrofoam box with hay. Your method is probably just as
effective, providing it is well sealed against cold air at the bottom. A wedge of soil
piled against the bottom of the garbage bag, augmented with a heavy collar of leaf
mulch will do that, and it is not too late to apply that now. Also it is important, that
you have placed a heavy layer of your fibreglass on top of the PS as well.

Good luck,
Olaf

lmswayne · 12-08-2013, 06:24 PM

I learn something new every day. Creative minds teach others so much. Thank you.

12-03-2013, 01:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Sting_stong Location: Ottawa, ON Find me on the map! Zone: 5b (microclimate 6a) Name: KJ Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 59 BananaBucks : 14,326 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 61 Times Was Thanked 85 Times in 20 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Hey Everyone, I just wanted to share with you my first attempt at overwintering my basjoo. It's a first-year plant that put on a terrific amount of growth this past summer. It was planted in mid May with a 6" p-stem and I finished it off in mid October with a 3' p-stem. The diameter was 16" at the base and flared out drastically at the bottom, telling me that there is a sizeable corm under there. It was planted right next to the foundation to make sure I'm getting as much winter radiant heat as possible. I think part of the reason it did so well was because my dryer vent is right next to it and so the ground was kept quite warm periodically (there are 2 babies in the house, so the dryer runs a lot!). I'm in Ottawa, Ontario (z5b) but based on it's location (next to the house, in a corner, under a 3' overhang from the second floor, SE facing) I'm guessing it's closer to a 6a or 6b. Starting in early February, there's always a 3 foot strip of bare ground along the brick wall where the heat has melted the snow, which tells me fairly certainly that there is a micro climate there. Anyway, knowing that information, here is what I did to attempt an overwintering of my basjoo. Tell me what you think in terms of its chances at success! The setting, before the massacre. I also have a Zebrina there in a buried pot, and a Sugarloaf Pineapple. I've been growing delicious pineapples for awhile, but this is my first Sugarloaf. Can't wait till next fall! The rest of my bananas are in the backyard. Chop Chop Chopped down to 2', wrapped in foam sheeting. The box is 2" foil-lined R8 styrofoam, then stuffed with straw. It's held together with caulk; the duct tape strips are only there to make me feel better. : ) Ready for the lid. To top it all off. Dirt was placed around the bottom edge of the box, and it was angled slightly away from the house, so that water runs along the edges and drops off the front. There is also a 3' overhang above it, so there is not a lot of rain landing directly on top of it. Wired and wireless thermometers were also placed in the box at different locations. I didn't get a picture of it, but once the temperatures started dropping below 0c consistently, I put a black tarp over the whole thing. Once it gets even colder, I'll start piling up snow on it. We had one night where it dropped down to -17c (unusually cold for November) and the internal temperature of the box got down to +2c (near the outer walls), so I think I might be fine to not only save the corm, but possibly even save the p-stem. Fingers crossed! KJ Last edited by Sting_stong : 12-03-2013 at 09:36 PM.

12-03-2013, 05:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
lmswayne Location: Seattle Find me on the map! Zone: 8-9 Name: Linda Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 319 BananaBucks : 5,377 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,753 Times Was Thanked 260 Times in 178 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 412 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Nice job __________________

12-03-2013, 06:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
2woodensticks PURA VIDA!! Location: close to tampa florida Find me on the map! Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 697 BananaBucks : 45,376 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 421 Times Was Thanked 469 Times in 286 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 310 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON that should work..we will see next year __________________ got to love em..{neotropical rattlesnake..cascabell}

12-03-2013, 06:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
lmswayne Location: Seattle Find me on the map! Zone: 8-9 Name: Linda Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 319 BananaBucks : 5,377 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,753 Times Was Thanked 260 Times in 178 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 412 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON was that in your yard? __________________

12-03-2013, 07:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 246,357 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Looks great KJ! This should work a lot better, than the mulching jobs I have done my first few winters. The only concern might be and I cannot tell from here, that cold air might seep in through the cracks, especially the lid, as I assume, that you have glued the sides together. You might want to consider to use some compressible material as washer between lid and walls an/or glue a square piece of foam with a reasonably tight fit into the opening of the box onto the underside of the lid, as I have done in Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring. Otherwise your design has pretty well all the same advantages, which are discussed in the above site, especially the advantage of opening it up much sooner in spring and quickly covering it up again in case of frost threatening. Look through the discussion on that site and you will be glad for your choice of winter protection. Good luck, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

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12-03-2013, 09:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sting_stong Location: Ottawa, ON Find me on the map! Zone: 5b (microclimate 6a) Name: KJ Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 59 BananaBucks : 14,326 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 61 Times Was Thanked 85 Times in 20 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON lmswayne, yes, that is in my front yard.

12-03-2013, 11:54 PM	#9 (permalink)
Abnshrek Happy Growing Abnshrek 's Photo Gallery Location: Beaumont Texas Find me on the map! Zone: 8b, but 9b weather.. Name: Migael / Michael Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 9,492 BananaBucks : 197,404 Feedback: 45 / 100% Said "Thanks" 10,447 Times Was Thanked 16,440 Times in 5,237 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2,318 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Looks like a Solid job of Winterization, I'm sure the dryer vent doesn't hurt anything either.. :^) __________________ I'm a Nannerhead :^)

12-04-2013, 02:24 AM	#10 (permalink)
sunfish Banned sunfish's Photo Gallery Location: San Diego Find me on the map! Zone: 9-11 Name: Tony Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 18,429 BananaBucks : 949,199 Feedback: 8 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,210 Times Was Thanked 20,591 Times in 7,760 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2,716 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Dry your cloths at night

12-04-2013, 08:32 AM	#11 (permalink)
cincinnana container grower Location: Southwest Ohio U.S.A.🇺🇸 Find me on the map! Zone: HZ 6/5 Microclimate - Elevation 750 feet- 228.60 meters Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 8,784 BananaBucks : 903 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,865 Times Was Thanked 11,706 Times in 4,870 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1,943 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Looks awesome ! __________________ Cincinnana/Hostafarians Photo Gallery 🌴

12-04-2013, 02:08 PM	#13 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 246,357 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Hi KJ, I just clicked on the quat link in your post here and it sprang right up. I have no idea, if they fruit from seed grown plants. Mine are not old enough to do that. (Only about 18 months.) The problem in Vietnam is, that all who speak English seem to be working in the hospitality industry and their language is limited to that field. They are great gardeners though, and I wished I could ask them a thousand questions. You know probably a lot more about growing citrus than I do. I have learned one thing about the quat though, it is that the seeds have to go into the soil very soon after they are harvested from the fruit, or they will not germinate. That means, that I have to send them out immediately, after I arrive back, or all will be for naught. In other words I would need your mailing address preferably before Christmas, by PM, of course. Opening up you shelter during the winter may not be such a good idea, as the urge to do that would probably be the greatest, when it is very cold and you would just let a lot of cold air in. You could possibly find one with a remote reader, but they might be a bit pricey. Best, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

12-04-2013, 03:19 PM	#16 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 246,357 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON That is excellent planning! __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

12-05-2013, 02:01 PM	#17 (permalink)
lmswayne Location: Seattle Find me on the map! Zone: 8-9 Name: Linda Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 319 BananaBucks : 5,377 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,753 Times Was Thanked 260 Times in 178 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 412 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON I would have never though of the dryer vent Banana brilliants at work.as it is 25f I am going to give it a try. Thanks. baby my bananas will quit shriving. __________________

12-07-2013, 10:06 PM	#18 (permalink)
hasty22 Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 24 BananaBucks : 7,250 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 0 Times Was Thanked 30 Times in 10 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON I live in zone 5b as well. I wrapped in pink insulation and garbage bag with no heat. yours looks better protected.

12-07-2013, 10:37 PM	#19 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 246,357 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON Actually, Hasty, one layer of pink insulation (fibreglass) has an R-value of 11 or 12, while two inches of polystyrene have an R-value of only 8. KJ has augmented his protection, by filling his Styrofoam box with hay. Your method is probably just as effective, providing it is well sealed against cold air at the bottom. A wedge of soil piled against the bottom of the garbage bag, augmented with a heavy collar of leaf mulch will do that, and it is not too late to apply that now. Also it is important, that you have placed a heavy layer of your fibreglass on top of the PS as well. Good luck, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

12-08-2013, 06:24 PM	#20 (permalink)
lmswayne Location: Seattle Find me on the map! Zone: 8-9 Name: Linda Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 319 BananaBucks : 5,377 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,753 Times Was Thanked 260 Times in 178 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 412 Times	Re: What do you think of my overwintering method so far? Ottawa, ON I learn something new every day. Creative minds teach others so much. Thank you. __________________

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