Lodewijkp

Hey

actually how cold hardy is this hybrid ?
there is not much overwintering data available.

is this actually an new scientific confirmed species ?

greetz

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natedogg1026

I've been told z7. Hope so, I'm gonna try next winter.--Nate

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Tropicallvr

It's most likely a Musa sikkimensis X Musa balbisiana hybrid, based on leaf characteristics, so it wouldn't be a species.
I'll bet it is as hardy as Musa sikkimensis, and maybe less so in some cases where a particular seedling got less genes from the sikkimensis side of the family. It hasn't been grown for very long, but I sprouted one last december, and by the time autum rolled around it was a good seven feet tall and big enough to test out doors, but I sold it instead before I moved north.

mrbungalow

Kyle is right, either sikkimensis X balbisiana or sikkimensis X "paradisiaca"*

One thing I have learned about this one is that it seems to hate indoor conditions. But it seems to do really great outside, as well as in a greenhouse. Growth isn't as spectacular as m. helen (Sikkimensis X "champa" cultivar) when young, but growth accelerates as the plant matures.

Hardiness is still unknown, mine are in a frostfree GH for the winter. I think Kyle is one of the pioneers on this one.

*paradisiaca means basically "unknown seeded variety".

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austinl01

Thanks for the info. I didn't know what this word meant. It just sounded tropical to me!

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Austin
Arkansas River Valley

Average January Low: 31°F, Average August High: 92°F
Extreme Winter Lows: 5-15°F, Extreme Summer Highs: 100-112°F, Annual Precipitation: 52 inches

bigdog

I have really been wondering recently about the sikkimensis "hybrids." Does this species just readily form hybrids with whatever is nearby?? Simmonds stated that he saw differences in the species in different localities (Manipur, Sikkim, etc.), so I wonder if some of them are still just Musa sikkimensis, and not a hybrid at all. Just a variety of the species, or a subspecies. DNA tests are needed to sort that all out, and I don't think anybody's very concerned about doing that anytime soon, so we will be left to speculate on that for a long time I imagine.

My 'Darjeeling Giant' is getting big in the greenhouse, and has 3 new pups. Can't wait for spring to get it in the ground!

I think the name Musa paradisiaca, literally translated from Latin, means "Heavenly Muse." Erlend was just saying that any banana called M. paradisiaca is really just another name for a unknown variety of banana. It's more complicated than that though...

Nomenclature

Panaroma

Hi Bigdog,

I was wondering the same thing you did. Does Sikkimensis make hybrids that easy? Fascinating question! More investigation is needed, surely!

Gunther
Brussels

mrbungalow

I am starting to realize sikkimensis is a complicated species too. For example: Less than 2 years ago, I was convinced musa sikkimensis "red tiger" was the same thing as regular sikkimensis. After seeing the two side by side from seedling to large plant I had to admit that they had certain differing features in addition to colour. These were not just two individual plants side by side, but groups of atleast 20 plants of each side by side.

Since sikkimensis makes such viable seeds with the "Champa" cultivar (known as "helen"), who knows what's possible? On background of this I am guessing sikkimensis can hybridize easily, but I think Gabe knows more about that subject.

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bigdog

Yes, the 'Red Tiger' variety is somewhat of a mystery to me also. The leaf bases on mine taper into the petiole, much like Musa acuminata. But here is Noltie's (1994) description of the leaf bases:

"Leaves spreading, blades oblong-lanceolate, base rounded or slightly cordate,"

Also, there is a 1996 description that says that the pseudostems are only 1-1.5 meters tall!?!? The other descriptions lists it to 4 meters tall. Perhaps somebody will straighten it all out for us one day.

Lodewijkp

And Helen's hybrid what could that be sikki X ? , wil a hybrid between a hardy nanner and a not hardy nanner be as cold tolerant as the hardy parent ?
have someone tested helens hybrid on cold hardiness ?

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Panaroma

Some will be more resistant than others.
This winter, I test(ed) my Helens in my greenhouse. They all took a couple of freezes from -4 to -5*C. All my citrus can take those temps, so... no big deal.
My Helens are kept quite dry and the leaves (natural insulation once frozen) I did cut off. That way the stemhardiness can be measured.
My findings, so far, is that the black-stemmed ones are more tender (Chini-Champa genes). On the other side, one green one is unharmed by the frost.
It looks like they all going to pull trough, some more scarfaced than others. Nice hybrid!!

Gunther,
Brussels

bigdog

I am testing 'Helen's Hybrid' this winter in the ground. I'm in zone 7a (USDA), but the official low for our area thus far is 11F. I have recorded upper single digits Fahrenheit on three occasions. I did protect the pseudostem with a bag of leaves, but haven't bothered to check on it yet.

Tropicallvr

Right now I have growing side by side M.daj giant, and Musa sikkimensis X paradisica seedlings sprouted at the same time. The Daj Giant is slightly more vigourous of the two, and the Musa sikki X paradisica hybrid has a much less vigourous root system, but top growth is good. Based on root vigor alone, I'd say that Daj giant has a better chance of surviving than his hybrid brother, but that's just one comparison.

Lodewijkp

Tropical VR how did your musa ornata react on certain low temps ?

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Tropicallvr

Well, it died back to the corm each year outside in a pot in a cold zone 8a, but the corms were large and it regrew fast in full sun. For the northwest climate with cold nights, and a fairly short growing season I prefer growing it, instead of Musa veluntina, and I found it to be just as hardy if not more hardy. I grew it from seed from bananatree dot com, and have just ordered 100 more to try again(sold off my other plants)

Lodewijkp

cool

what is the germination succes rate ?
does it need major or minor temp fluctations ?

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Tropicallvr

I can't remember what the exact temps were, but they seemed pretty easy to germinate, with average fluctuation.
Another really good ornamental that grows well in cool tempatures is Musa mannii. I'm hoping that Musa auranticana will also be a good cold hardy ornamental banana, so far so good.

Zac in NC

Do you have pictures of this Frank?

Zac

Raules

All hello! At last has found this theme. I too was asked by this question and have placed it here:
Musa Sikkmensis forms.
I looked Frank photo Musa Sikkmensis Darjeeling Giant. And it is visible, that it differs that has grown at me. At me most likely usual Musa Sikkmensis. But I see at this kind many hybrids and a lot of not clear.

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bigdog

I checked my gallery and my hard drive for one leaf picture, and couldn't find one. Probably the only banana I haven't done that with, LOL! I did find a few entire plant shots, though, and you might be able to tell from the large size picture. You can see the leaf bases aren't cordate, or even really rounded.