Bananas.org

Welcome to the Bananas.org forums.

You're currently viewing our message boards as a guest which gives you limited access to participate in discussions and access our other features such as our wiki and photo gallery. By joining our community, you'll have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Go Back   Bananas.org > Banana Forum > Cold Hardy Bananas
Register Photo Gallery Classifieds Wiki Chat Map Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Cold Hardy Bananas This forum is dedicated to the discussion of bananas that are able to grow and thrive in cold areas. You'll find lots of tips and discussions about keeping your bananas over the winter.


Members currently in the chatroom: 0
The most chatters online in one day was 17, 09-06-2009.
No one is currently using the chat.

Reply   Email this Page Email this Page
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-14-2022, 07:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 3
BananaBucks : 1,464
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 3 Times
Was Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
Default deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

I am going to try to start growing some "cold" hardy bananas in zone 5. A musa basjoo, and a blue java/ice cream banana. They are supposedly in the mail on their way here. I expect the Musa Basjoo to survive with a little maintenance, and the blue java will require a lot.

For my first year with the blue java, I think I will try the traditional "dry storage method" to over winter the banana. For any pups that develop thereafter, I might do an experiment....although experimenting may not be necessary if someone else has done it and can report back their observations.

Supposedly underground, even just a few feet, it is supposed to stay warm even during the winter months. see https://lisbdnet.com/what-is-the-tem...%20the%20south.

Hence, I think [and I could be wrong] the a cold hardy corm by itself might be able to survive a brutal winter if it was planted some 3-5 feet under ground [and gradually covered up as the psuedostem grows prior to the winter]. However during the winter months, there is still the issue of the [stem] making its way from the corm to the surface.

Can the [stem] be cut under the ground, or can it just be buried?
Or should layers upon layers of mulch be placed on it, or is that not enough to protect the [blue java] corm?
Will the corm still signal for the [stem] to grow in either case?
Will the temperatures at that depth be low for the corm to signal the [stem] to grow at an appropriate time?...will I have to effectively remove some of the dirt for it to grow again.
Will the corm have enough nutrients to survive the winter?

Will a deeply planted banana plant still shoot out new pups to the surface?

Thx
firstamendment is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To firstamendment
Said thanks:

Join Bananas.org Today!

Are you a banana plant enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Bananas.org is owned and operated by fellow banana plant enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information. Receive all three issues from Volume 1 of Bananas Magazine with your membership:
   

Join Bananas.org Today! - Click Here


Sponsors

Old 04-15-2022, 06:08 AM   #2 (permalink)
container grower
 
cincinnana's Avatar
 
Location: Southwest Ohio U.S.A.🇺🇸
Zone: HZ 6/5 Microclimate - Elevation 750 feet- 228.60 meters
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 8,535
Feedback: 7 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 3,842 Times
Was Thanked 11,361 Times in 4,745 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1,816 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstamendment View Post
I am going to try to start growing some "cold" hardy bananas in zone 5. A musa basjoo, and a blue java/ice cream banana. They are supposedly in the mail on their way here. I expect the Musa Basjoo to survive with a little maintenance, and the blue java will require a lot.

For my first year with the blue java, I think I will try the traditional "dry storage method" to over winter the banana. For any pups that develop thereafter, I might do an experiment....although experimenting may not be necessary if someone else has done it and can report back their observations.

Supposedly underground, even just a few feet, it is supposed to stay warm even during the winter months. see https://lisbdnet.com/what-is-the-tem...%20the%20south.

Hence, I think [and I could be wrong] the a cold hardy corm by itself might be able to survive a brutal winter if it was planted some 3-5 feet under ground [and gradually covered up as the psuedostem grows prior to the winter]. However during the winter months, there is still the issue of the [stem] making its way from the corm to the surface.

Can the [stem] be cut under the ground, or can it just be buried?
Or should layers upon layers of mulch be placed on it, or is that not enough to protect the [blue java] corm?
Will the corm still signal for the [stem] to grow in either case?
Will the temperatures at that depth be low for the corm to signal the [stem] to grow at an appropriate time?...will I have to effectively remove some of the dirt for it to grow again.
Will the corm have enough nutrients to survive the winter?

Will a deeply planted banana plant still shoot out new pups to the surface?

Thx
Quick answer.....no.

The concept sounds good on paper though.
Some forum members have dug a large deep glass covered pits and planted in the bottom to take advantage the natural warmth.

Basjoos planted at normal depth or slightly deeper you will have no issues.
Over time mature basjoo will even raise a bit from the original planting depth.

Blue Java is a total tropical and wont tolerate the lower temps for 8 months.

Heck, give it a try and if the results are consistent over time
__________________
🌴

Last edited by cincinnana : 04-15-2022 at 07:21 AM.
cincinnana is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To cincinnana
Said thanks:
Old 04-15-2022, 05:38 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 250
BananaBucks : 10,152
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 125 Times
Was Thanked 314 Times in 166 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 17 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

I can give you how they bury taro in Japan, in warmer climate, and can tell you what did not work for me in zone 5.

The taro variety is called satoimo (aka dasheen, eddo, Colocasia esculenta var antiquorum L). It is grown for the little side cormlets, which have less "itch" than regular Hawaiian taro. It can be cooked in stir-fry. It is more temperate than taro, and needs a few "chill hours" each winter to be ready to take off in the spring. So a little different from your tropical bananas.

I have two friends who have told me how people overwinter it in Japan, near Tokyo and Nagoya.

The first said they separate the cormlets in the fall and bury the individual "potatoes": "Farmers keep some of the harvested potatoes, and bury them 50 cm (1.5 ft) below ground, IMMEDIATELY after the harvest. (You don’t even dry them.) In the spring, you dig them up. When you plant it, you plant it 20 cm (0.6 feet) below grade."

The second sent me pictures and labels. Their technique was to bury the whole clump, (I think without digging it up), in the late fall. The pix clearly show a bunch of dried plants (stalks, like maybe cattails, onion flowers, etc.) then a wee bit of dirt, then a sheet of plastic with more dirt on top of that.

My failure was sorta like the first one - except here in zone 5 I went down about 3 feet trying to beat the cold. In the spring it was a soggy rotten mess. I have not tried the second method. But I think it would work better, to both not disturb it in the fall, and to keep it relatively dry vs down in a well. It might take a bale of hay to give it enough insulation, and maybe 2 layers of plastic with something inbetween. And be on a hill with good drainage. Good luck.
raygrogan is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To raygrogan
Said thanks:
Old 04-15-2022, 07:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 3
BananaBucks : 1,464
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 3 Times
Was Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raygrogan View Post
I can give you how they bury taro in Japan, in warmer climate, and can tell you what did not work for me in zone 5.

The taro variety is called satoimo (aka dasheen, eddo, Colocasia esculenta var antiquorum L). It is grown for the little side cormlets, which have less "itch" than regular Hawaiian taro. It can be cooked in stir-fry. It is more temperate than taro, and needs a few "chill hours" each winter to be ready to take off in the spring. So a little different from your tropical bananas.

I have two friends who have told me how people overwinter it in Japan, near Tokyo and Nagoya.

The first said they separate the cormlets in the fall and bury the individual "potatoes": "Farmers keep some of the harvested potatoes, and bury them 50 cm (1.5 ft) below ground, IMMEDIATELY after the harvest. (You donít even dry them.) In the spring, you dig them up. When you plant it, you plant it 20 cm (0.6 feet) below grade."

The second sent me pictures and labels. Their technique was to bury the whole clump, (I think without digging it up), in the late fall. The pix clearly show a bunch of dried plants (stalks, like maybe cattails, onion flowers, etc.) then a wee bit of dirt, then a sheet of plastic with more dirt on top of that.

My failure was sorta like the first one - except here in zone 5 I went down about 3 feet trying to beat the cold. In the spring it was a soggy rotten mess. I have not tried the second method. But I think it would work better, to both not disturb it in the fall, and to keep it relatively dry vs down in a well. It might take a bale of hay to give it enough insulation, and maybe 2 layers of plastic with something inbetween. And be on a hill with good drainage. Good luck.
Thanks. A hill with good drainage given your observations definitely sounds good. It also sounds like the Japanese in method 2 were both trying to deflect any water going straight down, while absorbing the water that still made it through through the sides. I am not sure what the weather is like in Japan, nor how waterlogged underground soil flows in a general sense [and certainly not in navier-stokes terms either], nonetheless we probably have a bigger issue with snow melt. Hence a hill sounds good [maybe with erosion control], also maybe having a plastic sheet [sealed] around the sides of the pit/hole and possibly deeper than the corm.

I'm getting my Basjoo on the 17th, and the blue java on the 19th if it survives the weather in transit. It'll be a while before I have extra pups to start playing with, and plenty of time to think and ask questions before I do anything.
firstamendment is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To firstamendment
Old 04-30-2022, 11:04 AM   #5 (permalink)
Commercial Grower
 
PR-Giants's Avatar
 
Location: Florida & Greater Antilles
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,454
BananaBucks : 1,600
Feedback: 16 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 2,869 Times
Was Thanked 12,119 Times in 3,527 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,162 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstamendment View Post
I am going to try to start growing some "cold" hardy bananas in zone 5. A musa basjoo, and a blue java/ice cream banana. They are supposedly in the mail on their way here. I expect the Musa Basjoo to survive with a little maintenance, and the blue java will require a lot.

For my first year with the blue java, I think I will try the traditional "dry storage method" to over winter the banana. For any pups that develop thereafter, I might do an experiment....although experimenting may not be necessary if someone else has done it and can report back their observations.

Supposedly underground, even just a few feet, it is supposed to stay warm even during the winter months. see https://lisbdnet.com/what-is-the-tem...%20the%20south.

Hence, I think [and I could be wrong] the a cold hardy corm by itself might be able to survive a brutal winter if it was planted some 3-5 feet under ground [and gradually covered up as the psuedostem grows prior to the winter]. However during the winter months, there is still the issue of the [stem] making its way from the corm to the surface.

Can the [stem] be cut under the ground, or can it just be buried?
Or should layers upon layers of mulch be placed on it, or is that not enough to protect the [blue java] corm?
Will the corm still signal for the [stem] to grow in either case?
Will the temperatures at that depth be low for the corm to signal the [stem] to grow at an appropriate time?...will I have to effectively remove some of the dirt for it to grow again.
Will the corm have enough nutrients to survive the winter?

Will a deeply planted banana plant still shoot out new pups to the surface?

Thx
What you're describing I refer to as the "Dumbbell Effect" and it can be used very productively for macropropagation.

Basically a rhizome planted too deeply will self adjust the location of it's main growing point by sending up a slender growth containing the growing point to it's preferred depth. Once it's at that depth it will regain it's bulb like shape, it then resembles a dumbbell because it has two bulbs connected by a bar shaped growth.
__________________



PR-Giants Photo Gallery



15,000+ Varieties

PR-Giants is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To PR-Giants
Sponsors

Old 02-18-2023, 02:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
Banana Man
 
sddarkman619's Avatar
 
Name: Larry
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,104
BananaBucks : 163,732
Feedback: 14 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 333 Times
Was Thanked 1,137 Times in 495 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PR-Giants View Post
What you're describing I refer to as the "Dumbbell Effect" and it can be used very productively for macropropagation.

Basically a rhizome planted too deeply will self adjust the location of it's main growing point by sending up a slender growth containing the growing point to it's preferred depth. Once it's at that depth it will regain it's bulb like shape, it then resembles a dumbbell because it has two bulbs connected by a bar shaped growth.
So after it had achieved the dumbell shape, can you dig it up and seperate the two bulbs and grow each out?
__________________
Ca Licensed Nursery - Snail/Disease Free and Inspected:
Bountiful Garden Nursery - A1469.001

Banana Plants for Sale
https://www.bananatreesforsale.com


Sign up to the Newsletter for Updates:
Sign Up Here
sddarkman619 is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To sddarkman619
Said thanks:
Old 04-25-2023, 11:23 AM   #7 (permalink)
Commercial Grower
 
PR-Giants's Avatar
 
Location: Florida & Greater Antilles
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,454
BananaBucks : 1,600
Feedback: 16 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 2,869 Times
Was Thanked 12,119 Times in 3,527 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,162 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sddarkman619 View Post
So after it had achieved the dumbell shape, can you dig it up and seperate the two bulbs and grow each out?
No, because there is still only one main growing point. The lower bulb will only grow the auxiliary buds while the upper bulb can grow both the main growing point and any of the auxiliary buds.

What's important is to just understand the principle. I certainly wouldn't recommend using this technique because it is extremely inefficient but it should help someone to be able to figure out a much more efficient way of achieving the same results. I normally use my photos to show what happens by using different techniques but that's only because it's easier for me to find my photos opposed to searching someone else's photo gallery. There's a member from Cincinnati that has some photos of a very efficient technique that's basically a Master Class on "Mass Macropropagation".
__________________



PR-Giants Photo Gallery



15,000+ Varieties

PR-Giants is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To PR-Giants
Said thanks:
Old 05-03-2023, 02:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
banana cereal killer
 
beam2050's Avatar
 
Location: middleburg fl.
Zone: 9b-8a
Name: walkinbeam
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,205
BananaBucks : 874
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 9,341 Times
Was Thanked 3,134 Times in 1,439 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 770 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PR-Giants View Post
What you're describing I refer to as the "Dumbbell Effect" and it can be used very productively for macropropagation.

Basically a rhizome planted too deeply will self adjust the location of it's main growing point by sending up a slender growth containing the growing point to it's preferred depth. Once it's at that depth it will regain it's bulb like shape, it then resembles a dumbbell because it has two bulbs connected by a bar shaped growth.
i have at least 2 do that one above ground and one below.

the one below ground was a fhia-17 i have had growing in the ground for 6 years. i decided to redo the mat an found it growing like this in the first photo.

the second photo is a sweetheart i found broken off last year. it is currently growing in a pot.

i have a 3rd one [probably] of a banana that i broke off with my lawnmower. it has been growing in a cracked 5 gallon bucket planted 2 inches from the bottom for almost a year now. i have yet to take it out of the bucket.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1010024.JPG (410.1 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg PB100253.JPG (421.8 KB, 11 views)
__________________
...................................................

npk of wood ash 0/1/3 to 0/3/7

npk of banana leaf ash 1.75/0.75/0.5

Last edited by beam2050 : 05-03-2023 at 02:48 PM.
beam2050 is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To beam2050
Old 05-07-2023, 08:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
Commercial Grower
 
PR-Giants's Avatar
 
Location: Florida & Greater Antilles
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,454
BananaBucks : 1,600
Feedback: 16 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 2,869 Times
Was Thanked 12,119 Times in 3,527 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,162 Times
Default Re: deep burying a corm 3-5 ft under ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beam2050 View Post

the second photo is a sweetheart i found broken off last year. it is currently growing in a pot.
That's an impressive photo.
__________________



PR-Giants Photo Gallery



15,000+ Varieties

PR-Giants is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To PR-Giants
Said thanks:
Reply   Email this Page Email this Page






Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
greetings from deep deep south texas linn Member Introductions 8 06-23-2014 01:45 PM
1000 Fingers Pup/Corm and Saba Pup/Corm digdeep Banana Plants Wanted 0 07-15-2011 07:24 PM
Burying bananas rich985 Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer 1 04-18-2010 05:40 PM
How deep in the ground do basjoo corms go? wxman Main Banana Discussion 1 03-17-2009 10:50 PM
Out of ground full corm Southern-Grower Main Banana Discussion 3 09-14-2005 08:44 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:35 PM.





All content © Bananas.org & the respective author.