Attention all Musa-experts

mrbungalow · 10-11-2006, 06:09 AM

Can anyone help identify these species? http://www.trebrown.com/forum/viewto...?t=302#post302

I have suggested that the first 3 pics are some kind of nagensium. The other pics, I have suggested musa flaviflora. The last, some kind of velutina or ornata. "The musacea" at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/ has been useful in ID-ing. But this is by no means correct.

Erlend

PhilMarkey · 10-11-2006, 11:42 AM

Hello everyone, and Hi Erlend. I've just joined this fine forum.

Thought I'd just say that I think Erlend is right about the first one as being Musa Nagensium. We've been calling it the blue banana, because it does look very blue. However, Musa Nagensium is supposed to have dark red stems and central leaf rib. But I think with it having all the visible wax on the plant it does indeed look dark blue. And therefore Musa Nagensium.
We'll have the seeds here soon so that might help identification.
It is vitally important that all species listed for sale on the Trebrown site are correctly identified and the botanically correct names used. This is our most important, underlying policy on the Trebrown site. Your help in identifying these will be most appreciated.

Warm regards to everyone.
Phil

MediaHound · 10-11-2006, 12:19 PM

Hi Phil, thanks for joining

welcome!

Gabe15 · 10-11-2006, 12:33 PM

The first 3 I dont think are Musa nagensium. Musa nagensium has bluish fruit that always points down, not at all like other bananas. Also from pictures I have seen, it has cream/yellow buds, however I suppose it is possible of other color forms, but the fruit is different. Musa nagensium seeds are distinct, they are very large, white and warty. Its hard to get a proper ID just from these pictures, but Musa nagensium is a rather unusual species that is easy to spot and identify.

The second species is very hard to tell from those pictures. Musa flaviflora is pretty much unknown, there are no good descriptions and no known confirmed living plants. However it is possible I suppose.

There is always the possibility for new species as well.

tropicalkid · 10-11-2006, 01:00 PM

Welcome aboard Phil!!!
I really like the plants in the photos, a pointing-down velutina alike!!!, plus rare upright bunch!!!, but the one I really like is the one in the first three photos. Looks to be a tall-growing one!!! I wonder when would you will have seeds or plants available for sale?

Thanks,
Carlos

PhilMarkey · 10-11-2006, 01:43 PM

Thanks guys!

Now I'm getting less convinced than I was.
I'll just add that I don't think the third picture of the second set is part of that set. The flower colouration is different.

The seeds will be here in a couple of weeks Carlos. I hope!

Phil

Gabe15 · 10-11-2006, 01:55 PM

After looking close at the first plant, it seems possible also that it could be Musa nagensium x Musa balbisiana, however dont mark those words, it is just a quick observation. It does however not look to be any pure species.

mrbungalow · 10-11-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

After looking close at the first plant, it seems possible also that it could be Musa nagensium x Musa balbisiana, however dont mark those words, it is just a quick observation. It does however not look to be any pure species.

I agree with Gabe, look at the inflorescence. Doesn't balbisiana have a "stretched" bell like the one in the first pictures? I think it could be nagensiumX. What other species has dark stems, grows huge, and has dark midribs? I was thinking cheesmani or even a cultivar such as champa kala may have been into the picture, but now I am leaning towards nagensiumX.

The second one certainly fits the musa flaviflora-description at "The musacea" very well.

The third one I thought might be velutina or ornata, but apparently it's a very big plant!

Erlend

mrbungalow · 10-11-2006, 02:58 PM

Also, can you tell from the photo if the fruit points down or up? Or what colour it is? Seems I need new spectacles....

PhilMarkey · 10-11-2006, 02:59 PM

Gabe15 has asked me if I have any more pictures.
All I can find are these: http://www.trebrown.com/forum/viewto...?t=302#post304

There is also a new yellow one, which I didn't want to add just yet. Those are the only pictures I have.

Phil

mrbungalow · 10-11-2006, 03:17 PM

Here is the description at "The Musacea" of Musa Nagensium:

Quote:

Trunk 20 ft. and more, suckering. Leaves 10 ft. long, glaucous beneath. Inflorescence drooping. Bracts oblong-lanceolate, lower 8 - 10 in. long, 4 in. broad, uppermost 6 - 7 in. long, nearly 3 in. broad, "Indian red" outside, bright shining orange inside, each enclosing 18 - 20 flowers in two rows. Perianth orange-coloured, 2½ in. long, ½ in. broad, four-lobed; free petal ovate-lanceolate, over 1 in. long, acute. Fruit angled, 5 - 6 in. long, stalked, not recurved. Seeds nearly ½ in. long, 1/3 in. broad.

And this is what they say about Musa balbisiana:

Quote:

Male bud in advanced blooming broadly ovoid to ellipsoidal, the bracts imbricate at the blunt apex. Bracts various shades of purple, broadly ovate, rounded at apex, often greenish or yellow at extreme tip

The photo clearly shows a purple bell. But can we rule out regular cheesmani or cheesmani X balbisiana-hybrid? Cheesmani doesn't get that dark stems, does it?

Gabe15 · 10-11-2006, 07:27 PM

I didnt do enough research when I posted my last answer and I had never seen a photo of Musa cheesmani fruit bunch, however after reading closely the description of M. cheesmani I have, it seems possible the first one is M. cheesmani. However nothing is for sure.

PhilMarkey · 10-13-2006, 03:58 AM

OK! I have some updating to do.

The first one, the black / blue banana: It is found in cold areas at attitudes of 3000 - 5000 feet. Stem height is 20-25 feet tall. The mid ribs of these leaves are deep violet in colour.

The last lot of pictures are mixed up: The pictures of the pink leaves and flowers are Musa velutina. However, the tall banana with the pink fruits on has only very few fruits on each hand. And Yes Gabe, we seem to remember that there are only 3 fruits per hand, but we are trying to confirm that and get some more pictures. That banana is very different (taller) than Musa velutina, which is why it stands out.

All the other pictures (mixed up) are of either yellow flowering bananas, orange flowering or orange/yellow flowering. Several different ones. I think the fruits stay green.

Phil

PhilMarkey · 01-08-2007, 07:30 PM

Well we have finally managed to get these seeds out of Myanmar (Burma). Well 3 of them. All are listed for sale on our www.trebrown.com website.

We've got the black one - having now seen the large brown warty seeds we now think this to be a very dark or black stemmed form of Musa cheesmanii. The stem and leaf-midrib is a very dark reddish brown colour, but the leaves are green. The stem being much darker than the Musa cheesmanii that originate from Assam and Bhutan. We have found no prior reference to this dark form of M. cheesmanii coming from Burma, and we therefore believe these to be the first seeds of this ever to come out of Burma.

We also have the pink flowered and pink leaf-midrib one. This is Musa velutina.

And we also have the yellow flowered and yellow midrib one. But do not have an ID for this one yet. However, the only Yellow flowered banana known from that area is Musa sanguinea, and we have therefore applied this name to it pending better identification.

I've attached some images in the order: Pink, yellow, black. But you can see more images here: http://www.trebrown.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=302

Phil

Tropicallvr · 01-08-2007, 08:06 PM

Hey Phil, looking forward to trying the yellow and the black stemmed cheesemanii.
What is the new Trachycarpus that you have? Is it a new species?
Do you have any pics?
Thanks,
Kyle

PhilMarkey · 01-08-2007, 09:40 PM

Hi Kyle,
It's not a new Trachy, it's a name change. I have found a new Trachy, but this is not it, and I'm not going to publish anything about that this year. I don't want to clutter this board talking about Trachycarpus, e-mail me and I'll explain all about the T. sp. nanital for you.

Gabe now tells me that the yellow banana can't possibly be Musa sanguinea, so we're currently trying to find a new name for it.

Phil

PhilMarkey · 01-09-2007, 06:39 AM

We have now temporarily renamed the yellow flowered banana "Musa sp. New yellow flower" pending better identification. This is changed from the Musa sanguinea that we had it down for.

bigdog · 01-09-2007, 09:42 AM

Awesome, Phil! I'll have to try a couple of those new seeds you have. And please...let us know something soon about the new Trachy!

PhilMarkey · 01-24-2007, 05:13 AM

Hi Guys I now have what we consider to be the definitive update on what all these species are.

The one that I applied the temporary name of ‘Musa New yellow flower’ is in fact the plant with the orange upright bud, and is now confirmed to be Musa aurantiaca. There was some confusion as to which plant these seeds came from, and for a while we thought they came from the waxy-leaved plant with the yellow flower and yellow midrib. That plant has now been confirmed to be the true to type Musa nagensium. Seeds will be here soon. Interestingly the M. nagensium that you are all familiar with originating out of cultivation in India, and which is much darker in various places on the plant, and also has slightly smaller seeds is not the true to type form, and may well be a hybrid.

The black-stemmed plant is a very dark form of Musa cheesmanii.

The Musa velutina is considered to be just that, but the difference is that this plant grows quite a bit larger than the norm.

We also have a new one on its way. Can anyone tell me of a plant from the India/Burma region, which retains a completely green flower throughout? That’s what we’ve apparently got coming.

Of the attached images:
scan0004 is Musa aurantiaca
snap2 is The true to type Musa nagensium

Gabe15 · 01-24-2007, 01:37 PM

About the green one, there are a few species which have green buds. The first that comes to mind is Musa schizocarpa, however this species is native to Papua New Guinea so I think its safe to dismiss that.

The other (more reasonable one) that comes to mind is Musa acuminata ssp. flava (although it is currently found in peninsular Malaysia). It is also possible to be another new variety of Musa acuminata since it tends to be an highly variable species (there are more subspecies and varieties than I care to remember, plus new ones all the time).

Of course, before any reliable ID, pictures are needed, so when they come in it will be easier to ID.

10-11-2006, 06:09 AM	#1 (permalink)
mrbungalow Freezing member mrbungalow's Photo Gallery Location: Bergen, Norway Find me on the map! Zone: 8 Name: Erlend Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 598 BananaBucks : 126,248 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 14 Times Was Thanked 165 Times in 78 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3 Times	Attention all Musa-experts Can anyone help identify these species? http://www.trebrown.com/forum/viewto...?t=302#post302 I have suggested that the first 3 pics are some kind of nagensium. The other pics, I have suggested musa flaviflora. The last, some kind of velutina or ornata. "The musacea" at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~drc/ has been useful in ID-ing. But this is by no means correct. Erlend __________________

10-11-2006, 11:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
PhilMarkey Member Location: Cornwall UK Find me on the map! Zone: 9a / 9b Name: Phil Markey Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 40 BananaBucks : 24,209 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9 Times Was Thanked 83 Times in 26 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Hello everyone, and Hi Erlend. I've just joined this fine forum. Thought I'd just say that I think Erlend is right about the first one as being Musa Nagensium. We've been calling it the blue banana, because it does look very blue. However, Musa Nagensium is supposed to have dark red stems and central leaf rib. But I think with it having all the visible wax on the plant it does indeed look dark blue. And therefore Musa Nagensium. We'll have the seeds here soon so that might help identification. It is vitally important that all species listed for sale on the Trebrown site are correctly identified and the botanically correct names used. This is our most important, underlying policy on the Trebrown site. Your help in identifying these will be most appreciated. Warm regards to everyone. Phil __________________ I'm the seed dealer at www.trebrown.com

10-11-2006, 12:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
MediaHound Tally-Man MediaHound's Photo Gallery Location: Florida Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Jarred Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,273 BananaBucks : 2,469,122 Feedback: 66 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,882 Times Was Thanked 5,106 Times in 1,359 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2,088 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Hi Phil, thanks for joining welcome! __________________ Apologies in advance if I am slow to reply to your PM. I suggest posting in the forums for support if you need something urgent.

10-11-2006, 12:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
Gabe15 Moderator Gabe15's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Find me on the map! Zone: 12 Name: Gabe Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,892 BananaBucks : 13,466,762 Feedback: 5 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1 Times Was Thanked 8,244 Times in 2,201 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts The first 3 I dont think are Musa nagensium. Musa nagensium has bluish fruit that always points down, not at all like other bananas. Also from pictures I have seen, it has cream/yellow buds, however I suppose it is possible of other color forms, but the fruit is different. Musa nagensium seeds are distinct, they are very large, white and warty. Its hard to get a proper ID just from these pictures, but Musa nagensium is a rather unusual species that is easy to spot and identify. The second species is very hard to tell from those pictures. Musa flaviflora is pretty much unknown, there are no good descriptions and no known confirmed living plants. However it is possible I suppose. There is always the possibility for new species as well. __________________ Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

10-11-2006, 01:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
tropicalkid Senior Member tropicalkid's Photo Gallery Location: Durham, North Carolina Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 233 BananaBucks : 212,145 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 0 Times Was Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Welcome aboard Phil!!! I really like the plants in the photos, a pointing-down velutina alike!!!, plus rare upright bunch!!!, but the one I really like is the one in the first three photos. Looks to be a tall-growing one!!! I wonder when would you will have seeds or plants available for sale? Thanks, Carlos

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10-11-2006, 01:43 PM	#6 (permalink)
PhilMarkey Member Location: Cornwall UK Find me on the map! Zone: 9a / 9b Name: Phil Markey Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 40 BananaBucks : 24,209 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9 Times Was Thanked 83 Times in 26 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Thanks guys! Now I'm getting less convinced than I was. I'll just add that I don't think the third picture of the second set is part of that set. The flower colouration is different. The seeds will be here in a couple of weeks Carlos. I hope! Phil __________________ I'm the seed dealer at www.trebrown.com

10-11-2006, 01:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
Gabe15 Moderator Gabe15's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Find me on the map! Zone: 12 Name: Gabe Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,892 BananaBucks : 13,466,762 Feedback: 5 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1 Times Was Thanked 8,244 Times in 2,201 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts After looking close at the first plant, it seems possible also that it could be Musa nagensium x Musa balbisiana, however dont mark those words, it is just a quick observation. It does however not look to be any pure species. __________________ Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

10-11-2006, 02:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
mrbungalow Freezing member mrbungalow's Photo Gallery Location: Bergen, Norway Find me on the map! Zone: 8 Name: Erlend Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 598 BananaBucks : 126,248 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 14 Times Was Thanked 165 Times in 78 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Also, can you tell from the photo if the fruit points down or up? Or what colour it is? Seems I need new spectacles.... __________________

10-11-2006, 02:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
PhilMarkey Member Location: Cornwall UK Find me on the map! Zone: 9a / 9b Name: Phil Markey Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 40 BananaBucks : 24,209 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9 Times Was Thanked 83 Times in 26 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Gabe15 has asked me if I have any more pictures. All I can find are these: http://www.trebrown.com/forum/viewto...?t=302#post304 There is also a new yellow one, which I didn't want to add just yet. Those are the only pictures I have. Phil __________________ I'm the seed dealer at www.trebrown.com

10-11-2006, 07:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
Gabe15 Moderator Gabe15's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Find me on the map! Zone: 12 Name: Gabe Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,892 BananaBucks : 13,466,762 Feedback: 5 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1 Times Was Thanked 8,244 Times in 2,201 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts I didnt do enough research when I posted my last answer and I had never seen a photo of Musa cheesmani fruit bunch, however after reading closely the description of M. cheesmani I have, it seems possible the first one is M. cheesmani. However nothing is for sure. __________________ Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

10-13-2006, 03:58 AM	#13 (permalink)
PhilMarkey Member Location: Cornwall UK Find me on the map! Zone: 9a / 9b Name: Phil Markey Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 40 BananaBucks : 24,209 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9 Times Was Thanked 83 Times in 26 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts OK! I have some updating to do. The first one, the black / blue banana: It is found in cold areas at attitudes of 3000 - 5000 feet. Stem height is 20-25 feet tall. The mid ribs of these leaves are deep violet in colour. The last lot of pictures are mixed up: The pictures of the pink leaves and flowers are Musa velutina. However, the tall banana with the pink fruits on has only very few fruits on each hand. And Yes Gabe, we seem to remember that there are only 3 fruits per hand, but we are trying to confirm that and get some more pictures. That banana is very different (taller) than Musa velutina, which is why it stands out. All the other pictures (mixed up) are of either yellow flowering bananas, orange flowering or orange/yellow flowering. Several different ones. I think the fruits stay green. Phil __________________ I'm the seed dealer at www.trebrown.com

01-08-2007, 08:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
Tropicallvr Member Tropicallvr's Photo Gallery Name: Kyle Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,032 BananaBucks : 571,219 Feedback: 6 / 100% Said "Thanks" 230 Times Was Thanked 414 Times in 163 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 14 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Hey Phil, looking forward to trying the yellow and the black stemmed cheesemanii. What is the new Trachycarpus that you have? Is it a new species? Do you have any pics? Thanks, Kyle

01-08-2007, 09:40 PM	#16 (permalink)
PhilMarkey Member Location: Cornwall UK Find me on the map! Zone: 9a / 9b Name: Phil Markey Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 40 BananaBucks : 24,209 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9 Times Was Thanked 83 Times in 26 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Hi Kyle, It's not a new Trachy, it's a name change. I have found a new Trachy, but this is not it, and I'm not going to publish anything about that this year. I don't want to clutter this board talking about Trachycarpus, e-mail me and I'll explain all about the T. sp. nanital for you. Gabe now tells me that the yellow banana can't possibly be Musa sanguinea, so we're currently trying to find a new name for it. Phil __________________ I'm the seed dealer at www.trebrown.com

01-09-2007, 06:39 AM	#17 (permalink)
PhilMarkey Member Location: Cornwall UK Find me on the map! Zone: 9a / 9b Name: Phil Markey Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 40 BananaBucks : 24,209 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9 Times Was Thanked 83 Times in 26 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts We have now temporarily renamed the yellow flowered banana "Musa sp. New yellow flower" pending better identification. This is changed from the Musa sanguinea that we had it down for. __________________ I'm the seed dealer at www.trebrown.com

01-09-2007, 09:42 AM	#18 (permalink)
bigdog ******* bigdog's Photo Gallery** Location: Gainesville, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 8b Name: Frank Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,004 BananaBucks : 914,936 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 218 Times Was Thanked 1,790 Times in 504 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 131 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts Awesome, Phil! I'll have to try a couple of those new seeds you have. And please...let us know something soon about the new Trachy!

01-24-2007, 01:37 PM	#20 (permalink)
Gabe15 Moderator Gabe15's Photo Gallery Location: Oahu, Hawaii Find me on the map! Zone: 12 Name: Gabe Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3,892 BananaBucks : 13,466,762 Feedback: 5 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1 Times Was Thanked 8,244 Times in 2,201 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times	Re: Attention all Musa-experts About the green one, there are a few species which have green buds. The first that comes to mind is Musa schizocarpa, however this species is native to Papua New Guinea so I think its safe to dismiss that. The other (more reasonable one) that comes to mind is Musa acuminata ssp. flava (although it is currently found in peninsular Malaysia). It is also possible to be another new variety of Musa acuminata since it tends to be an highly variable species (there are more subspecies and varieties than I care to remember, plus new ones all the time). Of course, before any reliable ID, pictures are needed, so when they come in it will be easier to ID. __________________ Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

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