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JCDerrick
09-26-2008, 10:52 PM
I just started looking into these guys tonight since my wife and I have considered trying to market and sell hardy bananas here on a small scale. There's certainly interest in them around here and most folks seemingly have no clue how many types we can grow here in central SC. My family does a lot of garden and flower sales (mostly a family thing that's grown over the years) and I think it has potential to sell hardier bananas too. Maybe even some Alocasia too, but that's a later thing.

I've heard a lot of good things about Agri-Starts. I assume that since you have to buy in trays of 72 that you'd almost immediately want to transfer all the small 72 bananas into larger 4-6" pots for maturing. While I'm fascinated by the TC process and have done a lot of reading on it, I certainly don't want to built my own lab, even on a small scale. I think it'd be much more cost effective to go to a whole seller like A-S.

Anyone have thoughts or tips they can share on this? Or thoughts on the company in general when buying small scale like this? I figure we're a good year or so away from trying this idea out, and would like any advice from others who might have tried similar ventures.

Also, I'm surprise more folks don't try this on eBay (or maybe they do). You see a lot of sellers with 4-6" potted bananas going for $3-6 a plant. That's a decent mark up I think considering.

harveyc
09-26-2008, 11:52 PM
John, you may want to PM Sandy to make sure she sees this post as she's been selling TC bananas. I bought some of hers when she held a sale a couple of months ago.

I'm sure many of the eBay banana sellers do get TC plants fro Agri-Starts. I think the biggest potential would to TC something that they aren't doing (yet), but that's just my $.02.

Check the old posts on Siam Ruby here. Brian is a member here and he's the guy that got Agri-Starts to put that into TC and it did very well until the market got somewhat saturated and it's still doing better than most varieties.

JCDerrick
09-27-2008, 12:00 AM
Thanks Harvey. Can you give me a heads up on Sandy's username? I'll definitely send her a PM. I appreciate it.

harveyc
09-27-2008, 12:03 AM
Sure, Bananas.org - View Profile: sandy0225 (http://www.bananas.org/member-sandy0225.html)

D_&_T
09-27-2008, 12:17 AM
Sandy0225 is her ID............. she uses a different lab than A-S, plus some from them I believe.

chong
09-27-2008, 01:11 AM
Sandy0225 is her ID............. she uses a different lab than A-S, plus some from them I believe.

Do any of you know of any other TC Lab than Agristarts? The only other one that I know of is Oglesby International. I have bought from both of them before, and Oglesby only does TC on Musella and SDC-which they hold a Copyright on, as far as bananas go.

Agristarts prices have gone up 25% over the last year. And I used to deal with Ashley before, but her name isn't there anymore.(She's still on the office contact list, but not on the Availability order page.) She was pretty accommodating when it comes to buying small orders.

Richard
09-27-2008, 01:21 AM
... While I'm fascinated by the TC process and have done a lot of reading on it, I certainly don't want to built my own lab, even on a small scale. I think it'd be much more cost effective to go to a whole seller like A-S. ...


Correct. I found Agri-Starts (along with another local TC firm) very easy to communicate with via email, given a day turn-around per message. They were also willing to propagate TC's from a fruit-producing cultivar sent to them, provided you pre-pay for a couple of trays up front. This is very reasonable considering most of their business comes from orders of 10,000 to 1 million plants.

I've had great success "growing on" TC's by first putting them in a 4" peat pot with a soil-less medium for a few weeks under artificial light, then planting the whole peat pot in a 15 gallon pot under 40% shade (cheap plastic screen door material). I feed them 10-20-30 fertilizer during this period, then take the shade off and start them on 20-5-30. The corms have gone from pea-size to potato-size in 4 months.

D_&_T
09-27-2008, 01:32 AM
Don't remember off hand whom she said.

Randy4ut
09-27-2008, 06:53 AM
JC,
Just wanted to let you know that Agri Starts will let you split a tray if you don't want 72 plantlets of the same variety. Half trays are the smallest quanity you can order, if my memory is correct.

Tropicallvr
09-27-2008, 08:59 AM
Correct. I found Agri-Starts (along with another local TC firm) very easy to communicate with via email, given a day turn-around per message. They were also willing to propagate TC's from a fruit-producing cultivar sent to them, provided you pre-pay for a couple of trays up front. This is very reasonable considering most of their business comes from orders of 10,000 to 1 million plants.


So you can send them a banana plant that isn't being TC'd and they will TC it for you, just as long as you buy a few trays up front. That sounds like a really good deal, I wonder if they then reserve the right to use it for themselves afterward?

Richard
09-27-2008, 10:38 AM
So you can send them a banana plant that isn't being TC'd and they will TC it for you, just as long as you buy a few trays up front. That sounds like a really good deal, I wonder if they then reserve the right to use it for themselves afterward?

:confused: I'm confused by your question regarding "reserve the right". Labs are interested in acquiring plant varieties that are commercially viable (bananas or otherwise). Buying a quantity up front covers their labor cost of extracting viable tissue and placing it in their collection. From that point, generating a few trays has essentially no overhead cost for them. On the otherhand, if you are referring to plant patent rights, they cannot legally TC (asexually reproduce) a patented plant without written permission from the patent holder, often involving royalty payments. Some TC companies exist exclusively to reproduce plants for patent holders. If you have a plant that you think is worth patenting, you should do that first.

Tropicallvr
09-27-2008, 10:48 AM
JC derrick, I hope that works out for you, sounds like a good idea. Maybe M.sikkimensis, and M.lasiocarpa would be some good picks, also that cold hardy heliconia 'Fire and Ice' is pretty nice.
Thanks Richard, that makes sense. I don't have any that I can patent, but maybe a couple that would be worth TCing.
After checking out their web site I noticed that Heliconia 'Fire and Ice' is TM. How can they do that with a wild found H.schiedeana species that was collected in Habitat, and they seem to have done something similar with M. 'Siam Ruby". From what Gabe said in a earlier thread, someone is making alot of money from Royalties off that plant.
Sorry for hyjacking, just got me thinking.

JCDerrick
09-27-2008, 10:49 AM
JC,
Just wanted to let you know that Agri Starts will let you split a tray if you don't want 72 plantlets of the same variety. Half trays are the smallest quanity you can order, if my memory is correct.

Thanks Randy, that would be even better for us. 72 of one variety to start might be too many of the same type.

JCDerrick
09-27-2008, 10:53 AM
Correct. I found Agri-Starts (along with another local TC firm) very easy to communicate with via email, given a day turn-around per message. They were also willing to propagate TC's from a fruit-producing cultivar sent to them, provided you pre-pay for a couple of trays up front. This is very reasonable considering most of their business comes from orders of 10,000 to 1 million plants.

I've had great success "growing on" TC's by first putting them in a 4" peat pot with a soil-less medium for a few weeks under artificial light, then planting the whole peat pot in a 15 gallon pot under 40% shade (cheap plastic screen door material). I feed them 10-20-30 fertilizer during this period, then take the shade off and start them on 20-5-30. The corms have gone from pea-size to potato-size in 4 months.

So I'm looking for this type (http://www.toptropicals.com/people/seeds/pics/peat/peat_pot-2.jpg) of pot? What kind of soil mix do you use? I use a combo of perlite, vermiculite and a nice organic topic soil for my larger potted plants, but these are so much smaller.

Also re: the peat pots. Assuming I tried my hand at eBay again (it's been a while), do you think I could forgo the peat pot step and go directly to a 4-6" pot with soil for some plants? I probably would want to keep any eBay plants small - under 16"

The peat pots idea is great though for the local market where they will want bigger plants though. Thanks for the great tip on that. My growing season is long enough that if I start in late March or early April I bet I could have these ready at a nice size by no later than the end of July or start of August.

D_&_T
09-27-2008, 10:55 AM
John they spilt!

from there site:
AGRI-STARTS, INC.: Shipping (http://www.agristarts.com/shipping.htm)
Product is shipped in 72 cell-packs unless indicated.
Assorted trays fees are $18.00 per 72-cell pack tray.
An Assorted tray is only sold in increments of:
18-18-18-18
24-24-24
36-36

JCDerrick
09-27-2008, 10:58 AM
18-18-18-18 would be perfect to get us started. I'm definitely going to have to start thinking about this next spring. I'm sure I can find several hardy types from their list. Thanks for all the help guys.

stumpy4700
09-27-2008, 10:58 AM
Just out of curiosity, how long does it take them to TC a plant?

D_&_T
09-27-2008, 11:10 AM
Here is where Gabe talked about it only few weeks!

http://www.bananas.org/f260/my-home-tissue-culture-progress-4954.html

Tropicallvr
09-27-2008, 11:31 AM
So I'm looking for this type (http://www.toptropicals.com/people/seeds/pics/peat/peat_pot-2.jpg) of pot? What kind of soil mix do you use? I use a combo of perlite, vermiculite and a nice organic topic soil for my larger potted plants, but these are so much smaller.

Also re: the peat pots. Assuming I tried my hand at eBay again (it's been a while), do you think I could forgo the peat pot step and go directly to a 4-6" pot with soil for some plants? I probably would want to keep any eBay plants small - under 16"

The peat pots idea is great though for the local market where they will want bigger plants though. Thanks for the great tip on that. My growing season is long enough that if I start in late March or early April I bet I could have these ready at a nice size by no later than the end of July or start of August.

Steuwe and sons has great square pots that are good for conserving space. They are used alot by palm tree growers, but I was thinking about ordering their MT46 for banana plants- http://www.stuewe.com/products/minitreepots.html

Richard
09-27-2008, 11:32 AM
Just out of curiosity, how long does it take them to TC a plant?

It depends on the company and the type of plant. When I inquired of AgriStarts about bananas, they said 3-4 months.

So I'm looking for this type (http://www.toptropicals.com/people/seeds/pics/peat/peat_pot-2.jpg) of pot?

In my experience, peat pots are much cheaper at a local nursery than online when you include the shipping charges.


What kind of soil mix do you use?

I use a commercial soil-less mix, mainly because it is pre-sanitized. For example, Jiffy Mix is sold right next to the Jiffy Peat Pots at most nurseries and big box stores.

... do you think I could forgo the peat pot step and go directly to a 4-6" pot with soil for some plants? I probably would want to keep any eBay plants small - under 16"

Your customers will appreciate receiving a hardy corm of significant size. You can always chop off the pseudostem to 16" length for shipping. If you are just going to take TC's and "grow them on" individually for sale as larger plants, I suggest you consider the long troughs used in hydroponics -- but without the corms immersed in aquaculture. Use a natural or artificial "sand" as if you are growing carrots indoors.

bencelest
09-27-2008, 12:33 PM
Correct. I found Agri-Starts (along with another local TC firm) very easy to communicate with via email, given a day turn-around per message. They were also willing to propagate TC's from a fruit-producing cultivar sent to them, provided you pre-pay for a couple of trays up front. This is very reasonable considering most of their business comes from orders of 10,000 to 1 million plants.

I've had great success "growing on" TC's by first putting them in a 4" peat pot with a soil-less medium for a few weeks under artificial light, then planting the whole peat pot in a 15 gallon pot under 40% shade (cheap plastic screen door material). I feed them 10-20-30 fertilizer during this period, then take the shade off and start them on 20-5-30. The corms have gone from pea-size to potato-size in 4 months.

Richard:
I got interested when you mentioned fert you use 20-5-30.
from your old post.
Is this available in retail stores?

JCDerrick
09-27-2008, 12:35 PM
Thanks, I'll do some research on the hydroponics troughs. I might could build one even that would suit my purposes.

And good point on just cutting the p-stems down. If it came to a taller plant or larger corm, I'd definitely go for the later.

I also saw Gabe's YouTube video on the TC (or I think it was his). But it says there is a full video of it somewhere on this forum. Can anyone give me a link to that? I've search with no avail. I'd like to see the process in more detail.

Chironex
09-27-2008, 01:09 PM
:confused: I'm confused by your question regarding "reserve the right". Labs are interested in acquiring plant varieties that are commercially viable (bananas or otherwise). Buying a quantity up front covers their labor cost of extracting viable tissue and placing it in their collection. From that point, generating a few trays has essentially no overhead cost for them. On the otherhand, if you are referring to plant patent rights, they cannot legally TC (asexually reproduce) a patented plant without written permission from the patent holder, often involving royalty payments. Some TC companies exist exclusively to reproduce plants for patent holders. If you have a plant that you think is worth patenting, you should do that first.

Speaking of patented banana cultivars, does anyone know of a list of them? It would be great to know what is patented and what is not, also whom to contact about TC'ing rights or royalty payments.

harveyc
09-27-2008, 01:18 PM
After checking out their web site I noticed that Heliconia 'Fire and Ice' is TM. How can they do that with a wild found H.schiedeana species that was collected in Habitat, and they seem to have done something similar with M. 'Siam Ruby". From what Gabe said in a earlier thread, someone is making alot of money from Royalties off that plant.
Sorry for hyjacking, just got me thinking.

It's the name that is trademarked, not the plant. Many nurseries coming up with marketing names for plants and it's the name that is trademarked. I big burger corporation trademarked their name so that someone with the same last name can't even open up a mom and pop burger joint and use their name as the big company has developed value in that name.

Someone else can sell the same plant but can't call it that.

Other things done in commercial trade include the licensing of a plant. It lasts forever unlike a patent as you can never own the plant. You buy a license to have the right to grow the plant. Such licenses often even limit how you can market the fruit (usually only through the company that granted you the license or some that has partnered with them).

Richard
09-27-2008, 05:24 PM
You can also patent plant cultivars. In doing so, others must obtain your permission to propagate the plant asexually. I wouldn't be surprised if there are over a million plant patents. The grower "Monrovia" certainly has their share.

Patent rights for plants expire just like other patents. If a plant or invention has been in general circulation for awhile without patent, it is ineligible for patent. The legal (case law) definition for "heirloom" plant variety relies in part on patent eligibility. Under court precedence, an heirloom is a plant that (1) reproduces true to seed and (2) the patent period has expired. This is why you see some previously patented Burpee tomato varieties now marketed by third parties as heirloom tomatoes.

Tropicallvr
09-27-2008, 05:43 PM
Speaking of patented banana cultivars, soes anyone know of a list of them? It would be great to know what is patented and what is not, also whom to contact about TC'ing rights or royalty payments.

Musa Enano Gigantea is patented by Monrovia.

So I wonder what the story is with Siam Ruby.

harveyc
09-27-2008, 08:01 PM
Kyle, as I wrote above, I believe Siam Ruby is just a trademark name and that means that nobody else can use that name without permission. It does not restrict propagation of the plant itself. There was another issue with Siam Ruby in that Brian is the one that submitted it to Agri-Starts for tissue culture, as I recall, and he had exclusive rights to it. After a while, he had more than he needed so he granted permission for Agri-Starts to sell it to others. I'm pretty sure I'm recalling the details correctly, but can't be certain as I'm feeling old and tired right now. If propagation was restricted, each plant would be tagged notifying you of that.

I wonder how a patent on a banana plant works since they basically propagate themselves with new pups.

Some other trademark names are assigned to pomegranate varieties which are freely available from the USDA repository out of Davis. Dave Wilson Nursery has assigned names of fabrics to six varieties and created quite some confusion. Through 2006 they sold 'Elf' with the name of "Garnet Sash" (their trademark name) but then in 2007 they dropped 'Elf' and replaced it with the very desirable 'Parfianka' (sometimes spelled 'Parfyanka'). Some people that bought Garnet Sash don't know what they actually bought since some nurseries carried over stock from 2006 into 2007.

bigdog
09-27-2008, 11:51 PM
Tony Avent of Plant Delights got 'Siam Ruby' into tc also, from a different lab than Agri-Starts. He still sold it under the name 'Siam Ruby', so there must not be a trademark on the name.

Tropicallvr
09-28-2008, 08:17 AM
It's Musa tapo right? Or a form of it. Maybe Musa tapo 'Siam Ruby'.

bdollarbill
09-28-2008, 08:22 AM
Great minds think alike I guess, I have been toying with the very idea yuou just posted, Only I was aiming to get a bunch of guys here on the B.org togeteher to place an order that would be mostly split up among the group & then sell balance on ebay craigslist etc. to pay for next order or s&H etc. Not a for profit idea but a build your plant stock for less money idea. Let me know by PM if you decide to go ahead with setting up a deal, maybe we could run the business thru you & you could forward plants to us. Just tossing around some ideas right now nothing serious as our seasonn is ending here in NC pretty soon, maybe this spring someting could be worked on.

Bill

JCDerrick
09-28-2008, 10:58 AM
Definitely, it'd be late spring at the soonest for me too - I need to test the local market with all the sword pups I've been splitting. If that goes well, then I'm probably gonna give this a try. I like the idea of also splitting them up for building stock too.

I just think this would be fun - at least something worth trying on a small scale :) Plus now I know NOT to sell very small TC's on eBay, but to let them mature enough in an controlled environment here first.

harveyc
09-28-2008, 11:30 AM
While you're at it, you might consider getting TR Hovey papaya from AgriStarts and maybe Sugarloaf pineapple as both are popular items.

I once contacted AgriStarts about the TR Hovey and I was told that they had quite a backlog of orders. I would suggest that the time for planning for next spring is now.

chong
09-28-2008, 05:35 PM
While you're at it, you might consider getting TR Hovey papaya from AgriStarts and maybe Sugarloaf pineapple as both are popular items.

I once contacted AgriStarts about the TR Hovey and I was told that they had quite a backlog of orders. I would suggest that the time for planning for next spring is now.

Harvey,
Is that why A-S doesn't list TR Hovey papaya in their availability list? Last time I talked to Ashley Johnson about that plant, she told me that they were not doing any TC'ing of the pant anytime soon. She didn't say that there was a backlog. Do you remember who you talked to? Maybe, I can get on the waiting list.

Thanks.

Richard
12-04-2010, 12:08 AM
Just received these 5 flats: Sharp's Blue blueberry, Vincent & Tomuri Kiwi, Colocasia 'Midori Sour', TR Hovey Papaya.

http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/image_gallery/Agri-Starts_plugs_2010-12-03_400x200.jpg

:woohoonaner:

Richard
12-24-2010, 09:48 PM
Today I moved the 5 flats of TC plugs into 4-inch pots in my propagation bed:

http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/image_gallery/Prop_bed_with_plugs_300x400.jpg

:)

Darkman
12-24-2010, 11:33 PM
Today I moved the 5 flats of TC plugs into 4-inch pots in my propagation bed:

http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/image_gallery/Prop_bed_with_plugs_300x400.jpg

:)

Richard what controller are you using and what heads and settings.

Richard
12-25-2010, 12:21 AM
Richard what controller are you using and what heads and settings.

This propagation bed is for starting seeds, rooting cuttings, and transplanting plugs.

The controller is barely visible in the bottom center of my photo. Here's a better picture from the manufacturer:
http://www.mortonproducts.com/images/electronicleaf.jpg
You can purchase them inexpensively at this site: Grower's Nursery Supply - Electronic Leaf Mist Controller (http://www.growers-inc.com/11ph-elecleaf.html)

The heads are Netafim 4-way with fogger caps. They are attached to 1/2 inch threaded pipe via a Netafim barb and a black 1/2-inch-to-barb coupler made by Irradel.
http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/image_gallery/Netafim_head_400x400.jpg

I only operate the Leaf in the daytime. Otherwise there are no "settings" -- it simply turns on the foggers when needed. There is also a heating cable snaking across the bottom of the bed in 4 inch intervals. It is set at 60 degrees (temperature probe in soil) to provide a temperate environment at night. The entire bed is lined with pond liner, although there are drains at 2 foot intervals on a grid.

Capitum
12-25-2010, 12:55 AM
I was actually putting together an order for Agristarts, and was going to limit my order just because I couldn't find any local banana folks (Seattle area) to go in with me. If anyone is planning an order and wants smaller numbers of plants/larger number of varieties, we can coordinate and make sure we don't all order the same varieties and do even trades (same number of plants, each pay their own shipping, something like that). I guess it would also be limited to people living in states that allow banana shipping (my state allows it as long as they are bareroot)

My desired varieties from them is any of about 15 different varieties they have (all smaller edibles), plus I'm interested in the dwarf papaya. I can share that list via PM with anyone interested in coordinating orders.

On my own I was going to limit myself to 2 split flats, which would probably leave me with 7 bananas and the papaya.
[edited: Kiwi removed, Thank You to Richard for pointing out that this variety wasn't climate appropriate for me :) ]

PM me if you want to order your own flat and do some trading!

Thanks,
Keith

Darkman
12-25-2010, 11:41 AM
This propagation bed is for starting seeds, rooting cuttings, and transplanting plugs.

The controller is barely visible in the bottom center of my photo. Here's a better picture from the manufacturer:
http://www.mortonproducts.com/images/electronicleaf.jpg
You can purchase them inexpensively at this site: Grower's Nursery Supply - Electronic Leaf Mist Controller (http://www.growers-inc.com/11ph-elecleaf.html)

The heads are Netafim 4-way with fogger caps. They are attached to 1/2 inch threaded pipe via a Netafim barb and a black 1/2-inch-to-barb coupler made by Irradel.
http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/image_gallery/Netafim_head_400x400.jpg

I only operate the Leaf in the daytime. Otherwise there are no "settings" -- it simply turns on the foggers when needed. There is also a heating cable snaking across the bottom of the bed in 4 inch intervals. It is set at 60 degrees (temperature probe in soil) to provide a temperate environment at night. The entire bed is lined with pond liner, although there are drains at 2 foot intervals on a grid.

Richard thanks for the great information. The other day while doing some dehoarding I came across a water bed heater complete with sensor bulb and thermostat. I don't remember what the range was on it but I think there should be someway to use this to build a propogation bed. some of the controllers I've heard of allow you to set the frequency and duration of the mist.

Richard
12-25-2010, 03:42 PM
The other day while doing some dehoarding I came across a water bed heater complete with sensor bulb and thermostat. I don't remember what the range was on it but I think there should be someway to use this to build a propogation bed.

Yes, just include in your design a slant or some means of preventing water from pooling under the plant trays.

Some of the controllers I've heard of allow you to set the frequency and duration of the mist.

There are many options available. You don't need a controller that is specific to a mist-head, just something compatible with a 24-volt irrigation valve. At the consumer level, I think the Rainbird SST Series (http://www.rainbird.com/homeowner/products/timers/SSTindoor.htm) is the best product on the market.

Darkman
12-25-2010, 09:59 PM
Yes, just include in your design a slant or some means of preventing water from pooling under the plant trays.

I was tossing around laying a pond liner over the top. That should stop any moisture from getting there.

There are many options available. You don't need a controller that is specific to a mist-head, just something compatible with a 24-volt irrigation valve. At the consumer level, I think the Rainbird SST Series (http://www.rainbird.com/homeowner/products/timers/SSTindoor.htm) is the best product on the market.

You didn't mention anything about filters before the misters. Do you use them? Thanks for the Rainbird tip.

Richard
12-26-2010, 01:33 AM
I was tossing around laying a pond liner over the top. That should stop any moisture from getting there.

Ok, but the issue is not protecting the heater but instead making sure that water drains away and does not stay pooled under the trays. If so, you will have unhappy plants and other problems.

You didn't mention anything about filters before the misters. Do you use them? Thanks for the Rainbird tip.

With my water supply filtering is not a concern. Get a Netafim catalog -- it will tell you recommended water quality and filters for each kind of emitter.

Darkman
12-26-2010, 08:00 PM
Ok, but the issue is not protecting the heater but instead making sure that water drains away and does not stay pooled under the trays. If so, you will have unhappy plants and other problems.

Understood. Off level bed lets water drain away. That makes sense.

With my water supply filtering is not a concern. Get a Netafim catalog -- it will tell you recommended water quality and filters for each kind of emitter.

Thanks I'll order a catalog.