Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I am a relatively new gardener. I started about three months ago and am still learning tons. I have gotten the Citrus "itch", ok that didn't sound good. And I was wondering who else is growing Citrus and what kinds, and if you could share some basic info or pics of your garden.

I have:
tangerine tree (9 inches tall)
Meyer lemon tree (10 inches tall, but bush form, with buds)
Nugami Kumquat tree (24 inches tall, has four fruit on them, waiting to ripen)
Small Navel orange variety (14 inches tall, with small buds)

Please share if you can and show the rest of us your varieties and how you're growing your plants. Anyone had fruits on their citrus plants already and tried eating them? I live in Massachusetts so anything that is somewhat hardy and can be grown indoors I am willing to try.

I will share pictures when I get home.
I have some on my blog: Sunroom Gardening

Thanks!

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I am growing every type of citrus. Here is a guide I wrote for gardeners:

Guide to Common Citrus

Keep in mind that citrus grow from seed do not produce fruit that is true-to-type. Seedlings on the other hand can make good root stock to graft a scion of the true variety onto.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Tommy, I'm growing a dozen or so citrus, mainly focusing on mandarins, some navels, etc. and a Nordman kumquat. There is a very good citrus forum at Citrus Growers Forum :: Index with members from around the U.S. worth looking into.

Richard, I'm looking to start a debate but many citrus seedlings are true to type. Nucellar seedlings are what allow rootstock to be grown from seed but the same principle allows many edible varieties to be grown from seed, but it's often 7 years or more before they bear fruit.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

thanks! but I like the bananas.org people lol
I'd like to hear the debate myself.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

It is so funny you mention this. I got one from my work (a Meyer lemon) and it bloomed like crazy. I have been hand pollinating and babying it the best I can under grow lights. It gets liquid seaweed with iron (to lower the pH), along with other supplements and food. It dropped most of its fruit but here is what remains!
[IMG][/IMG]
I have had a couple of mealybugs show up, but I have been treating them with alcohol on q tips and wiping the leaves with room temp water afterwards.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

that's awesome, hope mine will continue to grow. my buds are growing.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

You get the same genotype, but not the same phenotype -- which is of course what counts in citrus cultivars. To paraphrase: if you grow seed from a self-pollinated edible citrus, you will get edible fruit but not the cultivar that the breeder choose for propagation.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Be sure to give it the proper balance of potash.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

My wife says our Meyer Lemon tree produces the best lemonade in the history of the world. I am impressed at the size and juiciness of the fruit although I am allergic to it. It is pretty maintenance free for us in Z9b. Hope yours are a success.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

That's ok. Feel free to discuss it with one of the geneticists at the UCR Citrus Research Center.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

You apparently mis-understood my post. Please do not interpret a disagreement of fact as intimidation, insult, or insistence on one way of doing things -- none was intended.

Please chill out. There is no justification for adopting the persona of a Flame Warrior over the discussion here.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I have found one space in the room that gets more sunlight.
If you had a choice , sherry, would the citrus or bananas benefit more from that spot?
I ask also because my kumquat fruits are there and more sunlight might help them ripen


Thanks

Tom

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

This is completely uncivil and uncalled for. Please recuse yourself.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Is there some reference online that you can give that relates to what you wrote above? I'd like to read it.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

By the way, I tried to grow three "Sumo" seeds last year but they seemed to be albino seedlings and died. Only one sprout from each of the two seeds emerged.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I have a meyer lemon in my house. The humidity is around 10 and it dropped all its leaves. I'm pretty much ignoring it in my basement to get it out of the light while the humidity is so low. I heard that lots of peoples trees loose their leaves over the winter because of the cold and drop in humidity. I'll have to see if it comes back to life in the summer.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

You'll have to visit/contact UCR yourself or speak with my neighbor.

All "citrus" are in the tribe Aurantieae, but many are not in the genus Citrus. Not all Aurantieae are capable of nucellar embryony.

For a layperson to distinguish embryonic seed types in a store-bought fruit is problematic at best, and assumes a lot about the pollination of that individual fruit. For anyone to obtain seeds from a seedless variety is intractable.

In cases where nucellar seeds are used for propagation, the growers always go back to the same mother plant to avoid phenotype drift.

Personally, I think it is cheaper in terms of time and labor to purchase a known citrus cultivar from an online seller like Four Winds Growers than to try to raise a home fruit plant from seed. On the otherhand, if the goal is just to have fun, then go for it!

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I know some folks do it for fun and other times because the don't have access to budwood. Seedless citrus sometimes have a few seeds such as the Sumo (Dekopan) fruit I got last year. I hope to get budwood of Dekopan in maybe a year if it becomes available as planned but trying the seeds was a fun attempt in the meantime.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

For those of us who grew up yearly tasting fruits from the mother plants in Rubidoux, Redlands, and Exeter -- there can be noticeable taste differences between "the" cultivar and seedlings, along with nth-generation grafts. My aunt in particular would give us all a serious scolding! Of course she was Howard Frost's niece.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Fighters to your corners please.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Hi tom. Wow thats low humidity. You should try some misting it has worked well for me.
But yes in a couple of months the weather will start improving.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

What were you doing, Richard, that your aunt scolded you over?

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Yes, I agree. Keep in mind that Thornless Key Lime and Mexican Thornless are the same plant.

I think you misread that. I was referring to my aunt scolding anyone who claimed a citrus seedling was identical in taste to the parent. Of course, the basis for her comparisons were either the selected individual from Rubidoux or Exeter, or a grow-out of cuttings from those trees. I suspect the orchard docents at UCR would tell you the same. :)

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I am giving it tomato food, as it is the only thing i have right now that is even close to appropriate, in addition to seaweed, big bloom, and mycorrhyzae. it is under grow lights and I most it occasionally with lukewarm water. Trying to take whatever help I can get and not "over baby" it at the same time.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

The tomato food is already has significant phosphate, I recommend you stop feeding it big bloom which just piles on more. The seaweed extract is a good choice: it functions as a plant hormone (gibberellic acid) which promotes more activity in the mode the plant is currently in. The mycorrhizae should be applied to the soil where it will contact roots within 24 hours. High quantities of phosphates kill mycorrhizae, so there's another reason to stop feeding with big bloom. Otherwise, soil inoculated with microbes need not be inoculated again for several years.

Citrus perform well with N, P, K in the ratios of 3:1:2. For example, 9-3-6 and 28-8-18 have those proportions. To complement your tomato food and get near those ratios, I recommend you use equal parts tomato food and fish emulsion -- that is, for each quantity of tomato food you currently use, also add the same quantity of fish emulsion.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

so i've been getting some chewing on my leaves, mainly near the middle and not on the edges. I put some flat beer and some vegetable oil near it as I hear that might kill the insect thats chewing it. Does anyone else know how to ge rid of bugs on meyer lemon trees? Its not aphids, or mites, it could be a caterpillar, or earwig or something else. I believe it came in the soil that it was shipped in. Please help me get rid of it with some suggestions.

Thanks,
T

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

If you are sure it is not spider mites, then get a bottle of either BT or Spinosad. Both of these are simply bacteria and bacteria-poop in a bottle. The bacteria attack soft-bodied insects and their larvae, and their excrement is toxic to their prey as well. Since you only have a few small plants, I'd recommend the ready-to-use type.

If you think mites might be a problem later on, then instead get a product that contains these 3 ingredients: (a) pyrethrin -- a plant extract from african chrysanthemums, (b) piperonyl butoxide -- distilled from sassafras extract, and (c) a surfactant such as aloe or neem oil. There are several brands with these compounds; for example the "Green Light" brand produces Neem II and Fruit Tree Spray.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

The other night I could of sworn I saw something crawling in there. If I have the nerve I'll check tonight and catch it somehow and throw it outside. I'm pretty sure it came with the plant.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I have kumquats that I have grown from seed:



And I have a good size bush of Meyers lemon in my garage for the winter.

I have blood orange



and red grapefruit I started from seed also:


~JaNan

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Well, the tomato food is an organic granular type (NPK- 7-5-3), so I felt a supplement of big bloom every other watering could help keep more constant levels of phosphate available to the plant since the tomato food will break down and become available much more slowly. Also, the actual NPK percentages are so low I was under the impression (also I have been told this by a fox farm rep) that the benefits are more in micronutrients than the NPK. It is interesting that you mention high levels will kill micorrhyzae. Is that because it affects the soil pH? Plus, all of the label instructions, regardless of company, recommend reinnoculation on a regular basis for their mycorrhyzae supplements. Is this just to sell more product?
The seaweed I apply for exactly the reasons you mention, but I have stayed away from fish emulsion because its NPK is a little high on the nitrogen side. Are there additional benefits aside from NPK?

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

The NPK numbers are percentages by weight, so it is the ratios between the N, P, and K that matter when choosing a product for a plant. So for example, your 7-5-3 is equivalent in N-P-K to a formula that is 21-15-9 -- except that the latter is more concentrated.

By the way, in terms of tomato food 7-5-3 is a poor formulation because the ratio of potash to nitrogen is too low. A better choice is a formula with the potash level at about 1.5 times that of the nitrogen -- or use a potash supplement with the product you have.

But anyway, back to the topic of feeding your citrus. :)
Citrus benefit from N, P, K ratios of 3:1:2; i.e., 2/3 as much potash in comparison to nitrogen. Now your "tomato" fertilizer is surprisingly low in potash, so it was my error to recommend additional nitrogen via fish emulsion. However, more phosphate is definitely not needed.

High concentrations of phosphate in soil are toxic to mycorrhizae. This is one reason why dosage is key in fertilizer applications. When people worry about a formula that is 10-30-10 being overall too "high", they have misunderstood. The reality is that it is equivalent in N-P-K to 1-3-1 -- just 10 times more concentrated. So if proper dosage is used the phosphate level in one is no more harmful than the other.

In your case the issue is that the 7-5-3 is already "out of balance" for citrus in terms of phosphate. Adding more via a bloom formula is a poor choice for your citrus and puts the soil biotics at risk.

In many cases -- yes. Now for annual plants -- if the plants and roots are removed at the end of the season from the soil then you may also be removing your mycorrhizae population. Typically some is left behind on root hairs. I suppose a sales person could argue that replacement is necessary because of possible death from phosphate concentrations -- but I've never heard the statement.

No. And I'll add that the public has been oversold on the concept of "additional benefits" from products. Certainly there are many benefits from having a healthy soil and I make great use of them. However, there is also such a thing as a soil that is too healthy -- to the point that the biotics in the soil are consuming and not passing on a significant amount of the nutrients being applied and due to increased populations, feeding on your plant root material as well. A common example is someone growing tomatoes in basically compost and having trouble with root nematodes. If instead the soil contained a reasonable amount of fine gravels and the nutrients were balanced in terms of secondaries and micros -- then the nematodes would not be thriving.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Thank you for the additional information. Quite a bit of my info comes from the labels and the product reps themselves (you should see the fox farm application schedules and the fact that they recommend two different types of mycorrhyzal supplements to be used together, with the same species of mycorryhzae). I try to do ad much research on my own as possible (I own quite a library of organic plant care books) to prove or disprove what they tell me. I have asked the rep specifically why anyone would need one over the other, or even both, and all I get are vague answers about maintaining levels of the organisms in the soil (not just for annuals) because they die off and must be replaced. Again, this seems like they are trying to sell product.

The tomato fertilizer is from Doctor Earth. The balance did seem strange to me, again, but I keep getting the same answers about "added benefits for fruiting plants". The same is said for the fox farm Big Bloom, which has percentages of 0.01-0.3-0.7. I am starting to feel a little jaded on these products now.

Anyway, because I am big on research, can you recommend any books that address growing citrus (especially in containers)? Thanks again for your help. My biggest fear with this meyer lemon is the lemons will get to a certain size and then just fall off, as I have had many people tell me happens with citrus in containers.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

By the way, when I recommend to a person to get a fertilizer that is (for a general example) 1-3-1 as opposed to 10-30-10, it is usually to prevent the person from over fertilizing, as it seems many people lean towards in using the products. I just wish I had easy access to a citrus only, correctly balanced fertilizer. Even Dr. Earth's "fruit tree" formula (labelled for citrus) is out of balance based on your information at 7-4-2. I am not sure why all fertilizers these days are like this.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Today i repotted my meyer lemon tree to a smaller pot. I think it will do better there and i also mixed in some fresh soil.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

That is a curious problem. When people make pancakes etc., they generally measure the ingredients. If they looked at the directions on the 10-30-10, they would likely find 1-teaspoon per gallon of water, whereas with the 1-3-1 it would be about 1/4 cup per plant. Either would deliver the same nutrient content, and neither would provide a risk of over-dosing.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Richard feel free to start your own thread on your topic. I would like to continue discussing kumquats and meyer lemons on this one.
Jananas your fruit plants are awesome. Im not skilled enough to grow from seed. Feel free to post more pics as they get bigger.
Im hoping my meyer lemon tree buds continue to grow well and open soon.

T

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Yes, we are all discussing containerized citrus here. The last post was regarding Lisa's (fmu65) question on fertilizer concentrations. Her other question was:

For references, I would point you at a succession of textbooks and research papers. However, there is a course taught on Citrus at UCR which is available through extension. Our very own member here GoAngels recently took this course so perhaps he can point you at the course materials.

The two main challenges in growing citrus and other fruiting trees indoors are: (1) supplying enough energy via light in the correct spectrum to the plant -- think of the leaves as solar panels, and (2) getting supplying enough potash in relation to nitrogen so that the plant can "service" the fruit.

For light you need between 55 watts/sq.ft. to 75 watts/sq.ft. in the 6500 Kelvin spectrum for a period greater than 7 hours per day. 9 hrs per day is sufficient. Hopefully you have some natural sunlight enveloping the plant and a very cheap light meter that measures watts (not lumens) can tell you what the contribution is. Then of course you need to make up the difference with supplemental lighting: the CF65K (compact fluorescent 6500 Kelvin) bulbs work well as do a bank of 4-foot 6500K fluorescent bulbs.

For nutrients, you would like the nitrogen (N) to potash (K) ratio to be about 1 N to 2/3 K, and the phosphate (P) to be the lowest. There are many fertilizer products in all shapes, types, and sizes from many suppliers that do this. These formulas are all examples: 3-1-2, 6-2-4, 9-3-6. If you walk into a big box store you'll likely see (among other things) an organic Citrus food that is 8-6-8 and an organic Palm food that is 8-4-8. Well, the first one is a little high in P, but the second is a pretty good choice. It's a bit more K than the plant will use but at least it meets the plants need. In the water-solubles you will see 20-10-15 which again is not quite the 1 to 2/3 ratio, but pretty darn close.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I would like to also take responsibility for having taken us a bit off topic here and I apologize. In my citrus news- my Meyer lemons are still doing well and haven't dropped the fruit! Will post pics soon, and hope to see everyone else's pics as well!

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

By the way, I've heard a few times that the best-tasting kumquat is Meiwa. I haven't tried it yet and want to give it a try. Centennial tastes pretty good and is a very attractive variegated form.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Among my customers, I have found that the American/European palette prefers Nagami, while the tropical Asian palette prefers Meiwa.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

I've got Nordman which is like Nagami, but seedless. Probably will be a year or two before it fruits.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

It's awesome.

Re: Anyone else growing Meyer Lemons or Kumquats?
 

Meiwa is good. If you like the sour flesh of Nagami, you might not love it. It is sweeter, with very little juice/flesh at all. At least that's my limited experience.

Slightly off topic, I had a taste test with Oro Blanco and Melogold pummelo hybrids today. Both were very good. I liked Melogold's texture and thinner skin, but would probably give Oro Blanco the nod for flavor -- it had a bit less bitterness. Neither is very sour, due to their acidless pummelo parent.