Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Read all about it here:
Journal of Plant Nutrition and Soil Science - Volume 177, Issue 5 - October, 2014 - Wiley Online Library

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Reading that gave me a headache :woohoonaner:

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

feeding it to cows to make them emit less gas

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Tony,

Admittedly I didn't read through the whole article. I've grown cautious of products containing the labels bio-anything ever since I learned that "bio-solids" in our fertilizers and soil mixes was just a pleasant sounding way of hiding pelletized chemical waste products such as toilet bowl cleaners or Prozac! What's worse is when I inadvertently discovered the fact that most of our Florida citrus groves are being fertilized with the pelletized sewage of NYC.

Biosolids Management Program "Plants grown in soils where biosolids have been applied are more resistant to disease and drought conditions."

Oranges Fertilized With Sludge Boston Sewage Contains Toxic Metals, Raises Safety Concern - Sun Sentinel

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

An important part of growing bananas is maintaining loose soil for rapid root growth and charcoal does that great and seems to last forever.

I also use it for my orchids and always have several blooms everyday of the year.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

In the studies I've read - including those in the link previously provided - Biochar tends to bind Nitrogen thus making less available to plants.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

I've been using it on my farm for decades and 'Nitrogen Binding' has not been a problem or even noticeable.

If a banana plant loses a small percentage of available nitrogen due to binding, but then increases it's root zone by 200% or 300% due to the loose soil, it's easy to see the net effect is a dramatic increase in nitrogen and other nutrients available to the plant.

There was an earlier discussion about coffee grounds binding nitrogen thus making less available to plants, so I filled a pot with 100% coffee grounds added a banana plant and just water. The plant grew and produced fruit like other bananas, here's a photo of the roots the day it was put in the ground.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Here's a recent study on the use of Biochar in a category of tropical soils known as Ferralsols in some quarters and Oxisols elsewhere.

The results are mixed. Note that conclusions based on Ferralsols have little or no application to soils in the majority of the U.S. and Canada but might help some members in tropical regions.

Effect of biochar, lime, and compost application on phosphorus adsorption in a Ferralsol

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

WASHINGTON STATE UNIVERSITY - FACT SHEET

The nature of phosphorus in soils : University of Minnesota

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

There were a lot of presentations on biochar at the most recent Soil Science Society meeting. Results appeared to be variable depending on what the source of the biochar was, how hot it got, and what kind of soil it was applied to. I particularly remember poor results with high temperature treated almond shells in California. But, decent results with rice hulls here in Florida.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Sometimes "poor results" can be ambiguous, was it...

a harmful impact on the soil?

or

a low return on investment as an amendment?



I think a lot has to do with expectations.

I attribute much of my success growing a'ea'e with using biochar. It's been the great equalizer against stupidity, in the past fungal rot was a problem and now it's barely a memory. It certainly improves aeration in the soil and retains moisture well.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Hello Everyone!
My first post on here I might ad.
Borrowing from palm culture (palmtalk.org)
to address the top 7 from the WSU List,
palm vendors from Hawaii use
crushed volcanic rock &
some use a mix with pine bark.
Everything is naturally organic
and no greenhouse gasses
emitted in its production.

Cheers!
Ritchy

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

AEAE.... its whats for dinner.

I attribute much of my success in grilling using biochar.
It's been the great equalizer against stupidty.
I've been using it for decades.


.Biochar....good on the grill, and in the ground! by Hostafarian, on Flickr

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Less trees...more biochar....more AEAE for dinner. :lurk:

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Poor results as in reduced plant growth. It just doesn't seem to be uniformly good for everybody.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Weber grill, biochar, aeae pup.
.It IS what IS for dinner...
Burn them if you got them.

Untitled by Hostafarian, on Flickr

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

For the average hobbyist or home gardener...
Is it worth the price and return on your investment?
Wouldnt experience and the use of grass clippings, coffee grinds, mulch, etc...
be sufficient and more cost effective?
Whats the going rate $/pound for banana
in the market or farmers market?

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

It is a HOBBY and like with most hobbies, the return on your investment does not necessarily matter. I personally think that any homegrown banana has a better flavor than a supermarket one, so it is worth the investment right there.
I would be careful with the "black gold" charcoal, but in case of an AeAe I can picture its benefits if used in moderation.
Unfortunately, just grass clippings, coffee grinds and such would not be sufficient for growing banana plants in my soil.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

For whatever reason organic material seems to work really well in financially conservative areas. It works well in the Caribbean and has worked well in Africa for thousands of years.

"To improve soil fertility, cow dung and grass are dug into the soil... It takes some work, but the result is that large green fronds shade the plantation and banana bunches hang heavy with good-sized fingers."


None of these new (FHIA) hybrids are exactly like matooke... The taste is certainly different but... 'These people's taste for life is stronger'

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

For fruiting bananas, no.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Sure can... been doing it for decades.

If you think homegrown tastes good... grass-fed is on a whole nother level.:lurk:

It takes more effort but it's worth it..:goteam:

The most common compliment I hear from my customers is

"Best Banana Ever" :waving:

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

It depends how poor your soils are to begin with. Carbon additions will improve yields immensely on poor sandy soils. Bananas at the market can sell from $0.75 to $2.00 per lb depending on variety

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Depending on the form of the carbon. Some commercial and homemade varieties of Biochar have been shown to limit nitrogen availability to plants. Other forms of Biochar have been found to be beneficial in certain soils. A recent journal issue devoted to this topic can be found here: Journal of Plant Nutrition and Soil Science, Volume 177, Issue 5.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Burn pile in a working Montmorency cherry orchard.
.
Burn pile before replant of cherry trees
by
Hostafarian,
on Flickr

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

This topic refuses to go away.
I forgot all about this one.
Ive also heard of wood chips as mulch limits
the absorbtion of nitrogen.
What some people do is mix in
manure or sulfate of ammonia with the wood chips
to supplement that limitation of N2 uptake.
Are there other sources of carbon other than biocharcoal?

Wouldnt regular wood chips/nuggets provide the same carbon source?
After all, the basic building block of organic matter comprises of CHON.
What we do is just recycle into differents
forms of carbon/hydrogen/oxygen/nitrogen.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

For those of us that don't have a PHD in horticultural chemistry my humble opinion on bio-charcoal is this. "Charcoal briquettes" are made from pulverized compressed coal, a binder, and sawdust. I bought a bag to test and when it got wet it soaked up water an turned to mush. It sucks! I then bought "Lump charcoal" which in this case was baked Mesquite. It was unfazed by water so I am now crushing and using it in all plantings. So far so good.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

I don't care about studies. I use biochar for one purpose. To create loose airy soil for better roots. Surprisingly even though I use big chunks of it the worms love it. They carry it deep in the soil. No doubt my soil looks better and plants get bigger. I grow mostly in mulch and biochar and it makes an excellent soil base. I don't soil test I just look at healthy can plants. I make it cone pit method.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

No because it does not keep consistency. Turns to muck. Biochar never gets mucky and keep decayed wood matter light and fluffy.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Who is your employer?

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

I am. I maintain reptiles and arachnids as well as some handy services. How does my job pertain to biochar?

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Do you have pictures taken in your garden of core samples or excavations that verify your statement

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Make your own and try it. Don't take my word. I could show you but I smell a baiter.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

So your statement here about the worms is a complete fabrication?

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

This looks like an interesting read:

http://www.biochar-international.org...2--Oct2009.pdf

I've been using hardwood ash from fires in my yard for a while and the bananas seem to like it. As it raises pH (like biochar), I would be hesitant to use it too much around my plants that like more acidic soil.

It sounds like some folks use biochar in the form of bagged wood charcoal. Are there certain brands/types anyone would recommend? In the paper above, they mention "Real Montana Charcoal" as one with good potential.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Biochar-International is a marketing organization.

You can find real studies in soil science journals such as this one:
Effect of biochar, lime, and compost application on phosphorus adsorption in a Ferralsol

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

I make my charcoal in a cone pit method. I gather neighbors debris and convert it. I mix it with wood chips and compost and get great benefits. My best benefit is simply soil conditioning.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

In your location, soil conditioning - particularly the input of carbon is a requirement for most plants. Soils elsewhere often do not benefit from Biochar - esp. terrestrial clays.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

I do use charcoal raw but works better if it sets in the woodchips and compost for a while. Biochar was best addressed by one yard revolution on youtube and growing your greens. Growing your greens showed bugs eating the charcoal and beneficial fungus growing in it.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Getting back to the inputs of "grass clippings, coffee grinds and such" and speaking only of experience growing bananas in FL, I can testify to the benefits of adding organic material in general to the soil. Richard seems to be keen on chemical fertilizers - and that's fine. I would just like to try to achieve the same or better results without them.

In my experience, *in Florida*, best results have been with moderate doses of Espoma (Holly or Citrus), fine mulch, coffee grounds, wood ash, and bi-annual thick applications of mushroom compost. Over the past couple years, I've found mushroom compost to be the key for me. It loosens up the soil and attracts huge amounts of earthworms. 200 fingers on my latest Namwah is enough direct evidence for me. Before using mushroom compost, I may have topped out at 120.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

I bring home 4 to eight yards of fine mulch per week and treat it with mykos. I have use almost no chemical fertilizers but some I do. I get results either way. When the mulch decomps it seems to pack. The charcoal seems to keep it light and fluffy. I wish I could access mushroom compost.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Bryce, you CAN! Why don't you pick some up from Monterey Mushrooms in Zellwood next time you're over in that area? Sometimes it's free, sometimes they charge you $10 a yard. I bring a 4x8x3 trailer over there and load up a few times a year.

Orlando Facility | Monterey Mushrooms

You could stop by when you go to Green's Nursery next month - it's right down the street!

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Wow! All i can say.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

How about some pics?:drum:

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

For some reason, I can't upload photos anymore, regardless of file size. It even says they've uploaded successfully, but they never appear in my photo area. Anyway, I used a different route and here are some pics. OK, I exaggerated a bit - there were actually 192 fingers... :)

View image: IMG 20160108 083441564

View image: IMG 20160108 083035300

View image: IMG 20160108 145011068

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Are those old pictures or did you not freeze?

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

No freeze here. Lowest since 12/10 has been 41; 37 maybe tonight.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

Mushroom compost is high in nutrient density of N-P-K in comparison with leaf or grass mulch. Where available in bulk it can be a cost effective alternative to nutrient concentrates - esp. in comparison to neglible inputs. I use 15 cu. yards of it a year as a side dressing in my 1/4 acre orchard and planter beds.

There are produce farmers in my area who use mushroom compost as their sole nutrient input for cauliflower, broccoli, etc. They till it in about 2 feet deep with a tractor prior to each planting. The results are spectacular. Of course there's a huge mushroom farm in the area that outputs a couple hundred yards of free compost per week.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

It's easy to get better results and the fruit tastes a whole lot better.

I get amazing results using compost tea made from grass clippings, biochar and some top mulch.

Never used chemical fertilizers.

Re: Biochar: Black Gold or Just Another Snake Oil Scheme?
 

The pics are from about 2 weeks ago. Lowest temps will be tonight - around 37. I was harvesting individual hands for a couple weeks, but finally cut the whole bunch off yesterday, as we are getting too much consistent cold for continued growth/ripening.