Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

This is a good one here:

Nikolas Kozloff: Chiquita in Latin America

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Oh no!!! not again!!

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

What do you mean "not again?!?!?" It's STILL HAPPENING here.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Same old song and dance, just no dancing Chiquita banana girl to charm the public. You know it's a bad economy when Chiquita who practically invented propaganda er ah, public relations left that part of the equation out.
Still easy to follow the trail of bodies though. Thanks for posting , I had missed this.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I agree with bobs statement.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I would like to see a report on the same history from a less left leaning source, although I don't think I will.

The outrage and anger I see here seems a bit manufactured.

The real question is....What are you going to do about it? If the conditions are so brutal, why do people continue to work on the plantations? We all know the answer.....because there is nowhere else to work that pays what Chiquita pays.

While there is definitely a situation that we would not tolerate here in the USA, the company does provide income for families that would not be achievable without.

Let's play a mind game. Suppose that you're able to mobilize a worldwide protest and boycott of bananas, in order to make Chiquita aware of your unhappiness. The immediate result, of course, would be the termination of the jobs they've created as there would be no demand for the product. So that probably wouldn't work. Perhaps a unionization effort was successful and the workers conducted a strike? Two really bad outcomes here. Either the workers are locked out and have their meager incomes ended, or the company hires scabs. Potential for violence is increased and problems increase with this scenario.

The problem with sweatshops is that they are successful merely because its the best option available to people with no other means. Without sweatshops, the people in these areas would be markedly worse off than they are with them.

Its an ugly fact, but no less real. To improve the economy for the workers, it would be in the interest for the government to help in expanding the numbers of swaetshops; with the labor pool shrinking as a result of competition, wages would rise, conditions would improve and thenational economy would expand.

What stops this from happening is government corruption.

So, do not blame the companies, blame the government. In almost every case, government is the problem, not the solution.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Well I, for one, have stopped buying Chiquita bananas. Dole too. And not just for their behaviour.

Look into the history of United Fruit and you'll see that they've got not only Central America's government where it wants it but the US government as well. Bay Of Pigs was started because of bananas, the European tariffs, various other problems with military and CA governments not wanting to give in to UF. All because of bananas.

Then there is the chemical spraying that has killed and made a lot of people very sick. On top of that the ignorance UF showed with not wanting to deal with finding better suited bananas (which, I'm sure, is essentially impossible) for growing in those areas where the various diseases are romping with glee with plants that aren't supposed to be there.

Go to Wal-Mart and look at the price of Chiquitas - last I saw they were 49 cents a pound because that's how Wal-Mart wants them to be, not Chiquita. Doles at Rouses or Winn Dixie are 69 cents a pound.

People spend $1.50 on a whatever ounce plastic bottle of tap water named Dasani or whatever yet complain about the price of GAS!??

Bananas are insanely underpriced.

I was just merely pointing out the politics as usual aspect of Chiquita by putting that article here.

So what do I do? I've done what I can do -I've stopped buying. And what's even funnier is with this whole 'green' movement - no one stops to think about the carbon footprint of bananas (or a lot of other bland fruits from California or Mexico like mangoes and watermelon, etc...I've been buying locally grown watermelon, tomatoes, apples, etc, things that are in season).

Perhaps I'm the only one that has been thinking about the carbon footprint?

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

bepah, you're not going to find a less left leaning source than myself. I've done 2 articles on this for Bananas Quarterly and have done countless hours of hopefully unbiased research prompted mainly by my desire to once again eat the famous Gros Michel before I sign off for the last time.
I agree whole heartedly that governmental pressures play a prominent role in affecting the overall lives of the workers. Some of the sources I checked out were in fact written by left leaning grandstanders with an agenda, most notably one by an English author I won't name publicly because I won't give him or his book any publicity.His was clearly biased and just an attack on any form of capitalism. Still those pressures are generated by the deep pockets and less than honest business practices. Some of the Central American native population was literally forced in to labor of an industry forced upon them by the brutal and often murderous practices of the installed governments on behalf of their corporate benefactors. They literally just wanted to be left alone to the lifestyle they were comfortable with,even if that meant living in what we'd consider squalor. However that same populace was violently uprooted and forced in to the service of the government/company.
In the earliest days UFC went as far as to import Jamaican labor in to other countries simply because of their genuine willingness to EARN their living.

"Its an ugly fact, but no less real. To improve the economy for the workers, it would be in the interest for the government to help in expanding the numbers of swaetshops; with the labor pool shrinking as a result of competition, wages would rise, conditions would improve and thenational economy would expand."

Ideally this would work if those same sweatshops were able to fairly compete. The reality is far more complicated.
To me the best solution and it ties in with another thread going here ,would be to diverisify the crop and the promotion of regionaly grown varieties allowing for real capital gains for all involved. It would benefit the consumer, I'd love to try 10 varieties of banana at any given time. It would benefit the environment not to have the vast monocultures that could have ended the industry altogether had they not found the relatively bland Cavendish as a replacement. There would certainly be no loss for the big corporations as the market could potentially expand.Finally, there would be incentive for real competition among the regional growers.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Hey Bob, if I named that author you're talking about and said his name was Peter Chapman would you let me know if I was right, warm or cold or wrong? Ha ha.

If that is who you are 'not' talking about I must say I found his book to be very odd and even quite confusing. A good example is his mentioning of Zapata. That really threw me for a loop. Dan Koeppel obviously did more research for his book. But Chapman, he ignored the Vaccaro Brothers outright (other than saying "Italian company in New Orleans" a few times - maybe he's a stock owner of Chiquita?) and what that all turned out to be and why, which, to me, just seems really really odd in terms of the history of United Fruit etc.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

This isn't a mind game here in Ecuador, Bepah. Please take this as a statement of fact from somebody who's been witnessing this on a monthly basis. The Chiquita and Dole workers, who are unionized, are still on strike until such time as a contract that will provide them a living wage is agreed upon. Until that time, both companies have been hiring scab workers at $5 a day which is actually $2 a day more than the striking workers were earning under their old contract. There is picketline violence every day, and because Chiquita can afford to pay off the cops and the government, it's the striking workers that are going to jail. Certainly in this case both the company and the government are at fault.

Some background: the current Ecuadorean LAW is $5 per hour minimum which is defined as the amount that people must be paid in order for them to afford the basic life necessities (food, shelter, clothing). Plantation workers, who are on 12-hour shifts, were getting far less than 1/12 of that, and the scabs are getting exactly 1/12. However, since Alvaro Noboa (who heads Chiquita in Ecuador) is politically very well placed, and is filthy stinking rich, he can stop most government inquest. Equally, since Bananas are a major component of Ecuador's economy, the government is loath to mess with them - even if just Chiquita shut down production for a month, we'd see something similar here to the US Great Depression.

Combine this with a violent opposition to any form of diversification (for example, the "specialty" bananas for export are also monocultured, rather than found in mixed-plantation) and you've got yourself a feudal system that is most likely not going to change any time soon.

I've said my bit. This infuriates me, because it is unjust and illegal, but there is little I can do about it save to continue buying my fruit and plants from smallholders.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

The more people growing here the less has to be purchased in the store. One of my actual goals has been to get as much food as possible produced within 100 miles. Its astounding how much gas and natural resources go into shipping things.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Exactly. That's the carbon footprint problem - if that kind of thing matters to people. I know it matters to airlines.

I have the possibility of using a lot of land in Jefferson Parish that only has Ornatas growing on it right now. It's not huge by any means but it is big enough to grow possibly 10 or 15 rows of different bananas on. I figure as far as weed control I'll just mow whatever is growing and make sure it's blown onto the plants, therefor acting as a fertilizer (somewhat - I know grass clipping work fantastically). Get some different bananas going and take them to a farmer's market or two and see what happens. If I don't at least break even with plant costs, well hell, then I guess I'd just sell the plants. But it might be fun to do some kind of LOCAL small grove farming... I'm not sure what to call it. Musa Plantation Grounds? Ha ha. Something with a bit of a wink. Also I don't think or know of anyone growing plantains in the New Orleans region so that might be interesting as well.

Cause I'm not gonna spend a ton of money on fert and generally in the New Orleans area one doesn't really need it. Irrigation might be the only problem. We just don't get the daily rain like we used to.

As far as crime goes I'd just move the Ornatas to act as a screen. Hopefully if I were to do it no one would just walk in and take the fruit.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Suppose that we could produce more Bananas in the USA, under US labor laws, we'd need at least 500,000 acres of bananas. And realistically, you have about 100000 suitable acres here in Florida, and about the same in Puerto Rico. I suppose there are portions of California that are suitable, but where are you gonna find people to work in the plantations. Puerto Rican bananas in the grocery store are the same price as they are here so you really can't make the argument that US regulations would make it prohibitive to grow and make a profit. Well me and my five acres are doing our part to supply bananas domestically. Think of the options of bananas you would have if they didn't have to ship very far?

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Thats why the goal is to grow as much of my own food as possible :)

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I don't know how well it is actually implemented on the ground, but the fair-trade program that deals with bananas, coffee, etc... seems to deal with the low wages paid to workers. Ultimately though, the American consumer is not very concerned with anything but aesthetics and price. And because of the price thing we end up missing out on taste. When looking at the commercial varieties of fruits like the Tommy Atkins Mango or the Gran Nain banana you are looking at a fruit that ships well, looks good and to hell with the taste. The same could probably be said for Pineapples as well although those Del Monte Gold pinapples are a vast improvement over those acid-green things they were selling. Although during my adventures through Puerto Rico I found out that farm ripened ones were pretty much like biting into pure sugar.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

With the way things grow in New Orleans and the surrounding area there, specifically, from what I've seen it could be quite possible to get people interested in growing different bananas. Hell, even Grand Nains without all the spraying would probably taste better.

And barring another levee busting storm surge there is a lot of vacant land in New Orleans that could become banana farms or lots. But it would take some work. There's all this BS talk about 'green space' where no one is able to rebuild - I bet the mindset is to plant more crape myrtles - just what the SE needs. In Mandeville they're everywhere. I hate them. They are the most overused tree in the Southeast.

I would buy bananas if there were more to choose from and if they were closer to home for me. I do tend to get the organic bananas that show up every now and then. I think that is worth supporting. No matter - I'm working on doing it myself. I have gotten other people into growing their own, even though they're mostly Orinoco. But they do taste good when they get enough size to 'em.

If only I could get a Gros Michel! That would be so cool.

One thing I have noticed the past year is LESS Chiquita stock and more Dole. I see Chiquita at Wal Mart and various small grab'n'go stores but in the groceries it seems to all be Dole.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

It seems that they are loosing a little bit of Walmart's business as well. The article I read said that Walmart wants it cheaper so they are going to other sources.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

You are supporting my point exactly. Unionization does not work, especially when the labor supply is so large. It seems pretty clear that when some of the workers refuse to work (via the strike), wages go up, as the supply of workers shrinks. It has nothing to do with smacking the union down, it is simply a supply and demand solution. Once the strike is over (if it ever is) the number of workers goes up and the wages go down.

My 'sweatshop' solution does not mean that there needs to be more banana processors, it mean that there needs to be more industry everywhere in other aspects of living. The skill level required for entry level work cannot be too demanding in the banana processors, the same for any entry level job. If the Ecuadorian government was truly interested in helping the working classes, they would be promoting investment in any industry that would generate jobs. from you post, you seem to imply that government officials are more interested in lining their own pockets that in the overall welfare of the people of Ecuador. This is the standard government corruption model that we see promulgated here in the States.

The unions of today are also interested in one thing, to line the union leaders pockets. Through the intimidation model, their own members are being hurt.

You have a real problem that will not be solved until such time that the government is there to support the populace. I hope it happens, but this country is going rapidly toward the SA model as well.

Consumers who choose to not consume those products (bananas, etc) are actually helping the companies/governments by reducing demand for the supply, which causes reduction in prices, hence the WalMart ability to charge so little, as the demand is weaker.

A little common sense goes a long way when it is used. While the situation is bad in Ecuador with little hope of solution, consumers boycotts have no positive impact as there are not enough people to participate and those who do not, benefit from the softer prices. Bananas are still going to be grown and sold, they are perishable....prices will adjust to meet the demand.

It is sad that these problems exist, but there are wolves out there, and the sheep are nervous.....since they have no tools to defend themselves.

Finally, with regard to my 'manufactured rage' comment. It is one thing to not agree with a practice and aver to the high heavens on how one feels; it is a much different thing to take things into ones hands and try to make a change. There are few people in history that have taken the risk of life and limb to try and affect change. They are called revolutionaries.

I am not unsympathetic to the situation, but I cannot make changes by posting on electronic forums and no one else can either. I hope thing settle for the better in Ecuador (as well as here).

Take care.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

very political, the workers are seriously oppressed and survive so little. Like most of the small countries they are forced to except what is given them. It will be a long time before there will be a great leader that can truly bid for the people they are supposed to represent. If we read all the history that some of these companies have done, if you have any moral felling it should make you sick at what they have done, and are still trying to do today as we live breath!
I have no more confidence in this new goverment than i did with the old one.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Just 3 things I would like to say:
1. I've read Ecuadorean history from the U.S. Department of State & other sources, as well. Sorry Bepah, but the Ecuadorean people have done more to actively & violently protest corruption & affect political change than most any other country I've read about.
2. I've also read John Steinbach's "Grapes of Wrath". Nobody will ever find the truth on the Left or Right side of the fence (it's always somewhere between) but that & the history that follows clearly support the need for unionization; pacifism changes exactly nothing and, in fact, supports corruption & greed.
3. As a loyal American, I would take Extreme exception to the slaughter of fellow Americans simply because they seemed to stand in the way of a business.
4. I think Bob's got a point & I want more great nanners, too :).

Okay, okay.... 4 things to say.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I guess I need to respond.....

1) Active and violent protestations of corruption is what does not work, as we are seeing. Participation in legal voting (what is the voting turnout, Lorzx?) by the people will have a much better result. My understanding is that among most of the Central and South American democracies is that most citizens do not vote. The true revolutionary is not a freedom fighter but an educator, helping people understand what changes need to be made.

2) Grapes of Wrath is a work of fiction.......

3) I would be upset as well if there was wholesale murder in this country. however, with the changes happening here, we may not be far from it, with the unemployment at decade high levels, summer heat, racial tension, etc. Our police in this country are not respected and they are outgunned...any riots we see in the future have the potential for extreme bloodshed. In fact, I am not upset, I am frightened at the potential this year.

4) More bananas for me too!

Thanks for the dialogue.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

1. Voter turnout in Ecuador is about 98% - the state fines people for not voting. It is also enshrined in our constitution to right to protest, and the right to boot the president whenever a large enough group is unhappy with his actions. To bring this around to our discussion, if the plantation workers were in the square in Quito, in front of the Presidential Palace, things would likely get done - it's like Speaker's Corner but the government actually listens to the people.

3. You would object to wholesale murder in your own country, but you don't object to wholesale murder of other people in other countries, even by order of your own government?

4. More bananas for everybody!

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

John , just a note to say I don't totally disagree with you just a few points.

Beth, when you find as large of a country better than the USA let me know. Despite the initial assumption, Chiquita brands doesn't represent the people here just the portions of government that are within their considerable reach. (you've read my thoughts on this that only a couple have so I don't disagree with you either, just standing up for my country).I'm pretty sure no one here could agree to harming anyone.

MJ, thanks for agreeing with me(always a good decision:ha:).

Tommy, way to go with a thought provoking post!

At least we all agree that we should have more variety. Too bad we're not the ones with the authority, something would get done.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

well I'm very load about it at my work and have been told to tone it down. I know what has happen over the years in other parts of the world and most american are just that ingnorent about what has gone on in other parts of the world. And to the point of denial. I look at it as though some of them have the brain of a crack head they just sit in a room with nothing in it but a chair and a pipe, yet they see nothing wrong with it.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Lorax,

Let me clarify....

1) If things are presented to the workers as you have described them, why aren't they in the Speaker's corner every day (considering they are on strike and it is the largest contributor to the GNP) and why is the president still in power? This is quite confusing to me as an outsider. Is it a given that whoever is elected or in power will be in bed with foriegn industrialists?

3) I object to wholesale murder wherever it occurs. Naturally, it doesn't occur often here, although I am expecting more of it this summer.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I know that I haven't seen any Chiquita brand bananas at Wal-Mart in several months now. I was commenting on this to my wife a couple of weeks back. I had begun noticing that the bananas they were offering had this sickly yellow color with an almost grayish cast to them. More often than not, when I peel the bananas to eat them, there are bad spots in the fruit itself. Wal-Mart has obviously switched to a company that is selling a lower grade of bananas. The Chiquita or Dole Cavendish they used to sell may not have been great but the quality was definitely better than the junk they are selling now. I'll have to look and see what company is on the sticker next time I go.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

That sounds like the article I read; Walmart's success is based on low prices so they just buy from whoever sells the cheapest. But since home grown even beats Chiquita, think I'll send them a letter & ask them to raise their prices to settle the strike. I wouldn't mind paying a dollar a pound or even more if I've got a chance of getting home grown nanners, too :).
Bepah: If things get that bad in California, just move to Oklahoma; aside from parties, things have been real peaceful here.

BTW, while in fact I'm not so militant as I like to sound, every good writer knows why "Grapes of Wrath" was relegated to the level of "fiction". Try as we might, nobody's Perfect.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Michael,

Raising the prices at the retail level will only pad the pockets of the retailers. You may want to look into getting a 'Fair Trade' policy into this area. There are strong economic arguments that Fair Trade, while helping producers a little (again, the workers, where the problem is, get nothing) penalizes the consumer.

Things in CA are bad and have the potential to get worse. However, after we hit bottom, things will improve greatly, I am hopeful.

I like OK, but those dang Blue Northers that come through keep me away...

Sometimes I think the State of CA is a work of fiction.

Take care,

John

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

We can't even figure out a way to pay workers in this country what they deserve. Immokalee workers have been trying to get a penny a pound increase for years and nobody can figure out how to pay it. I mean lets face it the consumer wouldn't even notice a penny a pound, but the pickers would see much higher paychecks. People talk a lot about wanting to help out, but nothing is ever done about it. Here's a good example: Martin can pick 800 42 lb crates of corn per day and he makes $0.10/crate, if the man got an extra penny per ear he would increase his pay from $80/day to $464/day and the cost of a crate of corn would go up a whopping $0.48. If I could make $464/day picking corn, that is what I'd be doing. And the end consumer wouldn't even realize they were a paying a penny more.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Hi Bepah :), Gotta admit I know as much about economics as I do about Marsian tree frogs (if there are any) :o. But, as a consumer, I'd be willing to do a lot to help out the workers; I've seen pics of pickers & that's gotta be some really hard work. BTW, the Blue Northers aren't as bad as they look - just a little exhilerating at times (hate spell-checkers). Also, keep hearing about the economy being bad but haven't really noticed it. Guess it depends on what part of the country you're in cause my parents haven't even said much about it. Had no idea things were that bad in California... If it gets that bad, bail out anyway :eek: !
Nick, I'd be happy to pay that extra penny... or even more :).

Forgot to say: Any good writer also knows that Steinbach (Grapes of Wrath) was Not doing an expose on California... Just an expose on man's nature. I'm certain similar conditions were prevalent everywhere during those hard times.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

This logic is flawed.

"Unionization does not work"
Have you ever heard of Cesar Chavez?Cesar Chavez Biography: Labor Leader - EnchantedLearning.com
Just think of what our standard of living would be today if unions had not fought for...............
The 40hr work week
The 8hr day
Overtime
Child labor laws
Job safety requirements
Pensions
Equal pay for women
Employer provided health insurance
The freedom of employees to organize without being beaten by company goons


"...when some of the workers refuse to work (via the strike), wages go up, as the supply of workers shrinks."
Replacement workers are paid more usually b/c it is required to attract people who otherwise would not want to cross a potentially violent picket line.

"Once the strike is over (if it ever is) the number of workers goes up and the wages go down."
You assume that the employer wins every strike?! More often than not the striking workers return to higher wages and better benefits.

Unions are not the solution to everything, and they have had some dark days. But to say they cannot accomplish anything is an extremely misinformed statement and a total disregard of labor history.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Nobody is holding a gun their head to make any of them work for Dole or Chiquita or Del Monte. If they were to lose their jobs tomorrow they'd find something else to do. They would have to. They did other things before the banana companies - historically and now, as in there are other jobs than working at a banana plantation.

The banana companies are not the end all be all.

When push comes to shove they'll do something.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I feel I must reply, although I do not want to start a pro/anti union discussion here.

Most of the items here may have been initiated by the unions but have been more or less legislated by various levels of government (due to the lining of legislators pockets byt union leaders).

My take on unions:

1) It overpays many for the skill sets that they bring and underpays many for the skills they are not allowed to use due to the contracts established.

2) The long term results of unionization is the destruction of jobs. Acceleration of technology which is cheaper than manpower is driven by high labor costs. Technology in CA, much of it at UC Davis has caused much of the 'advances' in plant technology and providing consumers with less flavorful fruit and vegetables that can be picked by machine, crated by machine, etc. Noting to your reference of Cesar Chavez, farm workers in CA (and everywhere I'd imagine) are no better off than they were during his day, and they now have to pay union dues which lowers their effective net pay.

3) During times of high unemployment (just like now) unions have no bargaining power. There are plenty of idle workers. To say that those who cross the line risk being violently attacked speaks lowly of a union worker. If their jobs are held only by the threat of violence, what skills do they offer the employer? Thuggery happens on both sides of the line.


You mention all of the good things that unons bring and have ignored some of the bad. The recent implosion of out auto industry is probably the best example. One of the last true industries in this country has been socialized due to the unions excessive contracts, especially in retirement and heathcare. Additoinally, the 'job bank', and other bennies have kept costs well over other similar jobs in other countries. now, instead of the company paying autoworkers and their retirees, we as taxpayers get to support them. If you believe that GM will return to profitability in any near term, you are not being honest with the numbers. Very soon, the auto czar will be coming to congress asking for more bailout money.

The unions have been protected in this country by the government as they cannot make it alone.

Hotel workers in San Francisco strike every other year, their jobs are easily replaced by 'scabs', they give in and accept contracts way out of line compared to what they had asked. In the meantime, the workers are unemployed and have zero income.

The last grocery clerks strike, held in Southern CA, went on until they came back to work with a contract less than what was oribginally offered by management.

In the past, union organizers risked a lot (sometimes their lives) in order to get safe working conditions and a fair wage. Today, since these needs have been met (at least in the USA) the focus is on the union, not the jobs they do. Hence, union membership is at the lowest levels in recent history.

Today, my son-in-law, cannot get a job. He is a union member (sheet metal worker). He could work tomorrow for a wage well under what the contract offers, but that is what the job is worth today. If he were to do it, the union would remove him from thier ranks and cancel all of his benefits and retirement (such as they are) and never allow him to join again. At this time, the union, which really has no bargaining power since the labor is now imported from Mexico (I am not certain as to the legal or illegal status of these workers) and these workers will work for less than any union contract.

So, he remains unemployed (he cannot even take a job in another trade, the same penalties apply) and on the dole.

This has gone on much longer than I wanted, so I will end it.

Hopefully, we can get back to getting more bananas.....

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

At this point, I can begin to believe it's more a matter of evolution. After all, the 'red' trail of the United Fruit Company bears a striking resemblance (in ways) to the countless 'red' trails found in history throughout time.
Slavery leads to pyramids leads to the revolts leads to Aleric leads to the Dark Ages.
So much for Gaius Julius Ceaser's quest for spice.... No worries, here comes Britain.
India Indian massacres aside, ruling the waves leads to bread fruit leads to Blighs leads to mutinies leads to British courts leads to mariner rights.
Back from Cook's Island, the Napoleanic Code seems in order (right up to Wellington), an Austrian prince takes a final bow, & Germany (upon defeat & general ruination) sends the kids out to fight (time for a few child labor laws, at this point).
Point being, none of the above had Unions or the legislative blessings they bestowed (at whatever price, for whatever reason).
Back to Now: Depression leads to Teddy leads to Unions leads to technology leads to recession leads to....
Point being, I've yet to see a final answer.... I've also yet to see the sun come up in 2010.
"It would take an Act of Congress" is a fairly common expression. The whole world, right now, is desperate for a solution.
What I am fairly certain of is that it won't be a dusted-off Union of the Depression Era or anything else that's been tried, so far. If a solution exists, it will Very likely represent yet another step in the evolution of business-not-as-usual on Earth.
It's good to see debates like this. Taken in a 'Productive' fashion, they Are that evolutionary step.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

And while unions lobbied and payed to have these laws passed, business intrests lobbied and paid to stop them. The unions were simply playing the system that was set up between government and business before they came on the scene. At least they lobbied and paid for a good cause.

#1 is a general statement that cannot be applied to every union job. I feel my pay is very fair and I have plenty of opportunities for advancement.

Advances in technology are inevitable. They are driven by profit, not labor unions.

To say that farm workers are no better off than they were in the 1950's when Cezar Chavez started organizing is just flat out wrong.
Fight in the Fields - UNITED FARMWORKERS UNION | PBS

During times of high unemployment no one has bargaining power. If you are unemployed you either take whatever job you can find or you wait. My union does not stop people from finding work outside of our trade if there are no jobs to be had. But during times of high employment union members have the advantage through collective bargaining.

I did not say that the striking farm workers would incite violence on the picket line. It is the fruit companies that have a history of violence. They create a tense and dangerous atmosphere in which to work. It is well known that Cezar Chavez was a proponent of non-violence.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

If the unions were soley to blame for the auto industries troubles then Ford would not have just posted higher than expected returns for the 2nd qtr without the help of bailout money. washingtonpost.com Bad management decisions, poor product designs, and the rising cost of health care has just as much to do with GM and Chrystler's troubles.
Again, a general statement that does not apply to every situation. I am a member of the Electricians Union. Our contractors bid work against non-union contractors every day without any help from the government.

I am sorry to hear that your son is unemployed. Your claim that he cannot take a job in another trade is not common practice in construction unions. During one slowdown in the construction industry I took a job working as a welders helper on a pipeline. My union had no problem with that. When you choose to work construction you know there will be good times and bad. You have to save during the good times to make it through the bad.


This thread was started on the subject of workers being mistreated. I am just responding to your general claims that unions can do no good. I have had a higher standard of living b/c of my union membership. I have not gone a single day since the the day I was born without health insurance. I was first covered by my dad's union health plan and then my own union health plan. My children, brothers, their children, their wives, my mother, have always had health insurance. My father, myself, my brothers, and your son will be able to retire with some sense of security b/c of our union pensions.

I never said that unions could fix all of Central Americas problems, but a labor movement could improve the livelyhood of it's citizens just as it did in this country. Unions set many of the standards we take for granted today.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

As revealed in Dan Koeppel's book not to be one of their better business acumens, this, the last word of the sentence especially, is from the Chiquita.com website and it's very entertaining:

"We set the standards for cultivation, irrigation, fertilization and of course, research."

I believe that accolade could is better suited for...Dole. I could be wrong.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I'm going to have to jump in here again, despite the fact that discretion is the better part of not posting about things that piss me off....

I'll prephrase my comments by pointing out that I'm also unionized (IAATSE and the International Scenographers) and I've found that it has bettered both my life and career.

On what planet? In my experience, there are very few situations where a unionized worker will be stopped from using undescribed skillsets under established contracts... Certainly, when I've been hired to do, say, a lighting hang and focus, the union has never ever prevented me from going on to help out in carpentry or with sound or rigging. Before you tell me that this isn't construction trades, I'll point out to you that I necessarily have the same skills as a journeyman carpenter, electrician, and welder in order to do the jobs I do.

Again, on what planet? Certainly my experience with unionized labour in Central and South America runs exactly opposite to this statement. In many cases, especially in construction trades, the unions actually create jobs. Then again, very little here is automated, and it seems likely to remain so because if there were talk of replacing these jobs, there would be riots by both unionized and non-union labourers.

South LA Tropicals makes a great point - in crisis/recession/depression times, noboday has any bargaining power, unionized or not. Of course there is good and bad on both sides of the line, but this can be said of all facets of human activity.

Again, unionized labour is not wholly to blame for the collapse of the Auto industry. (mis)Management and poor design played a much larger part.

Perhaps this is true for the USA, but I will make the point that it's still not the case in the developing world - union leaders here are still risking their lives and livelihoods to secure safe working conditions and fair wages. So you're dealing with a pretty big generality to say that union membership is at an all-time low. Perhaps in the US, but in other countries it's still growing.

--

Like South LA Tropicals, I have a much higher standard of living due to my union membership, and I also have the opportunity to work a great deal more than I would were I not a member of the unions to which I belong. I bid against non-union technicians and designers on every job, with no aid from the governments of the countries in which I work, and I consider it perfectly fair if/when I'm turned down - it has much more to do with my skills and ideas, and the needs of the contract than it does my union status.

I am now officially done with this thread. It began as a discussion on the treatment of workers in Latin America, and it's digressed much to far from its original topic.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

I think sometimes the problem may be wold you rather make $0 or $4 per day and most people given the option between starving and $4 would take the $4 even if it meant working hard all day. I think the question is can the banana companies afford to pay more than low wages? The answer is absolutely, but it is going to have to forced upon them by the consumer.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Well ya Force is the key word there. Can they really be forced to do so? Maybe but in most cases there going to be blood shed of some kind. The fact is in such poor areas. there is really nothing else for them to do. Chiquita , Dole are the big boys there. Ok some might make the case that they could deal in the drug trade ( which is a live and well) but most are just trying to survive, most Americans are very ingnorent as to how hard it is there. They don't have choice. Here in the USA if i don't like my job I can just look for some work some were else, that is not the case there. I'm not trying to make a case for most Unions but in the past they have made a difference. But not now, at least not here. They are so corrupt I would rather go it a lone.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

It will take a near miracle for anything to happen, American and European consumers will have to demand that the people picking their fruit have the same rights and standards of living that they themselves have. I see the fairtrade system as one of the ways that can occur. Unfortunately the Grocers are not likely to give up much of their banana profits.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

very good and well put Nicolas I agree with you a 100%

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Are they living up to a capitalistic standard? If they are, how did that happen? What if they just farmed their own land and fed their families? Plant, grow, barter, etc. That's certainly much better than $4 a day from some US company that could pull out without notice. They don't NEED cell phones or computers or any of that kind of American or European or whatever wealthy country thing. American ideals have screwed up everything. The banana companies and the military have screwed everything up down there - not THEM, the people, but America. It's not natural, it's American capitalism that has caused all of this. For over 100 years now.

American's are arrogant. We don't have to live there or work there. We just see shiny yellow bananas in a grocery store and see how cheap they are and think, great. They're always there, they never go out of season. Yet we still pay up to $4 a gallon for gasoline and say 'That's the way it goes' and go flying off knowing that when the tank gets low we'll have to fill it up again gleefully.

Why not pay $4 a pound for bananas? How come the customers aren't stockholders and see to it to keep them honest?

I don't think any of the banana workers care what's on CNN or what ring tone their cell phones have or if they have the latest Blu-Ray or tickets to see The Rolling Stones or if they'll ever drive a BMW. The big companies have been dangling a rotten carrot for years.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

The situation with these workers is like a poker game in which one player has won all the money and no one else has a chance of getting back in the game.

Capitalism is one of the forces that has made our country great. But it has both good and ill effects just like unionism, patriotism, religion, conservatism, socialism, ect, ect, ect. Greed and blind ideology are the two greatest detriments to society IMO.

"I expect to pass through life but once. If therefore, there be any kindness I can show, or any good thing I can do to any fellow being, let me do it now, and not defer or neglect it, as I shall not pass this way again."
William Penn

"Everyone does better when everyone does better."
W.F. Hightower

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

So it's a lost cause to care? I'm not sure if caring works or is enough. What can I do? I don't know. Buy bananas? Not buy bananas? It's a treadmill.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

It is never a lost cause to care. There is not much an individual can do about the situation. As Nicolas Naranja mentioned, the fairtrade products are helping, but you have to search them out.

I am fully aware of the benefits of capitalism. And I do not advocate abandoning it. It would be a perfect system except for the greed factor.

I have always found this image to be thought provoking. It was produced in 1911 by the radical I.W.W.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Caring is the Heart of change. It's in the hands of the banana pickers to change their destiny. As primitives, we knew this and teamed up as Hunter-Gatherers & Agricultural Communities. This in time evolved into markets & modern businesses. I've heard it said (in a movie, of all things) "If there's a knife to their belly, they'll keep their hands to their sides". The movie was "The Omen" and I believe this has become the motto of modern business leaders throughout the world.
If those people can (in this age of global communication) be made aware that the carrot they see dangling is only intended to keep them barely alive & enslaved, perhaps they might find just cause to reject the carrot & create their own Agricultural Communities (or Technological, who knows?). This could easily spark the very heart of capitalism - competition.

I for one, believe I'll be caring over the course of many lives. But Luv William Penn, just the same.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

Hey Tommy - I agree with you 100% but I feel too strongly to say more as I will go into a rant!! lol!

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

The grocery store is where all the profit goes in produce and to a certain extent that is why the local foods movement is picking up a little bit. The local farmer barely squeaks buy with what the grocery store wants to pay them, but they make a good bit of money when the collect most of the retail. Dare I say this but the government really ought to step in and just start charging a flat fee on all produce to make sure that the pickers are paid. I think it would be justified especially since pickers and their families are often a burden on social programs that we all end up paying for anyways. Most of us wouldn't even notice the extra penny, but the beneficiaries that pick 1000s of lbs per year certainly would.

Re: Chiquita - An Awful Short History
 

maybe be a fair idea but it will just turn into more regulation.