My project
 

here's what I am building to have a protection for my dwarf bananas and priced citrus such as Joe's clemenule.
There will be a clear cover on top and during winter there will be cover on the sides.
I am also planning to add a gas line over for heating.
All the plants will be planted on the ground. It has a measurement now of 13x15x11 (height) but if I can buy another pergola I can double the area.
I just started so it's not finish yet- not yet level or the top is not installed.





Also, Here's my some of my bananas and citrus hiding in my patio. There are some yellow leaves because it's winter and because I made a mistake of cutting the matured leaves of my bananas to protect the p-stem.
As of 1/14/08

Re: My project
 

Soil temperature is a critical factor, and it cannot be controlled by surface heating. If the temperature difference between the air and the underground is too great the plants will become overstressed. The soil is one big heat drain which is accelerated when the soil is moist. Many a citrus tree has died in the local mountains this way. Consider using 65 to 100 gallon tubs for your fruit trees and an 18" high by about 3.5 x 3.5 foot square container for the bananas. You'll need an insultated mat underneath them.

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That should be really nice when it's finished! Be sure to post the finished product.

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Richard Thanks for a good info. What I plan to do is to raise the soil 1 foot adding mulch, sand, compost and steer manure and rototill the whole area. And that is a good idea heating up the soil also during winter.
I've already had some dwarf Brazilian planted on a corner and next to it is a California Gold. I may have a flower come spring time with my dwarf Brazilian.

Brent:
I sure will.
Here's how it looks after I put the top. But Plan to put polycarbonate sheets on top of it later on.

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Day 3
Notice the dwarf Brazilian the taller one and a California gold on the left and some Bicol Calamondin on the right and a at center.
I'll add top soil next.
Notice also that the dwarf Brazilian leaves were fried due to cold temperature but the California gold have 80% of its leaves still green.
Next year they will all be protected.

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I like the pillars! Are you going to build pedestals (brick, stucco, rock, tile) for them? Did you cut the board ends or did they come that way? What will you use on your paths? Will you add removable side panels for the winter to close it into a greenhouse?

...just curious...:nanadrink:

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Great job!

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Microfarmer:
The whole set is a pergolla I bought on sale from Costco for half price. I've been looking for something that will protect my bananas and my delicate plants and that fits the bill. We always have a mild winter here but occasionally the tempts deep down to low 20's 2 to 4 times a year. None this year yet one low at 34. But normally the lows are low to high 40's.
I found out that as long as I have a cover on the canopy the banana leaves stay green all winter long. That's why I am looking now where I can buy clear polycarbonate sheets. If need be I can cover the sides with 6 mil clear plastics.
In the future I may regulate the temperature so I can grow more tropical plants like papaya and atemoya. I have an atemoya planted on the ground there right now and it is not loosing its leaves only the new buds dried out but the matured leaves are still green.
The pergola is 8 feet in height but I jack it up to 11 feet to accommodate my dwarf (future)bananas. I am planning to wrap the pillars the same round diameter with stucco. There will be no paths I plan.
On the 2nd thought , what you are saying is a good idea. Removable panels.
That I will think it over how it can be done. Thanks for the idea.
Do you have any other suggestion?

Thanks Taylor.

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I meant a base for the pillar framed out of wood, a bit larger than the pillar in diameter and square, not round, faced with brick, or stucco, or manufactured stone to provide a foundation for the pillars, not necessarily the columns themselves, stuccoed.

It looks like paths between the raised beds. My mistake.

I was thinking maybe the same poly sheeting stretched on a lightweight redwood frame that hooks to the top beam of the pergola. It'd store nice and flat and go up and down quickly, and you wouldn't have to staple plastic to your uprights.

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All your ideas are really good!
Better than mine. And eaisier to built than what I was thinking.
I think I will adopt to your ideas Microfarmer.
Thanks!

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NP Benny,
This will be cool to see turn out. It's like that want to grow Tomatoes year round...but Musa! Citrus too? Cool...(eating a Tangerine) :)

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Microfarmer:

Here's another great idea of yours.
But I am lost when you say it will go up and down quickly.
My question is do I need fasteners to put it up? And what kind?
Will it be semi-insulated so the heat stays inside the structure?
And last, what' is your idea hooking them up on top of the beam?
Please I need some good ideas.
The structure is all aluminum.

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Taylor:
I've been eating my harvested tangerines for 3 years now and I found out that the longer they grow the sweeter they get. But mostly satsumas.
I am planning to plant Clemenules from Spain in my plot and seedless Kishu my favorites. I will have also one atemoya there.

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great work!!!

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thanks Greenie.

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Baby Blue (Gina) is trying to root me some Satsumas...but it hasn't worked so far :(

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Taylor:
Satsumas are so common here in Calif and can be grafted to other mandarins easily or some other oranges or lemons.
If you want to learn how to graft PM me.

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Ill PM you soon.:)

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I don't think 6 mil polyethylene sheet on frames (or wrapped around the pergola) will do much for holding heat, but only enclose the pergola into a room and keep the wind out. You'd still prolly need to run a heater at night. It won't hold up to a lot of wind either.

For insulated clear polycarbonate panels on a frame you could use something like this... http://www.suntuf.com/images/PDFs/SU...F1200_2-07.pdf

Put a redwood frame around the panels with hooks on top (to attach to the top of the beams) and latches on the bottom (to secure the panels in place).

It should stand up to a pretty stiff wind, depending on the hardware you put it together with. When not in use in summer, the panels would take up a small amount of space in a corner of a shed. The multiwal sheet will insulate very well. Shoot Palram an email, and I'm sure they'd furnish you with a local supplier. This will hold trapped heat much better, and a heater may not be required. It's more upfront cost, but should last a lifetime.

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ThanksMicro.
I just emailed pallram.

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Looks like a lot of work, but rewarding!

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Jarred:
It's all FOR THE LOVE OF BANANAS!

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It's been raining a lot lately and the forecast more rain for the next 5 days.
I covered the canopy with clear plastic and I put some of my bananas and citrus there temporarily. Enclosed with the teepee dome is an atemoya.
Note that the dwarf Brazilian on the background was fried because I put up the canopy after we had a cold spell.

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I like the looks of your project! Nice work! Did any of my pictures help you out?

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Thanks High Brix.
Of course. Your pics inspired me to start my project. But of course the accumulation of data and pictures that I learned in this wonderful forum served me to inspire my project.
So you know who you are and I thank you all.

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And yet the CG is fine? Please explain!
I put mine in the basement because I didn't believe the 'hardy' theories...this is the exact confirmation I need.

Thanks

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And I got me some sand. Next is steer manure.

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Taylor:
This is a guess on my part : Notice that the Dwarf Brazilian is taller than the rest? It was also open to the elements and no protection from the wind or dew so when the tempt dropped it got fried. This also created a micro climate to the benefits of the ones that are shorter.
I had that pergola installed AFTER the DB was fried.

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I just got dumping the compost and the steer manure. Next will be course sand and pine bark and more steer manure. Any advice on what I should add more to the mix?
In the foreground is my rototiller. Once I got all the ingredients I will be ready to rototill the area.
I also found that I can get a bunch of bathroom glass sliding doors for $6 a piece. That made me think that those are good for cover on the roof. The glass can be remove from the enclosed metal.

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Your project is looking great, nice work!! I am excited to see the finished structure. Keep up the good work.

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Her's the 1/4 " rock size I am putting in the mix instead of course sand.



And here's how it looks after I spread it in my plat.
Next will be getting small pine bark and steer manure. Then I am ready to mix them all with my rototiller. And then....

I am ready to plant my bananas.

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High_brix:
Thanks for the nice compliment. I am also excited but I have a long way to go.
I am just shopping around where I can get the cheapest price. If I buy it at Home Depot, it's going to cost me a bundle.
It is better to buy them by the truckload.
Benny

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I think the 1/4 inch gravel is a good choice given what's underneath. Composted horse manure would be better than steer, but availability might be a issue for you. Be careful with uncured pine bark, it has a pH near 3. Mixing potash (or just ashes from real wood) directly with the pine bark is one way to buffer it. I would start with no more than a gallon per plat.

I'm jealous. You are at least 4 months ahead of me in your plat construction.

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Richard:
I noticed that you seem to be very knowledgeable on a lot of things concerning maintenance of plants.
Fortunately I can do everything that you suggested. And I thank you for a very sound advice.
The steer manure that I have in mind are ones that you buy at Home Depot that are already composted. I already put 15 bags in my plat but I want to put an additional 20 bags on top.
I put already 3 wheel barrows of small chips of bark and a 3 cu ft of red wood chips and I have a whole bunch in a pile of wood chips on standby. I also have a pile of the 1/4 " rock on a separate pile ready to add.
I also own a very good pH meter to test the soil which is crucial in taking care of my citrus in pots and now bananas.
And... I have a wood stove that I burn scrap wood, paper and what I have and use the ashes to raise the pH of the soil. I also use battery acid to lower the pH when I have to. And as an alternate I have different fertilizers that can raise or lower the pH in the long term.
To raise the pH I use flowable lime.
Richard the Spring is right around the corner so I am in a hurry to finish my plat to plant my new bananas that I acquired during this Winter. I am lucky to have 3 teenagers helping me do this things otherwise I will be behind also.
I just want to conditioned the soil so when all frost are gone I will be ready.
Thanks again for good info.

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Benny, you are right on top of nutrition and in an admirably frugal way! It is wise to monitor potted plant pH since our southern California water tends to raise the pH over time. If you use a fertilizer that contains humic acids then this is not an issue. The GroPower brand works out to be about $14 per tree per year. If your tree produces sixty fruits each year then thats about 25 cents per fruit not counting the water bill. It would seem your solution is far cheaper.

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Yes, I always think of ways how I can grow my trees in the most cheap ways that I can. And to me when you say admirably frugal way, I just had to smile because you hit me right in the head.
And thanks for all the good info you are giving us.
Benny

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Richard:
Here's the wood stove I am talking about where I can get ash to raise the pH of my soil.




And here's the progress of my project as of 2 9 08 I add the small bark chips and am about ready to spread some redwood bark soil conditioner I found laying around hidden in my yard.




Another angle to show the wood chips

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Benny, be careful with the steer manure. Too many salts!

Chicken manure is a better bet, as is horse poop or bat poop. Don't forget worm poop. Also, bone and blood meal and kelp meal are good ammendments.

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The following data might be helpful: ;)

Manure, Guano, etc. N - P - K
(composted)
Cow 0.2 - 0.1 - 0.2
Steer 0.7 - 0.3 - 0.4
Horse 0.7 - 0.3 - 0.6
Sheep 0.7 - 0.3 - 0.9
Sea Bird 1 - 10 - 1
Chicken 1.1 - 0.8 - 0.5
Shredded Alfalfa 2 - 0 - 3
Rabbit 2.4 - 1.4 - 0.6
Desert Bat 8 - 4 - 1
High-Nitrogen Sea Bird 13 – 12 - 2

Of these, "Sea Bird" and "Chicken" have the worst profiles for banana plants.

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Thanks for the warning Microfarmer.
Since I have not bought the steer manure yet I will switch then to chicken manure. Ther's not much difference in price.

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Richard:
It looks like alfalfa and sheep is the first choice and horse manure and cow the second best. Now I can decide which is the cheapest. Thanks for all the good info guys.

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According to your chart, chicken manure has more N, but also more P and K, but not that much more of each compared to rabbit, bat, and hi-nitro sea bird poop. I don't understand why it is the worst profile...

Chicken manure also has less accumulated salts than steer manure. Regular sea bird poop (not hi-nitro) seems to be a good profile for phosphorus and not too much nitrogen.

None of them are perfectly balanced. To bring up the low K numbers you can add more kelp meal (fast release), wood ashes (a little slower), or greensand, or crushed granite (very slow release...like 5-10 years). For more P numbers, you can add bone meal, rock phosphate, or the sea bird poop (not hi-nitro).

Kelp meal (from cold water kelp) will also have all the trace minerals and elements. Warm water kelp meal may contain mercury so be aware.

All these numbers are estimates and the actual material you use may have more or less than the above stated graph. Go to 10 websites to compare and you'll find 10 different N,P, and K numbers for the materials listed. A good soil analysis will tell you what it is you're lacking.

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Is it really the cheapest and more effective? Looks to me like going through all the math and all the effort to mix and match manure stuff, I would have thought that waiting for a sale on MiracleGro or MirAcid from the local Home Depot, Lowe's, or local garden supply store(MiracleGro-$9.49/10 lbs. on Sale, $14.99 Reg.; Vigoro $6.99/10lbs. on Sale, $9.99 Reg.) would be a lot more cost effective and convenient. Unless, of course, you're into this organic gardening stuff. And I wouldn't want to stop anyone from wanting to use organic stuff. But for economic and logistical issues, unless you have an unlimited source for the manure, I would question the practicality of going through the exercise of figuring which one is better to use, if you in fact will still have to buy and haul the stuff. And the mess!

It's a different thing is you have a convenient source at your disposal. If so, looking at the composition of the various manure products, one thing that stands out is that all of them are extremely lacking in Potassium. So, you'd still have to augment the material with it. If this were back home where I was growing up, all we'd do is burn a lot of leaves and grass and mix the ashes with the manure. Ah-h-h-h, but burning grass and leaves is no longer legal anywhere in this country, unless under certain conditions, but which still require a burn permit.

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An ideal ratio would be 16-1-24. Chicken manure is too high in P and too low in K by comparison.

Reading the directions on Miracle-Gro, it needs to be applied on a regular basis. Last I checked it was $20 to $35 per pound of Nitrogen depending on which version you buy. The price of the bag is far less important than the percentage of fertilizer per dollar.

Interesting fact about Miracle-Gro, it is manufactured by the same company and at the same factories as Scotts, Vigoro, Grow-More, Spectrum, Dyna-Grow, and several more. The company? Ray-O-Vac.

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Latest news:
I finally spread my soil. I just approximate the bark, sand, 1/4" rock , compost and clay (native soil) and mixed it with shovel. I will then compute and put the fertilizer later on good for bananas and for citrus. Meanwhile I'll let the soil settle and come Spring time, it's planting time. Thank you so much for a lot of input guys. I am learning a lot here. The ultimate decision will be mine of course depending on the availability of the materials and go on from there. Thanks guys.

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MiracleGro(24-8-16) on Sale @$9.49/10 lbs would have 2.4 lbs. of N per 10 lb. box, this would translate to $9.49/2.4 lbs. = $3.95 per pound N. Vigoro(12-5-8) on Sale @$6.99/20lbs. (Not 10 lbs as I earlier quoted. I just checked the remaining bags I have from L.A. I brought these when I had a project there, and placed them in my luggage. Home Depot doesn't sell them here in Seattle). Therefore, a bag would also have 2.4 lbs. of N per bag, which calculates to $6.99/2.4 = $2.91 per pound of N. Did I figure that correctly?

You will just have to decide for yourself, if the cost, hauling and mixing, and time and equipment is worth it, even if the cost of the fertilizer itself is cheaper than the above.

The application of the Vigoro is once every two months, since it's mixed with the soil. MiracleGro is a soluble material and is applied once every two weeks in the growing season and once a month during the cold season.

This is a surprise to me. I had seen labels and/or articles that said that Bayer-Pursell manufactured Vigoro, and Scott Company made MiracleGro and Shultz products. While certain lawn and garden products, including insecticides, with the labels: NuGro, Vigoro, Shultz, Bandini, Peters, etc. are made by a company under United Industries. Maybe Ray-O-Vac owns United Industries. I know that if you Google Vigoro, several of the above companies will appear on the main menu, most notably, Bandini.

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Yes, you've made my day as a math professor. That particular formulation of Miracle Gro I haven't seen. My issue with the Brand is the labeling on the back often leads to the fact the formulation is weaker than actually stated on the front.

A larger issue with these products for bananas is the disproportionate amounts of Nitrogen to Potash. You'd like the percentages reversed! There is also extra Phosphorus which will largely be ignored by the plant and if buffered by acidic soil will eventually go "downhill".

Bandini's claim to fame is the long-term contracts at several metropolitan sewage treatment centers, notably Los Angeles.

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Good job, Benny. I think for your lowest cost fertilizer, stick with Joe's recipe and the K-Mag you got from me. I can get N products more readily than the K-Mag if I have enough advance notice so let me know if you're in the area.

You mention running a gas line eventually. I am in the same boat as you but my long term plan is to eventually heat with buried pipe and circulating hot water. This takes care of the cold soil problems Richard mentioned earlier as well. The supplier I sent you other information on preivously sells tubing that I mgiht consider for this purpose but I don't think I'll get around to that until this summer.

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[quote=bencelest;29182]Latest news:
The ultimate decision will be mine of course depending on the availability of the materials and go on from there. Thanks guys.

Harvey:
Yes, I am leaning heavily towards using the fertilizer Joe and I got from you because I got them now and available and besides it is the cheapest and premium fertilizer that I can get anywhere. The proportion is different if I will use it for citrus and bananas but I already got the tripple 16 except the nitrate that Joe suggested as an additive for a perfect fertilizer.
But I am anxious to learn more and I have an open mind to the lively discussion being hold here from these intelligent fellows. It is very promising to listen. And I am learning a lot and compiling them on my permanent notebook.
And I thank you for picking up the pisang Klotek and the kenandrian and lacatan down South. Once I got the 2nd pup of I forgot the ones you mentioned it will be yours.
I am also will wait till this Summer maybe Autumn to initiate the gas lines and pipings . My main concern now is to plant my bananas and citrus and to protect them from the elements.
Benny

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Thanks, Benny. The Khandarin pup of mine died, maybe I over-watered it. My indoor growing room was a bit crowded, to say the least, and I was not always able to check moisture very well when watering. I think I should get them moved into my greenhouse by the end of the week after I have it heated and have functional vents.

By the way, my small Ae Ae is putting out its second new leaf right now since your visit and my second largest one has put out a huge new leaf. Still waiting on the largest one.

I still can't get over the size of that Ppisang Klotek "pup" Mitchel gave you in that contest!