Looking for specific information...
 

This afternoon I was studying some applications for some potential exterior uses for naturally-occuring soil organisms called mycorrhiza, in my landscape and lawn business, particularly during installation & transplant of plant material, and installation of new turf.

In the midst of doing that, I discovered that one group of them; called ENDO mycorrhiza, is known to be especially beneficial to tropicals, including banana !

But I typed it in "search" on this site and NOTHING came up...
Is there a past thread that discusses this on here?

Here's a blurb on it :

http://www.bio-organics.com/Mycorrhizae_Usage.html

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

if you're looking to buy some here is a link:

http://www.biconet.com/soil/rootGrowth.html

most of the research i have seen on its uses has been very non-committal, neither beneficial or harmful.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Good stuff! I'll have to read into that more!

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

I have heard it described as a symbiotic life form that helps it's host so that it can also benefit from it. It's like an interface between the plant's roots and the soil.

Think of it like an embryo/mother interface, ala, the placenta. It's s'posed ta break the soil down and feed it to the plant...kinda...

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

There's no question in the landscape, nursery and turf industry whether they're beneficial now.

The question has become whether or not they're truly cost-efficient to be utilized on any large scale in many professionals' programs for their clients; while still enabling the buisiness owners to be competitive in bid processes.

The link you displayed, inkcube, is a 'general purpose' mycorr package containing BOTH "endo" AND "ecto" spores...
I wouldn't waste the money for this product on tropicals...but it would be nice overall for moving 'normal' plants around in your yard and garden.
And it keeps for 2 years in the fridge, supposedly.

Someone interested in using mycorrhiza spores for starting any tropicals, including increasing the survival % of banana pups, would have to find a source of endo mycorrhiza by itself, for the best value for the dollar.

I don't have any stock in this company or anything, but this order page shows 8 types of "endo". You can get it in regular sized, or a spayable "micronized" form :
http://www.bio-organics.com/Mycorrhizae_Products.html

But keep in mind that mycorr needs to have a "host plant" at all times.
Either that or it needs to be occasionally re-applied, because it needs 'active'
root systems to attach itself to to enable itself to perpetuate.

So...in theory...even a 'cover crop' of sprouts, or something akin to that, could suffice growing on the soil that you would normally grow bananas in, but for some reason are not using at the time.....just an idea!




I'm just kind of shocked it's not been discussed on bananas.org AT ALL...even as a 'theory'.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

from the studies i have seen there is no definitive proof that plants with the fungi grow better than those without - don't get me wrong i am not knocking it, in fact i published a paper many years ago about the benefits of fungi introduced through compost - helped fight downy/powdery mildew & blackspot in roses. many studies done with orchids have shown there is no benefit from the fungi and no harm either. also with the studies i have seen using some trees species, Quercus & Pinus, show that the fungi needs to be re-applied (as you stated) and that some plants will be resistant to being re-infected. i have seen nothing on the fungi/banana studies. i also haven't seen anything on whether it is cost effective.

i had a colleague that swore by the benefits of ecto- and endomycorrhiza but his landscape was never any better than his neighbors.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

A small quantity of these bacteria are in most soil mix products produced by major manufacturers -- for example: Kellogg's Garden Products, Dr. Earth, etc.

If you want a concentrated source of soil inoculate, the best product I've come across is labeled "Grolife". It comes in tablets or 20lb bags, or by the cubic yard for large-scale applications. When I broadcast the granular on an area of native soil and plants, it appeared that every viable seed -- dormant or not sprouted within a few weeks. What a show of wildflowers! Of course, I had to then pull all the unwanted laurel sumac sprouts out ... You can read more about the product at

http://www.gropower.com/GroLife/GroLife%20Bro.pdf

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Cool ! Did you do any "side by side" unbias growing tests with it, to convince youself 1st, like I have?

But again, for the benefit of the banana-loving members of this site...this Grolife product is an "all-porpose" mix of endo and ecto spores.

Tropical plant growers would be looking for ENDO spores exclusively, for their best $ worth.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

inkcube, I don't know what to tell you...
Maybe it's time to open that study you had up again.

I've worked with it now in my business here in Ohio for at least 3-4 years, doing my own little side-by-side unbias 'trials' 1st on some seed renovation jobs in the fall one year...and the results I saw were unmistakable in the difference in the root development !

What I'm weighing now is whether it's worth it or not to go hog-wild and invest in the product for the landscape install & transplant part of my biz...the much more competitive and risky part!

This is the most informative, up-to-date site on mycorr I've seen, that doesn't sell it (much) :

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Marco,

Although bananas and many other tropicals will benefit from the Endo', the Ecto' will have no harm to them. You can buy the mix economically or pay exorbitant prices for the isolated biotic. Take a look at the contents of the GroLife product, it is balanced and self-contained.

As for my test: about half of a 50' by 50' area of undisturbed sparse grass and wildflowers was broadcast with GroLife and the other 1/2 received nothing. The soil is clay with a bit of loam and a lot of golfball to baseball size rocks. The GroLife was broadcast in the last week of March and predictably it rained another 1/2 inch over the following week. The difference in the two areas was dramatic.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Use good FINISHED compost !!! If Mycorrhizae didn't cost so much $$$ maybe we could afford to do more trials???? In all my research of looking into products that help the soil or plant.... everything always comes back to good finished compost!! If you have that, don't worry about the little things.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

High_Brix,

When planting fruit trees (not bananas), I use 2 parts of native soil (clays), 2 parts screened loam, and 1 part commercial soil amendment that contains humic acids and trace amounts of mycorrhizal fungi, plus 1/2 cup of GroPower 5-3-1 per cubic yard to increase the humic acid content. The surface is mulched 5 inches thick with screened finished mulch. The bottom of the hole is soaked with 1 cup of liquid gypsum mixed in 5 gallons of water, two days prior to planting.

When regenerating growth in an area that has been burned by fire or recently cleared of brush, my colleague hires a pump truck and they make a slurry of screened loam, fine finished compost and mycorrhizal granular. The mix rate is one 20lb bag for every 5 yards of dry material. No seed is added because it is simply not needed.

Here's a before-and-after photo of two cherry trees I planted yesterday. These are the low-chill Minni Royal and Royal Lee varieties planted adjacently for cross-pollination.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Very nice set up and a beauty.

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That's a good point. I always try to make the soil well drained by adding sand compost and bark and top soil and steer manure. I always think how can I do it as cheap as I can.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Yeah...I forgot that, too, when I was discussing this with inkcube...
The mycorr typically can't be trusted to be just 'cast' into a compost pile and stirred in, no matter how well "finished" you think it is, unless it all will be used at that point in time.

In other words...Leaving mycorr in compost piles risks damaging the spores. You're better off adding it to the compost just when you need to.

i.e.- The endomycorr I've used in turf is sprayed right on the seed after the soil's been prepared, exactly at the site where it'll be most functional.
It is then that I rake about 1/2 " of finished compost over it.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Is this product a liquid? How many $$ does a container cost and about how many square feet does it cover? A 20-lb bag of granular costs $55 and in practice covers 2,000 square feet in a turf seeding project.

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Look at the 2nd item, the "Micronized Mycorrizal Inoculant (BEIM)" on this page :
http://www.bio-organics.com/Mycorrhizae_Products.html

'Mirconized' means it is small enough to be dissolved and sprayed out of a pesticide-free backpack sprayer or whatever...any mycorr spores shouldn't be applied with chlorinated water though; the chlorine can and will damage the spores...so "hose end" sprayers are out if you're in an area where the water's chlorinated.

For my continued trials, I bought two 3 # bottles last summer at $87 each.
(From the website) : One 3# bottle covers 6400 sq ft of turf.

$87 / 6.4 = $13.59 per 1000 sq. ft.

(The 'trail size' of Micronized endomycorr works out to $15/ 1000....not bad!)


Now let's take the Grolife scenario:

"A 20-lb bag of granular costs $55 and in practice covers 2,000 square feet in a turf seeding project."

$55 / 2 = $27.50 per 1000 sq.ft.

But obviously...the Grolife is in easy 'ready to use' bags, and there's value there for many people.

I had to invest in a brand-new Solo backpack sprayer, about $70 off the internet, to designate just for micronized mycorr application because I was paranoid that the pesticide residue in the other ones I own would do some harm to the spores.

In the long run, the extra peace of mind has been worth it to me, though.

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Great! So that particular liquid product turns out to be cheaper per unit area than the granular I've tried. Further, I think that the granular is a reasonable price, so to me the liquid has great value! I don't know why High_Brix would find the cost prohibitive.

:jumpingonbednaner:

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

Because I've been reading that it's the endomycorr spores that bananas and other tropicals respond to, I'm going to do some more side-by-side trails with the spores, but THIS time with the next group of banana pups I get.

Hopefully, I'll get a fair sampling to work with; 6 to 8 maybe.
Then I'll take half of them and treat them with an endomycorr "root dip' as I pot them up...and leave the other half untreated.
And, of course, grow them all in the same light conditions, same water, etc...

It should be interesting to see what happens...maybe I'll post "progress reports" on here, too, by means of our digitial camera (once I get it fixed).

Maybe a few others on here could do this too? We could get a "growing consensus":ha: on endomycorr effects on bananas worldwide !
:2791:

Re: Looking for specific information...
 

I should explain... (MY BAD)...I work with large farms. I look at product cost on a per acre basis. This product is way to expensive for most farmers to use on a large scale. In 500 acres of trials, I have not seen the crop response needed to justify the cost. On the other hand...In a garden, greenhouse, lawn, backyard stuff, the cost is no big deal, put'rrrrr on. At the farm...it is cost prohibitive so I always recomend compost. Just my point of view.