Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

i was reading every ones new post and it occurred to me that perhaps and this is speculation on my part that if a specific gene or grouping of gene produce certain chemical environments with in the specified plant then this in and of its self creates a growth environment specific to this plant. if a new grope of cells were introduced in to the donors chemical environment at least on a superficial Level those cells would be affected to some degree in there metabolic and growth patterns would be altered.

for example. one could expect changes to leaf shape or fruit yields timing of fruiting and onset of offspring initiation could also be affected either positively or negatively. as i said this is speculation but it dose have a ring of logic to it.

there have been many studies done on both plant and animal cells where by the specific cells were subjected to altered chemical environments. this is the bases for drug studs. applying chemicals to a cell or group of cells and then analyzing how that cell reacts to the new environment. there are almost always some changes.

for example one mite expect to see timing rates change, cell wall densities changing + or -, slowing or speeding of metalization rates of reproduction and so on and so forth.

it stands to reason that if this graft is made. there is some effect of chemical transfer even if its only in the regions just adjacent to the graft its self. thees cells along the graft will behave inherently differently then the cells that are more distant from the graft. i would think this effect would relate to total cell volume. so there for the younger the graft the grater the effect on the organism in totality. whether this changes either plants life cycle remains to be seen. but i think it imprudent to put forth the supposition that there is no affect this is contrary to logic.

I hope this makes sens. being dyslexic makes thees concepts extremely hard for me to convey coherently.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

hey mauro keep it up. dont stop your experiments/research untill you are satisfied.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I agree, have fun with your project!

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

:woohoonaner:

:goteam:

:lurk:

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Paulo, thank you for sharing your point of view. Lately, the president of my company said that the The days of the Big Three car makers are gone. Now we are at the age or era of the Small Hundreds. It is really wonderful that we can share and discuss our ideas and point of views from the four corners of the earth through the internet. I am not an expert in Botany. I am just a small guy who likes plants. Many people have asked me why graft banana plants? There is no meaning, no reason to do it. I started to think about it and then I remembered. I was quite surprised when I came to live in Okinawa and met an American family who had the skill to can a lot of vegetables including tomatoes. My family knew nothing about it. I asked myself why don't we have such skill? Then later on I understood why Brazilians didn't care to learn how to can or preserve vegetables. There is no need if you have fresh vegetables all year round. Brazil is a tropical and subtropical country, no cold winter. I think if I lived in a tropical country and grew bananas naturally I wouldn't care to graft them either. But as I live in a cold country, now, I have the urge to find a way to grow them here. I think I was lucky to find the musa basjoo to use as a root stock for my graftings. I can't prove anything yet, but one thing I can tell you, I do a lot of thinking and the messages you write to me give me a lot of inspiration and support. Maybe the friendship we build discussing the subject is more important than the experiment itself. I am counting on your comments. Thank you.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I agree Mauro, there is a saying that necessity is the mother of invention. Even when I was a boy I attempted grafting apple branches onto a pear tree for the fun of it and to learn. Maybe something will become of your experiments ? Do not lose heart.

Sincerely,


Jeff

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Hey Mauro,

I really like the fruiting papaya plant in your Avatar. Any idea what kind it is?

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I had this papaya plant in my yard in Okinawa. I bought the plant at a local nursery. I think it is a hybrid of the Hawaiian papaya which is very sweet. There are many kinds of papayas in Okinawa but they like to eat them green as a vegetable, like the Mexicans eat the chayote. In Brazil we always ate the papaya as a fruit when it is ripe. I think the Okinawans consider the papaya a vegetable, not a fruit. You never see them eating the papaya when it is ripe. Long time ago when I traveled to Manila, Philippines, I always ate the papaya in the morning breakfast with calamansi juice on it. It's delicious. Here in Japan we call the calamansi, Chinese little lemon. It tastes very good. I think Mr. Chong knows the calamansi lemon. I used to travel a lot here in Asia, especially China, but I've never seen the calamansi anywhere outside the Phillipines. Not even in Vietnam.

Re: Back-yard naked Banana Scientist
 

Hi, Scot !
I haven't heard from you lately. How are you? Here is some information about plants:
The fact that scientists now recognize that plants have an immune system is the result of pioneering work by Paul Schulze-Lefert, a director of the Plant Breeding Institute for eight years. Initially, plants were believed to have inflexible and underdeveloped defense systems, but in a series of publications, Schulze-Lefert described the molecular foundations of sophisticated protection mechanisms. While they have neither circulation nor specialized immune cells, plants do have a dual radar system in each cell, one external and one internal. The external radar consists of a series of receptors. When one of these recognizes a pathogen, it sets off an alarm that triggers a defensive response. If the pathogen still manages to penetrate into the cell, it comes up against a second line of defense. If the relevant sensor is triggered the cell undergoes apoptosis, as a way of protecting the rest of the plant. "These two radar screens are a highly dynamic system based on resistance genes that constantly develop in the race against pests," says Schulze-Lefert. "The fact that whole crops are sometimes destroyed by pathogens has to do with the constraints placed on this co-evolutionary process ever since the pool of resistance genes started being restricted by breeding and vegetative reproduction. Our job is to give the plants new resistance genes, ideally combinations of them."

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

They are very common here in California because we have both good citrus weather and many immigrants from the Philippines.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

It's just like me. I have many citrus fruits from Brazil here in Japan although the climate is too cold for citrus fruits. We Brazilians love the Tahiti Lime, which we call it lemon. In Brazil I've never seen the calamansi little lemon. I do enjoy eating papaya with calamansi juice and watch the sunset at Manila Bay. Someday I'll be back there again. Thanks.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

That's not true Mauro, Satsuma mandarins and Yuzu citrus are grown in Japan.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Yes, but not Honshu main island. Citrus are grown in Shikoku, another island where it is 5 degrees celcius higher than here in the winter.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Even still those varieties are very cold tolerant, you ought to try.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Thank you for your advise jeffreyp, I already have most kinds of citrus in my orchard, including the Satsuma which we call it here Onshu Mikan. I have the ponkan, the dekopon also which are very good. What I meant is that although we grow so many citrus fruits around here, the climate is not proper. The winter hurt them pretty bad. This year I sent 2 boxes full of Satsuma Mikan to my family in Okinawa. The navel orange doen't grow well here, also the Eureka lemon, that kind they grow in Cicily Island, Italy. All the navel oranges and lemons we buy at the market are imported from California, US.
You are right about that they are very cold tolerant. Last week, I went to Gifu Prefecture where the altitude is very high and it snows a lot and I saw many Satsuma Mikan planted in the mountains. In the southern region of Mie where I live they grow the dekopon in greenhouses for export. I learned that Japan exports a lot of Satsuma Mikan to Canada and I was quite surprised.
Although the climate is a little bit too cold for lemons, i succeeded in growing Lisbon lemons, Mexican limes, Tahiti limes, Okinawan hiramin lemon and even calamansi, not to mention Brazilian wild lemons, which they use for rootstock in Brazil.
Here is a new video about my bananas.
Bananas is the only fruit I wasn't able to harvest yet. But I shall!
YouTube - My Grafted Lady Finger_0001.wmv
Please forgive my bad English. My false teeth makes a funny sound.
So long for now.
hope to hear from you again.
bye.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Very interesting, Mauro.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Hi Jack Daw, you live in a cold country too. I'm a loco man, that means crazy in Spanish. When I started growing bananas in my room it became a banana jungle and my wife almost asked me for a divorce. I have 2 edible varieties which didn't die in the past 5 years. The Lady Finger from Okinawa, Ryukyu Island, which I believe is a sister of the musa liukiuensis, Ito Bashoh, and the Raja Puri from India. The banana pups my brother brought me from Brazil all died during the first winter. Send me your address and I will send you the banana pups next spring. Make sure you plant them in a place where they get enough sunshine all winter. The banana plants like a lot of water in the summer but during the winter they hate moisture. Don't give them any water if possible. Another thing, maybe you should not graft them like me or people may send you to the same mental institution where my wife wants to send me.
Best Regards,
Mauro Gibo

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Heh, thanks Mauro, but I too have several varieties including Musa 'Raja Puri' and Lady Finger is unlikely to survive here. I'm interested in your grafting techniques, seeing that the plant lives, it just gives me hope that it might survive. Will you write a complete guide on how to graft bananas, once you succeed? That would definitely be worth a shot here.
How long did it take before the graft was accepted by basjoo P-stem remnants?

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Of course, I will post all the procedures of how to do it. But first, I have to make a video of me harvesting my ripe bananas and eating them with great delight. I am quite positive this year, because the coldest days are already gone. After February 15, the Japanese apricot tree starts blooming. That means that the weather will get warmer everyday. First I choose the 2 pups of about the same size and split the corms with a disinfected knife, tie them together and control the growth of the rootstock without killing it. I am not a botanist so I have no scientific knowlege of the behavior of the plant. But I believe that the cells of the bananas can recognize a friend from a foe. I let them exchange cells for 2 or three months then I stop the growth of the rootstock completely by cutting it down every time it grows and let the scion grow freely. Later on I will give you more specified information. I rely a lot on intuition. If you try, please have in mind that the environment is also very important for the growth and fusion of the banana pups.
Bye for now.
Hope to hear from you again.
Please wish me luck, I need it very much.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Good luck, pal, I hope you'll be succesful!

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I saw the video of the lady finger/basjoo, do you have any lady finger banana plants to compare that have not been grafted?


In regard to citrus, there are many other varieties that I didn't mention that are very cold hardy. Some of these varieties with a cold hardiness rating can be found on a german site located here:

Zitruspflanzen-Grtnerei Voss



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Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Or here (go into each section to read about those citruses in English):
Citrusy

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I'm sorry but I don't have. Out of 9 pups which I brought from Okinawa, 8 died in the first 2 years. Only the one I grafted survived. If I had I could compare. I will bring pups from Okinawa again if the Quarantine doesn't catch me.
Bye and thanks for the information on the citrus. I will find a way to get them and plant in my orchard.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Mauro, I think you know that the Citrus grown in Brazil (and everywhere else) is native to China?

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

and Vietnam, Yes. I also know that the lemon was taken to Rome through the silk road during the Roman Empire since "All Roads leaded to Rome"!
The Brazilian wild lemon I was telling you about grew wild in Vietnam, too. I bought them in the market in Hanoi. I think the Portuguese and the Italians took the citrus to Brazil during Colombus days.
I do a lot of reading but I don't talk much about it, because people will think that I'm trying to be the bright guy.
I really like history.
Thank you for you comment.
Please be in touch.
Mauro

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Oh, but I think the history of the fruit is the next best thing to eating it!

So yes, the far east did not have any fruits (guavas, chilies, etc.) of the western hemisphere until a Spanish Galleon landed in Manilla in 1526. The captain made a small fortune! A few ships made the reverse trek in the next few years, but in 1531 The Spanish and the Dutch arrived in the Caribbean and what is now Venezuela with small fleets of ships carrying many agricultural goods to trade. And so it began!

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Richard, I didn't know you liked history too. I love history. For example, if you come to Japan the first Japanese food they want you to eat is "tempura", but most Japanese don't know it was the Portuguese missionaries who introduced it to Japan around 1533 in Tanegashima. Kagoshima Prefecture. Tempura came from the word "tempero", which is Portuguese. "Kabocha", in Japanese is pumpkin, it was introduced in Japan from Cambodia. "Jagaimo" is potatoes, it was introduced from Jakarta. "Pan", bread, came from the word pao, which is also Portuguese. It's interesting to know about the history of our culture isn't it?
The only part of history which makes me sad is that the great Christopher Columbus, died in a convent in Valladolid, Spain, pennyless and forgotten by everyone.
When you have time please write to me about history. And I will tell you about what I've learned here in Asia.
Bye for now and thank you.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Some say Christopher Columbus was technically Italian because he was born in Genoa, Italy but spain gets all the credit.
I think it's interesting to see how plants evolve when grown in different parts of the world. The Japanese Ichiban eggplant comes to mind, quite a big variation from the black beauty variety we grow here in the states. Do you know what USDA gardening zone you are in ?

Jelitto Perennial Seeds: Japan Hardiness Zones



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Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I didn't know but I checked it . It's 9a. I believe.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

There are many banana varieties that will grow in zone 9a but even still I hope your grafting does confer some benefit.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Jeffreyp, has anyone harvested edible bananas in zone 9a in US?
I mean not in greenhouses, in the open field.
I was told that the Raja Puri was cold tolerant, but that wasn't true.
About 5 years ago we didn't have the Raja Puri here in Japan. Some guys, banana enthusiasts, imported few seedlings from Canada. I asked my brother to look for the Raja Puri in Brazil for me and as he couldn't find any in Brazil, he bought the Raja Puri in California and brought them to me here in Kameyama. Out of 72 seedlings only 5 survived the first winter and those that survived looked pretty bad. So I took 2 seedlings to Okinawa where the climate is subtropical and I have harvested good bananas these past years.
If you know edible bananas that can produce in the open field in zone 9a, could you tell me their names, please.
Thank you,
Mauro.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Jeffreyp, in Brazil I've seen one banana plant produce 4 bunches at the same time. I saw a picture edited at a Brazilian farmers magazine called Globo Rural where the farmer cut down the plant few inches above the ground and it produced a big bunch without any leaves at all.
That's why I believe there is something enigmatic, mystic, about the banana plants.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Mauro, Raja Puri can't have seedlings, wasn't it some Hybrid (Helen's...)?

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

As far as I know, no Japanese has ever harvested any edible banana grown in the open field here in mainland Japan, except in greenhouses.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I meant small plants grown in labs through tissue culture. They looked like leeks. My brother hid 72 plants in a small chocolate box so the customs wouldn't find them. Japan forbids the import of banana plants from Us. Only from Canada is okay. But I didn't find anyone in Canada to send them to me. I hope the results will justify the means though. I don't feel bad about smuggling them because they were guaranteed desease free plants.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Mauro,
As we discussed before, there is a problem with the USDA cold hardiness zones. For some people, "9a" is about 10 nights a year of temperatures dropping from 35 F to 25 F and otherwise daytime temperatures above 40 F. However, for a lot of people "9a" is daytime temperatures in the high 30's and nighttime temperatures in the low 20's. Obviously, fruiting bananas grown in the 1st example are not likely to survive in the 2nd.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Actually, they can be shipped from U.S. to Japan provided
1. they are corms with no leaves and insignificant stalk and very clean - no dirt.
2. the nursery has a CITES permit or gets a phytosanitary certificate for the corm.

The key is that it must be a corm - therefore falling into the seed and bulb category of plant material.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

At the time I didn't know about the Bananas. Org and I didn't have any American friend interested in farming or plants. Now it's different. I know people like you could help me, Richard.
I'm counting on you to get information about importing procedures. Thanks.
I really don't enjoy smuggling because I also work for the Japanese Government. I'm a bad boy.
Thank you for the information.
Bye.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Paleolithic Humans and Culture of the Ryukyu Archipelago

It has been said that humans emerged on earth about 40 million years ago. In Japan, at the Iwajuku site in Gunma Prefecture, flaked stone tools dated about 30,000 years ago have been excavated. In all there are about 5,000 sites in Japan from the Paleolithic age.
While tools have been found in abundance from the Paleolithic era, human remains have not been excavated in any great quantity and there is very little concrete knowledge about the Stone Age humans.
The total picture of Paleolithic humans was made substantially clearer with the discovery of the Minatogawa remains found in 1967 in Okinawa. It was a complete fossil find showing the skull, hands, and feet of a modern human and was dated to 17.000 years ago. This discovery allowed researchers to get a clear and concrete idea of the appearance of Paleolithic humans and contributed to a great advance in research on the Stone Age.
There have been finds of human fossils in other parts of Okinawa as well; the Yama****a Dojin human in Naha City, the Shimoji-genjin human on Kume-jima Island, and the Pinza-abu human on Miyakojima Island.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

If the primitive man started cultivating the banana plant 10.000 years ago, the Okinawans should have a very long history of banana farming since they have been there since 17.000 years ago.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

it depends on the variety. It seems you don't have a large selection to choose from.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

What I am trying to say is that maybe I already have a cold tolerant lady finger variety acclimatized to this type of climate without knowing. The weather in Japan during summer doesn't differ from the Philippines or Malasya, it's very hot and humid. The winter is the problem, because we get cold freezing winds from Siberia. The Raja Puri didn't do well after I grafted them because they are extremely tropical. But my lady finger as it is already acclimatized to a subtropical climate and has more similarities to the musa basjoo is doing better. It just a supposition, though.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Hallo Bon dia Mauro,

Unfortunatly you are wrong. I repeatedly harvested edible sweet bananas
in the open ground without using green house here in Shizuoka City on the
Pacific coast about the center of the main land of Japan of which climate
zone is 9a/b where the lowest temperature dropped even to minus ２℃ for
a coule of days since the beginning of this month.
Here is a photo of one of the bananas I ever harvested.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Looks more like "Fortunately" he is wrong!

Nice photo. :woohoonaner:

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Asacomm, that's great! You are the only one I know of, now, that has been successful and I am happy to be wrong. But as you know that doesn't mean that I will be successful too. Because Shizuoka gets the warm south wind from the Pacific Ocean even in the winter. Here in Kameyama, where I live, at the foot of the Suzuka Mountain Range the climate is much colder than Shizuoka.
We have a lot of frost which is worst than snow. The day after I made the video of my grafted banana, we had a heavy frost that terrified me. I thought it was the end of my bananas. But I just checked on them and they look fine. I still have great hope of attaining success.
By the way, tell me what kind of edible banana produced fruit at your place?
It makes me very curious.
Por favor!
Obrigado.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I feel the same way, I give him my congratulations!
To tell you guys the truth I know somebody else who has been successful too, but it doen't count because he has a hot spring near by, and the enrionment is really warm.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

I mean environment. Please forgive my wrong spelling, my eye sight fails me. Sorry.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Mauro,

I was thinking about your climate and it's not too different from southern Georgia here in the USA. You can see from the photos after some hard freezes the bananas suffered some fried leaves but they came back in the spring/summer. I think your disappointments have more to do with variety.

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstrea...1/36010048.pdf

Jeff

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Wow, Jeffreyp! That's good information. I will read it at least a hundred times so I can apply it to my orchard. Sometimes I felt kinda stupid for trying to grow bananas here, but now I feel more confident. I felt very discouraged when I lost the pups my other brother brought from Brazil. My second brother brought me pups of 6 different varieties popular in Brazil and I lost all of them in the first winter about 6 years ago. At present the only edible varieties I have is the Raja Puri and the Okinawan banana which I call Lady Finger. If you have more information, please let me know. My real aim is to harvest fresh bananas. I didn't know our friend from Shizuoka had been successful already. I just don't know the type of banana he has. I hope he will tell me.
Thanks, i really appreciate your help.

Re: Grafting Bananas by the Insistent Banana Grower - Mauro
 

Hallo Boa tarde Mauro,

The following photo shows the banana that I harvested last automn.
This banana was potted in 60 littre plastic container placed outside in the
open field throughout the year including winter time. It also got down to
minus 2 deg.C a coule of times. But the banana went through and bore
very delicous bananas.
The friends on this forum identified it would most probally Namwah's sub-
group "Pisang Awak".

The name of the banana of the photo that I posted this morning is totally
unknown although some identifier guesses as "Cardaba".