Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Hi folks,

How wonderful the is Internet.. a whole subculture of banana fanatics... Awesome!

My family live in the Northern Rivers region of New South Wales, Australia, just below the Queensland border. We're currently looking to buy a small acreage on which to live out our rural dream.

A commercial banana farm in our desired area has come on the market and I write here in the hope of quickly learning enough about bananas to get a handle on..

1/ The state of the banana industry (particularly in Australia)

2/ The ease of growing bananas and therefore the possibility of succes for our running the farm (without any previous experience of either farming or bananas),

3/ Whether we would be better off turning the farm to other uses and what other crops might suit the red volcanic soil, sub tropical climate and steep hillside terrain of the property.

4/ whether we'd be better off regenerating native forest on the property.

Any and all comments, criticism and advice, would be welcome.

A big concern centers on the possible degraded state of the soil or poisonous toxins remaining therein.

We understand that arsenic has been used in the past, in Australian banana plantations and wonder if there are soil tests which would enable a good picture of the state of the soil.

Thanks in advance

Nigel
Byron Bay

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Im not sure what part of australia they grow in but tree ferns are a big business and the larger ones can go for an extreme amount of money. a thought if your plans don't work out for the banana farm.. I THINK those rainbow eucalyptus trees come from that area 2 and can command a big price tag

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

My recent reading noted that the Cavendish strain in Australia was having a terrible time with disease. Best to check that out and/or value the land without the banana factor, as it may be nil.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Thanks guys,

I'll be sure and check out the inside scoop on the cavendish strain

and

search for likely niche alternatives

all good stuff

Nigel

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Byron Bay is a LONG LONG way from the Queensland border!

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

We are living on a small property in southwest Mexico and after 7 years here, I'm getting the idea that comes with the local farmers' visions and failures...look around and see what other locals are doing. Are the banana guys selling or buying land?

We're sure that cocos, mangos and nothing else grow near us without major attention to new pesticides every year, and we've decided that income from the land will be minimal. And, it's very nice.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

A soil test should be easily done by any local ag lab, and you will get a lot more info and advice than just the arsenic levels. Biomass content, aridity, acidity, available mineral, nitrogen........
As a business addition you might consider using your "expired" trees for hog feed. My relatives are doing that in the Philippines. They replace over half the feed they would normaly buy with banana "tree trunks". (I know they aren't really trees.) The only trick is slicing,(not crushing or juicing), the trunks small enough. 1/8", or 3 mm is about right. Smaller gives the stomach problems, and larger leave to much undigested.
I'm working on a machine to do that for them. A giant deli slicer. Get back to me if you find a need for such a machine. I would share the design with you, and might supply unique parts at cost.
Good luck with the pastoral perambulations.
Jack

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

tropical race four...

Scientists fight a devastating banana blight : The New Yorker

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Howdy Nigel: Yup, I'd go for a soil test before I would do anything else! Also do your due diligence and see what other farmers are up too! In other words, you could loose your butt in this transaction! Also ask the seller why he is wanting to get rid of the property?
,
If it is for a normal reason, ie retirement; moving, burned out, etc...it may be worthwhile to to continue your research. In addition I would draw up a purchase contract, requiring the seller to guarantee, the land is as indicated, allowing you to do a series of soil tests, throughout the property; and finally making sure that is was never a hazardous materials dump site! :-o. Use bail out clauses, in your contract... finally making sure that is was never a hazardous materials dump site...I your tests come back positive, for arsenic...run like hell, from the deal!

Stay Safe,Tom Portland, OR. USA

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Read this guide cover to cover before you make a decision:

Subtropical banana grower's handbook
from:
Home | Agriculture, Fisheries & Forestry | Queensland Government

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Awesome advice... thanks to everyone who responded.

I'm checking out the property on Friday 28th and feel a lot better prepared thanks to you fine folks.

Cheers

Nigel

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Hi Veronica,
I see by your map reference that you are somewhere in the Northern Rivers, so I'm surprised that you would consider the Queensland border a long way away.

It takes me less than 40 mins to drive across the border to Coolangatta airport. In aussie terms that's barely a hop and a skip.

In mentioning my location I felt I was addressing a mostly international forum, and therefore drew with a broad brush stroke. I hope you didn't think I was being deceptive.

Cheers and thanks for taking an interest anyway.

Nigel

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Nigel,
Hello
It might be worthwhile having a talk to Ian Gerrard or Jeremy Bright at the DPI, Wollonbar Research Centre ph # 6626 1200 (located between Goonellabah and Alstonville on the Brunxner Higway) or Jim Aston DPI Murwillumbah ph # 66 723571. They'll be happy to answer questions you have re. Banana growing in this area.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Sorry Nigel! I made a mistake! (A pretty dumb mistake) . I thoughtthe Qld boarderwas a long way I have to think again.You obiviously have a better judgment of distances than I do and probably a wider ,better knowledge of the roads and new bypasses etc. I don't travel by road much at all. The prospect of your new venture is exciting May it all go well for you.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

That's a fantastic resource. Thanks for posting it :bananas_b

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

keep in mind that there are many other tropical fruits which can be grown instead of banana

while store shelf Nain sells for $1kg Lychee goes for $8kg and Longan $6kg
Jakfruit $5kg Sapodilla $6kg

all or none of these may be suited to your area, but if there are Asians these fruit are popular

as you said about the banana fanatic subculture, so it is with other tropical fruits.
Some growers even have a wait list of customers to be called FIRST when the Lychee are ripe.

I don't know about anywhere else, but in Florida there is a real demand for other tropical fruits that is rarely met locally.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

These are exactly the kind of answers I was hoping for so a big THANKS to all.. any more sub-tropical cropping alternatives are welcome. Preferably easy grow, low maintenance, high return... LOL, as if!!

The site has a steep sided, North East aspect. I've noticed recenlty that a few other farms in the area with similar topology are growing Dragon Fruit. I understand it to be a big producer but, while it looks great, the taste doesn't deliver on that promise.

I'll check out the local lychee situation too.

I wonder if there is any reference where one can match soil types to appropriate crops?

Cheers

Nigel

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Sustainable Farming News & Biological Agriculture Information. » Blog Archive » Growing Root Crops in Red Soil


searching for red volcanioc soil leads me to
avocados, kiwifruit, passionfruit, rhubarb, apples and mangoes

I've seen quite a bit of talk about mango "Kensington Pride" in Oz.
IIRC flowering is irregular in some areas... something about the winter.
I was only reading it for research on Paclobutrazole and other PGRS.

This guy has Jaboticaba which I had neglected to mention due to their slow nature. Macadamia is listed on his site also.
Jabotica would be a good alternative to restoring native trees. You don't see many commercial growers because they can take 5-15 years to make fruit. They eventually will make multiple crops a year, some two, some six !
They are shallow rooted and may require irrigation (depends on rain/soil type)
Food Connect | The people


Here is subtropical coffee? holy smoke!!
these guys are close to you too !!! check the map
I like coffee a LOT because it seems more like a need than a mango. I doubt demand will EVER dry up.
Our Industry | Australian Subtropical Coffee Association

Since you want others....
Cherimoya Annona cherimola
cherry of the Rio Grande Eugenia aggregata
Brazilian cherry Eugenia brasiliensis
Guava
Japanese plum Eriobotrya japonica
Passion fruit Passiflora edulis
White Sapote Casimiroa edulis
Starfruit Averrhoa carambola

and here I was just going to post this

and hint that you might be a kiwi

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

There is a very definitive guide to commercial propagation of bananas on youtube by scott nelson.

Best information around.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Hi Folks,

Well, my wife and I went to see the two banana farms on Friday and we were fortunate to run into the banana farmer who works the neighbouring property. His first words to us were "I hope you're not greenies!", meaning anti-pesticides.

We had to answer in the affirmative, we do indeed fall into the broad category of vegetarian, tree-hugging hippies. We buy organic food and yearn for a world free of contaminated, genetically modified, heavily refined processed foods for our daughter to inherit. This guy was totally comitted to a better world through chemicals.. he could have been a Monsanto salesman for the depth of his commitment to pesticides, claiming that once a year he sprays his entire plantation by plane. He told us the 'so-called' organic farmers at our local farmers market were just a con and that the only way you could be sure that a piece of fruit was organic was if you found grubs inside it.

It was a shocking reminder that we've been living this chemical experiment of pesticide use for so long, this man, I guess in his late fifties, was aware of no alternative. And ignorant of the changes going on in the world - changes that the big supermarkets are already aware of and clearing more and more shelf space for. Today's consumers are better informed, more and more of us are demanding and prepared to pay extra for clean, unadulterated food.

It's possible that he may even have been trying to put us off purchasing the property for reasons of his own. I don't know.

Anyway, thanks again for all the encouragement and helpful suggestions which are still going to be useful in whichever rural property we purchase. It just won't be be next door to this banana farmer.

Cheers

Nigel Haslam

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

that sucks

but it IS the current state of the banana industry (and most other crops)

it's not that farmers like chemicals, but they hate losing a crop/their land/business/house/social standing/wife need I go on?
if you were in a footrace and your neck was the prize you'd be pouring it on too
survival instinct is strong

plus lots of farmers are only slightly smarter than their livestock :ha:




good luck and be sure too come back and see us
or you could hang out and learn to get a headstart on your farming skills

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I think I may have kicked a hornet's nest here...

Can't wait to hear from some others.

GW I agree that pesticide and petro-chemical fertilised monocropping is the predominant state of current farming but I believe it's doomed to failure for two obvious reasons..

1/ Petro chemical based fertilizers are increasingly expensive

2/ People are becoming more nutrition aware which is evident from the growing sales of organic produce.

The market is changing, consumers are wising up to the potential danger of accumulative exposure to chemicals and additives in foods.

Cheers

Nigel

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

suck because it can't happen
oh can't.. won't..why mince words NEVER EVER EVER

it''s doomed to success for 3

1/ overpopulated planet

2/ uneducated/refuse to self educate apathetic population

3/ the almighty dollar


urine and feces are starting to come on line around the world but google "Milorganite" and read all the fuss
I've written a bunch on urine here, including calculating my yearly N production, but there are NO takers.
No interest, LOTS of disinterest, I can't remember a single positive comment here or ANYWHERE EVER in reference to urine as fertilizer. (from people I've talked toabout it)

All day long people post about "Where to buy fertilizer" and pay XXX the value of the actual chemicals involved, plus shipping.

Pee in a jug ? SACRILEGE!!!!
You had better flush that down thee toilet or you'll go blind !!! :ha:
real religious type of fervor on this subject from both sides

pesticides are worse yet
many of the people who are against them couldn't grow a pole bean if you gave it to them in a 3gal
they have no idea how store produce is grown, yet they eat it, WHILE protesting my suggestion to use THE SAME CHEMICAL ON THE SAME CROP FOR THE SAME PEST
"You're eating it right now" I tell them, and then we play this game where they insist "No I'm not!" and here we go....



rant off

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Unfortunately, there really isn't solid evidence that organic actually IS any better or friendlier to the environment.

Contrary to what most people believe, "organic" does not automatically mean "pesticide-free" or "chemical-free". In fact, under the laws of most states, organic farmers are allowed to use a wide variety of chemical sprays and powders on their crops.

So what does organic mean? It means that these pesticides, if used, must be derived from natural sources, not synthetically manufactured. Also, these pesticides must be applied using equipment that has not been used to apply any synthetic materials for the past three years, and the land being planted cannot have been treated with synthetic materials for that period either.

Most organic farmers (and even some conventional farmers, too) employ mechanical and cultural tools to help control pests. These include insect traps, careful crop selection (there are a growing number of disease-resistant varieties), and biological controls (such as predator insects and beneficial microorganisms).

Further, comparisons between the synthetic pesticides and organic pesticides have some eye opening facts. Unfortunately, these non-chemical methods do not always provide enough protection, and it's necessary to use chemical pesticides. How do organic pesticides compare with conventional pesticides?

A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.

It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.

It should be noted, however, that we don't know for certain which system is more harmful. This is because we do not look at organic pesticides the same way that we look at conventional pesticides. We don't know how long these organic pesticides persist in the environment, or the full extent of their effects.

When you look at lists of pesticides allowed in organic agriculture, you find warnings such as, "Use with caution. The toxicological effects of [organic pesticide X] are largely unknown," or "Its persistence in the soil is unknown." Again, researchers haven't bothered to study the effects of organic pesticides because it is assumed that "natural" chemicals are automatically safe.

Unfortunately, at this point in time it seems based on known facts, that the organic buzz is more placebo than reality, pending further study on the effects of the types of toxins that are used in organic farming, and the need to use such large volumes compared to 'synthetic' pesticides.

Add to that, organic is already very expensive to buy, costing substantially more than it's non organic brothers. Trying to scale that into mass production where organic pesticides need 3+ times as much application as synthetic pesticides will drive prices of organic foods out of the reach of the poor who are already struggling to eat.

That is great to champion the buy organic banner, but it isn't practical to feed the masses of hungry people on this planet. It's a great concept in theory, but it currently only works on a farmers market, low production level.

It's just too expensive to be practical.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Excellent points Imperial. People have this impression that "organic" = good; and synthetic = bad. Some of the most toxic chemicals known to man are organic. Rotenone is used to kill fish in my line of work. You do NOT want to inhale this stuff. Educate yourself and decide which organics and which synthetics are least toxic and pose the least threat to your health and that of the environment. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as the organic product is always better. If you can farm commerically without using any chemicals, organic or otherwise, then my hat is off to you.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

FYI, I use a pesticide that is based on peppermint oil and other components that are safe to use around pets and people.

Kinda cool as the stuff melts bugs on contact.

Peppermint oil is very 'strong'.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

FYI, I once saw what had to have been one of the funniest taste tests EVER.

Basically it was organic vs. regular farmed bananas..........


what they did was to cut one regular grown banana in half, put it on two plates and mark one regular, and one organic.

then gauge the reactions of people taste testing.

So one woman takes a bite of the 'regular' banana, and spends the next 5 minutes complaining about what was wrong with it.

The tries the supposed 'organic' banana, and goes on abuot how much creamier and tastier the organic banana was compared to the 'regular' banana, how it was so noticeably different etc.

And she was eating the exact same banana in both tests.

Absolute comedy gold.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Soil.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

red volcanic


Rotenone bad for fish?
Good for fishING !!!! :ha:

Try putting a net across a stream then pouring some Rotenone 1/2 mile or more upstream. (mix it with water in a bucket first)
Just be sure to get back to the net before it gets swamped with fish and torn loose!!

ORGANICALLY HARVESTED FISH :0519:


Nigel
I don't mean to be bashing your hopes for a better planet mate.
I want a better planet too.

BUT (here it comes) :drum:

"ORGANIC" seems to be a codeword for "I'm about to give you a lecture about how you (and everyone except me) are ruining the planet"


"ORGANIC" people buy insecticidal soap for $4 a liter at Walmart and when you suggest that they make their own for free with dish soap and water they protest because it wouldn't be "ORGANIC"

Any suggestion you make has to go through the "ORGANIC" filter where it's automatically BAD unless you can prove it's "ORGANIC".
Which of course is like having a debate with a 3yo about how many decimal places should be included when writing PI.

"When a man won't agree that 2+2=4, then there is no point debating him because the facts don't matter."

I will now cease to be off topic. :goteam:


How is the outlook on the subtropical coffee people?

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Nowhere in this thread has stewardship of the soil been mentioned as a benefit of growing organic crops.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I have found this thread very interesting and thanks to everyone for their input.

I decided only to use glyphosate salt on my farm, but I use it only once when planting in a new area. It is very difficult to clear a slope with 10'-15' tall grass and the glyphosate is simply to efficient at this task. I do not use any pesticides or synthetic fertilizers. I give my plants two options, make due or die. I plant several different varieties to see which copes the best, if none are successful I move on to a different plant.

I see bananas with large bunches growing in the wild everday without any human intervention. In Puerto Rico the weevil is by far the most devastating pest and I find weevils in areas that have never been planted before. We also have just about every known leaf disease throughout the island.

This is what has led me to grow ARH. I regularly use weevil infested planting material because it will get weevils at some point anyway. Weevils and leaf diseases do affect fruit filling, but with ARH the fruit will almost always be well above Grade A standards. My best guess is that every bunch photo I've ever posted was grown with weevils and BLS.

I don't know if my soil would even be considered soil, but it works for me and it continually improves.
I break it into smaller pieces with a 16 lb sledge and then add grass clippings and wood chips

[IMG][/IMG]



I have never tried to market my Horns as "Organic". and feel I don't need the crutch.

This has worked successfully for 15 years, but this is by no means a statement saying it will be successful tomorrow.

I don't want to jinx myself.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Best of LUCK Nigel, in whichever direction you choose.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I pee in my garden from time to time. Nothing wrong with it.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I hate to see the free Nitrogen being wasted and I pee anywhere on my farm, but would never want a tanker load of the stuff.
My only concern has been with the salt content, but in moderation I think it's great

What is in urine?

Gee Whiz: Human Urine Is Shown to Be an Effective Agricultural Fertilizer: Scientific American

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Has anyone got a list of affordable natural l fertilisers ?

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Wow, thanks again everyone.. This is fantastic.. I'm learning so much.

I've long wondered about the safety and efficacy of using poo, oops 'biosoil' and, not being squeamish, agree wholeheartedly with G.W. that we should çlose the loop and stop flushing good fertilizer down the drain with gallons of highly purified, albeit chlorinated and fluoridated, water.

Imperial Exotics you have nailed a universal truth there.. just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good for you.. who would use raw uranium or plutonium to combat their weeds?

Lacking even the most basic chemistry, I find myself at a loss and rather put off by anything that has a distinctly chemical name.

Who would willingly add Sodium Chloride to their food but 'Salt' is fine.

Lots of westerners are put off by the idea of Monosodium Glutamate in Chinese cooking but the English translation of the chinese word for MSG is "Tasty".

I wonder if there isn't a reliable ie. not supported by Monsanto, online resource to demystify the various pesticidal substances, so we can make informed decisions on what to use?

Any ideas?

Nigel Haslam

PS. My recent research is pointing at Bamboo as a good potential crop for this region of Australia. It's becoming fashionable as a building material and it's strength and sustainability factors are very high. It sequesters 7 times the carbon as a rainforest tree.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Here's what I've just started experimenting with..

A Better Way to Fertilize Your Garden: Homemade Organic Fertilizer - Organic Gardening - MOTHER EARTH NEWS

I used coprameal in place of seedmeal because I figured coconut trees are very hardy and therefore the plantations wouldn't be hit with so much pesticide.

It works out pretty cheap.. almost all of the 25 KG bags (just over 50 lbs), cost about $25 bucks but, apart from the copra meal, one only uses a tiny fraction of the other ingredients. The most expensive ingredient is kelp meal.. but I can't remember of the top of my head how much it costs.

I've only just applied this to my garden so I've yet to see the results.

Cheers

Nigel

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Sometimes my posts read like I'm angry, but I'd like you folks to superimpose a sarcastic comedian's tone, if you would be so kind.

I left out the part about the insecticidal soap lady in Walmart who, after being told she could make it with bath soap and water, asked, I kid you not...:drum: "Would it be ORGANIC?"

I dang near had a stroke right there.
Bath soap you know.





can you be more specific than demistify ?
there is several weeks worth of reading available on most things including fate in soil/water/animals


municipal leaf waste has been researched as a large scale soil amendment for farmers
it was found to have elevated levels of heavy metals, but nothing drastic
I added 10 tonnes of yard leaf waste last year

there are some good N fixing plants like sunshine hemp, that's a good safe way to go

tree services sometimes haul their cuttings to the dump and pay to dispose
they are happy to find someone who lets them dump for free
I added 10 cubic yards of ground oak and pine last year

road crews often clean/enlarge/deepen roadside ditches
these ditches sometimes collect sediment, depending in the type of runoff the material removed can be quite rich (and quite free)

cabinetry or door manufacturers produce very fine millings of natural wood of MDFB
a local one uses urea formaldehyde as the glue in their wood so all the dust I get from there has 2%N SUUUUUUPER slow release :woohoonaner:
this stuff is more economical than regular sawdust because it's fine as flour and so has a similar density
around 40kg per bag and a pickup will fit 500kg pretty well
I was recently invited to have all I wanted but settled for hauling home around 3 tonnes LOL

PR Giants IIRC the Cl content of urine is 2%
muriate of potash is around 40%
you be lucky to get a tanker full


I just applied 25 gallons of 2 month old yesterday in expectation of 5 inches of rain this week. One gallon per plant at the base of the pstem, and water it in with a gallon or so from the hose because the ammonia content is high.

I have 8 flowers this year and I only started growing bananas July of last year.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I guess I'd like a primer on the differences between synthetic chemicals used in agriculture and the natural ie. those considered as organic.

Not a deep biological analysis but an overview for the layman, covering the different pesticides, their uses, applications, how they achieve their goal and any associated caveats, dangers etc. Similar to Imperial Exotics illuminating writings above but more comprehensive.

Also I'm interested in the practical issues with bio waste re-use, how to deal with the pathogens and render it useful and safe for fertilizing edible crops.

Stuff like this:-

Aussie scientist calls for human urine fertiliser - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I understand the point you are trying to make GW. In order use urine on a crop that is not salt tolerant, you first need a soil that drains well and my soil does not, so in my case a tanker load would be disastrous. In moderation it will work fine.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

You could save the cost of a tanker load and just drink lots and lots of beer. At least then you'll get double the value for your money.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

wait a sec..you might be onto something here,

Nuke the weeds.

I'm sensing great entertainment value here...........................

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

And then...


To be certified as biodynamic, a farm must first be certified organic.

When a farm is organically certified, it is inspected and evaluated by a third-party certifying agent on how well it meets organic standards. Basically, the farm must practice organic methods for at least three years. This includes objectives like choosing only all-natural (nonsynthetic) fertilizers and pesticides, using sustainable processes such as crop rotation and composting, and feeding livestock 100-percent organic feed, as well as treating animals humanely (no hormones or antibiotics).

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I think you are hoping for something that is impossible. Each chemical, organic or not, has its own properties. To think the organic ones are fundamentally different in some uniform way, other than not being synthesized by humans, is, unfortunately, not true. You need to research the specific issues/chemicals/applications you are interested in. Organic does not equal safe. Botulinum toxin is 100% organic, and one of the most potent neurotoxins known to man.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Organic does exclude some nasty bits like GMO's, synthetic ferts and pesticides. And speaking about BT...

New Study: Genetically Engineered Crops Drive up Pesticide Use | Pesticide Action Network

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

You know I'm not opposed to organic. All the ferts and pesticides I've been using lately are organic, but I think we need to be realistic and thoughtful about the relative costs and benefits of "organic" versus not. The mantra "organic is good, synthetic is not" is far too oversimplistic to really be a useful way of addressing pressing issues of adequate food production for our overpopulated planet. For example, do you think it is better for the planet to harvest fish to grind up into "fish fertilizer" to grow plants, or should we instead eat the fish and use synthetic ferts to grow plants? Fertilizing plants with ground up animals is not sustainable, given the world's population.

And do you think a website for the "Pesticide Action Network" might be a wee bit biased?

More and more, we are will need to make hard choices that will force us to think carefully, rather than subscribing to simplistic philosophies, like "organic is good, man-made is bad."

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Facts are fact regardless where the info comes from. Don't kill the messenger!

Nature has grown food for ever without man's intervention. The only reason for man to intervene in money.

This propaganda about GM feeding the over populated starving world is total nonsense. We could feed the world organically but the huge multi national corporations would go under in the process. This has nothing to do with what's right for the planet or it's population.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

I like your posts Mitchel so don't take this too personally.





This propaganda about nature spontaneously producing food to feed large cities is total nonsense.
Nature rolls the dice. So YES nature created wheat. Selective breeding has produced our current cornucopia.

Have you ever seen a spontaneously germinated field of wheat?
Soy?
Corn?
Alfalfa?

Let's take that last one alfalfa.
Alfalfa in legume and therefore participates in symbiosis with N fixing bacterial. YAY we saved the world!!

NO!
Alfalfa removes K at a rate of 60lb/ton with 5-10 tonnes produced per acre.

SO we take our 100 acre field and let's say we have a decent yeild of 5 tonnes per acre.

100x5x60=30000 or 15 tonnes of K

Mitchel I would like you to suggest where and how to get 30,000lbs of potassium in an organic manner, in extremely rural areas.
It also needs to start availability within the first year, second at latest.
The field will only be tilled every three years for replanting so heavy topdressing is unacceptable in the off years.


Most of the time when you throw the ball to the organo-mantra folks they decide not to play.
Let's see if Mitchel will take a swing at this one.
I really do need an answer to this problem so others please chime in.

I see no reason NOT to get a second use from your beer, or all the crazy amount of protein we eat.
We did pay for it didin't we?

Fire is ORGANIC LOL

I think you hit the truth with the "crutch" comment.
Organic is largely a marketing ploy aimed at uneducated consumers.

What ignorant consumers?
Well how about the box of cotton candy with " TRANS FAT FREE !! " plastered on it?
who,what,why the heck would/should there be shortening in cotton candy?
trans fat bad ..... trans fat FREE is good..... cotton candy is trans fat free.....so......cotton candy is good

there is clearly a lack of critical thinking skills being taught in our schools
SON OF A B I just realized I continue to be off topic.........

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

GW, did you see the post that PR posted about the roadside bananas growing nice bunches without any human intervention? That's what I'm talking about. The planet has been making food without scientists and their chemical cocktails for ever.

Obviously to grow huge fields of food we have to do it, that's not my point. My point is that we can grow enough food organically or conventionally to feed the worlds population without using GMO's. We do not need to play god in this way. Hybridizing and natural selection are one thing, gene splicing in order to sell massive amounts of roundup etc is another.

Re: Advice sought for a novice buying a banana farm?
 

Being someone who writes "facts" -- that is publishing peer-reviewed scientific papers like the one cited -- I can tell you that selective reporting of these papers is certainly biased, and almost the same as lying.

"Nature" (are we not part of nature?) has always grown food -- and the amount of food grown by nature without human intervention could never support the current human population. For thousands of years we have "artificially" selected for high-yielding versions of plants and animals, we have created productive hybrids (the edible bananas), etc. I'm not talking about GM, I'm talking about old fashioned plant breeding and artificial selection, which humans have done for 10,000 years, at a minimum. Using "organic" methods to grow even "heirloom" varieties is nothing like "nature feeding the world". It is humans modifying the environment and the genetic makeup (via selection of favored genotypes) of plants and animals to increase food production. How many people do you think you can feed with the "natural" seeded version of Musa acuminata grown in the wild with no human intervention versus the artificially selected parthenocarpic Cavendish, Mona Lisa, Nino, Gros Michelle versions of it, carefully fertilized, irrigated, etc.?