JoeReal

I would strongly recommend that you get some seeds of Flying Dragon. Germinate and grow them, then graft unto them. They make excellent potted citrus plants producing high quality fruits of whatever you graft unto them.

Sometimes Millet, Laaz, or MrTexas would give away seeds for just postage. So watch out for those. I can get Flying Dragon rootstocks for $1 each from TreeSource citrus nursery, and I graft unto them.

JoeReal

Well, I simply give away scionwood if you get them from my yard. But I don't sell scionwood, but I do trade with them. I have more than 90 kinds of cituses, but only a third of them have nice scionwood that I can trade. You can PM me if interested and as long as it is legal for you to receive citrus scionwood. It is a federal offense to send citrus scionwood to citrus producing state like California, Texas, Florida, Arizona, Louisiana, etc. So check your state regulations about importing citrus scionwood.

mskitty38583

joe do you have a pic?

__________________
WELCOME TO THE GATOR NATION

JoeReal

Pic of what? But if you meant citruses, here's my 50-n-1 citruses at that time (it is now 70-n-1 and will be 75-n-1 soon), here's a series of pics. Notice that I have bananas sheltered under the citrus tree:

Citrus Growers Forum :: View topic - Fruits from 50-in-1 tree

JoeReal

And here's the story of how the soon to be 75-n-1 citrus tree started out to be. I started working on it in 2000 (no pics), and by 2001 it has 8 cultivars. Today it has 70, after the spring season it would have 5 to 10 additional cultivars.

Epson PhotoCenter - Visit Albums - Album Index

mskitty38583

wow! that is awesome! ok one question...to graft over does that mean, where you grafted one type, you take the same section( where it was grafted before) cut out that graft and graft it with something else? that is the koolest thing. i knew that a tree could be grafted but that many times...wow. do you graft on different sections of the tree? one branch for apples, another for oranges, one for limes? that is so wild. i have never grafted a tree. but i have read a little on doing it. the pics are great thank you for posting them so i could see your lovely tree. does the tree get 'confused' as to what time of year to produce the different types of fruit? it may be a dumb question, but one that just ran through my mind.

__________________
WELCOME TO THE GATOR NATION

chong

You cannot graft apple varieties on citrus trees, or vice-versa. You can graft different varieties of apple ont one apple tree, e.g., golden delicious, red delicious, MacIntosh, Roma, Fuji, Gala, etc., on the same apple tree. You can graft varieties of citrus, e.g., mandarins, pummelos, limes, quomquats, tangerines, lemons, etc., as many varieties as the tree can hold, on any one of these citrus trees. Bottom line is they have to be the same species of plants.

JoeReal

I really wish I could do what you thought! It might be possible one day, but not perhaps soon. Currently, it is only possible to graft different cultivars into the same species (like many different apples unto one tree: Granny Smith, Red Delicious, Fuji, etc, together), then a little bit harder is grafting different species of the same genus (Peaches, Nectrines, apricots, European plums, Japanese plums, Almonds, Pluots, Apriums) into one tree, and harder still would be to graft different species of different genus (Apples, Pears, Quinces, Hawthorns together in one tree) into one tree but would require special interstem (another cultivar that serves as a bridge) trick. All the citruses that I have grafted belong to the same family, with perhaps three genus grafted together in one tree.

It is still impossible (or haven't seen one do it yet) to graft apples and peaches together nor citruses with apples. So I wish I could do this, and it would be a big bragging right. The rest that I have done has already been performed by other people. It is never stupid to ask or assume these basic questions, as sometimes we can get creative and find ways to answer or do them, it is just a matter of time.

I do have several quinces, asian pears, european pears, apples grafted together in one tree. Perhaps 2 dozen kinds of cherries in one tree, 48 kinds of plums in one tree, about 26 kinds of apricots in one tree, countless (lost track of how many) apples or pears in one tree, 43 kinds of persimmons in one tree (yes, there are many types of persimmons), various stone fruits together in one tree. I have many other multi-grafted specialty trees. I treat grafting like pruning, and you can see that I use grafting to balance my trees.

As for my citrus, they don't get confused on what to produce and when. They are still controlled by the weather or climate. Only the quality of fruits are affected depending on interaction, but the fruit's basic taste and shape remains the same as their original, never a hybrid or combo just due to grafting. For example, my oranges would remain sweet as ever even if it is kissing with lemon flowers on the other branches of the same tree, and never the oranges tasting like lemons or vice versa.

To graft over could mean many things depending on context. If it is to change a cultivar, like in my case, I snip off the cultivar that I don't like and graft unto the same branch a new one that I'd like to try and evaluate. A lot cheaper to try this way. I would only lose a year's worth of production on that particular branch. Another context of grafting over is topworking where you change the cultivars of all the branches of your tree either to one or more new cultivars. I only do a few per season.

Richard

well, similar species.

Consider the common dwarfing rootstock for citrus, Poncirus trifoliate is not even in the same Genus as mandarins, Citrus reticulate.

__________________
Back in business at plantsthatproduce.com

mskitty38583

thank you for the info! i find it very interesting that all kinds of citrus can be grafted like that. you guys are great. thanks again.

__________________
WELCOME TO THE GATOR NATION

JoeReal

By the very nature of citrus which has the tendency to be nucellar, it created a lot of naming confusion that we can still see today.

For example, grapefruits are not really a separate species but in fact is a hybrid between sweet orange and Pummelo.

And Sweet orange is not a distinct species, in fact they are a hybrid in nature between mandarin and pummelo. Sour orange is also another natural hybridization product between mandarin and pummelo.

And Lemons, you bet, these are not a pure group either, but a hybrid between sour orange and a citron.

The only reason why lemons beget lemons or that Sweet oranges beget sweet oranges even via seedling propagation because they are nucellar and are true to type. This has confused a whole lot of our early taxonomic forefathers and assigned these various species name.

But with today's genetic testing, we know where most modern citrus cultivars of today, there are only 4 original parent groups: Pummelos, mandarins, citrons and C. micrantha. Another distinct genus that can be hybridized with citruses are the Fortunella or kumquat groups. Still another genus that are recently discovered and can also hybridized are the Microcitrus from Australia. And of course we still have the Poncirus genus and other wild relatives which depending on literature are sometimes grouped under the genus citrus also.

JoeReal

And you will be amazed that the same naming chaos are also found with bananas. Many species that hybridizes and can propagate asexually or apomictically (incuding nucellary) in nature or in the wild, have tricked earlier researchers giving scientific names to them. Today, genetic analysis can clear up many naming confusion and resolves also if cultivars are distinct.

You will also be surprised that bananas and citruses can be grown in the same climate, often have similar requirements and care. So if you grow bananas, by all means, try to grow citrus and vice versa.

JoeReal

While here in Davis, Northern California, I'm trying to grow Apples and Bananas together, and have good results so far.

bencelest

That's why when I treat my bananas almost the same way as my citrus except the potassium contents. But growing them they are the same.

__________________
Banana Nut

Richard

While you're making progress with cold-hardy bananas and apples, We're doing an asymetrical take on that: sub-tropical bananas with subtropic-hardy apples like Pettingill and Anna.

__________________
Back in business at plantsthatproduce.com

Richard

I've noticed that the general public thinks we can just take any life-form, submit it to genetic analysis and determine what species it is. Readers should be warned that at present this is not true: there is no "genetic bar-coding".

Example: if we have a genetic sample that is known to be from citrus, we can determine what citrus species it is derived from, and maybe tell you if it is lemon or grapefruit. We cannot tell you what cultivated variety it is; i.e., distinguish Washington Navel from Robertson Navel.

Worse yet, if we have a genetic sample which we know is from citrus but we give it to a team of experts and don't tell them what it is from (blind study), then many of them will probably decide it is a plant but beyond that there will be a lot of disagreement.

__________________
Back in business at plantsthatproduce.com

JoeReal

richard, have you really read the genetic markers that has been for some citrus cultivars? There are genetic samples that delineate some characteristics of a particular sport mutation. The work can be simplified if you know where to look. Many genetic databases are not the same, thus there is still a lot of work to be done.

But you are taking this out of context, for what reason? But let me clarify. What I meant was, if somebody claims that they developed a new cultivar, it can be checked if it is indeed a new cultivar via genetic analysis, and these are on targeted markers.

JoeReal

Again, this is headed to out of context interpretation. I am not doing any breeding work to achieve such feat. Just a few use of trial and success in the yard, knowing microclimate in the yard and a little bit of Physics and lazy Engineering tricks.

JoeReal

You got it down to science Benny!

JoeReal

Contrary to what you think you know, it is very easy to prove disprove if a particular sample is from a certain cultivar. It is now quite easy to determine how the Washington Navel differs from Robertson Navel. This is because we can compare it with a known sample.

But to place this in a good context, it is hard to know what cultivar a given sample is if you don't have any clue. You would need to build a standard database that is able to delineate all the existing citrus germpasm in order to determine and it could use several effective genetic markers as a basis, and you may not need to decode the entire DNA or RNA or mitochondrial DNA. It hasn't been done yet, and such it is not instantaneous comparison.

But if a sample is to be compared with a specific cultivar like for example the Parent Washington Navel and the Robertson Navel, you analyze all three and compare where the sample is very close to, and mind you, citruses are true to type and it is relatively easy to spot the variations with various sports mutation of the same cultivar.