Chamaedorea microspadix

palmtree · 04-26-2010, 07:52 PM

Anyone have sucess with these in colder zones? Or for anyone who has grown these, are they fast growing (as far as chamaedoreas go) or are they very slow. I bought one and I want to try it in the ground here in my zone 7 with protection. I hear they can handle temps down to 20F and was wondering if they were worth a shot. I will protect it the same way my pindo was protected and the lowest temp it saw with the protection was 25F but it went below freezing often and rarely went above 50 during the worst of winter (some days it didnt even get to 50 in the protection because the winter days this year were much colder than typical).

Any knowledge at all of this plant would be really helpful! I greatly appreciate any help!!

Wish me luck!!!

palmtree · 04-27-2010, 08:08 PM

Im surprised no one has tried this palm. I guess Im just going to have to risk it to find out how tolerant it is. Ill tell you how it goes, but that wont be for another year!

chumleyrobert · 04-27-2010, 10:49 PM

No worries on this one. I've seen them take into the teens. They do quite nice under oak canopys or most any where except full sun in the open. They seed every year and harvest is usually any time after Jan/Feb. The seed thrown on the ground or put into flats take a few months to sprout. They make nice clumps and spread every year. It's a regular "weed" here on my 13 acre estate. Another good one is Arenga Englerii and Chamaedorea Stolenifera. Robert Chumley

Jack Daw · 04-28-2010, 01:53 AM

I, on the other hand, have only bad experience with Chamaedoras. They can withstand low temps for shorter periods of time, but you'd have to use one hell of a protection to keep it alive during 2 months of extreme cold and winter. Another matter: they tend to dislike lots and lots of water during cold and that was agains my climate...

palmtree · 04-28-2010, 06:31 AM

Thanks a lot for your info! ITs good to know the pros and cons of this palm. I think the duration of the cold is very important with this so it will need protection. I also cant imagine it liking snow loads too well. Im going to give it really good drainage because I also have a wet climate (about 3 to 4 inches of rain spread pretty evenly through the year.
Thanks again!

Dean W. · 03-11-2011, 09:43 PM

Did you ever try them, Alex?

saltydad · 03-12-2011, 03:21 PM

I would also love an update.

TommyMacLuckie · 03-13-2011, 09:10 AM

I had one that was over 6 feet tall. I planted it under my big live oak thinking that it would be enough protection and that it wouldn't get below 26 like it had for quite a few winters. Then it got down to 18 last January. I covered it up. Didn't matter. They don't like to get below 26F actually.

Glad I left it in a container and pulled it in because this January it got down to 22.

C. radicalis can take lower temps, down to 20F (I still covered them up). But a lot of Chams are mid-20s. I gave up having them planted in the ground, except for the radicalis, and always bring them in when it gets below 28F.

Darkman · 03-14-2011, 09:29 PM

What is an easy way to tell microspadix from radicalis? I have several plantings and one is a tree form. It is about six feet tall. The others are short. One of them is forming a clump with three new shoots coming up. Mine have shrugged off 19 degrees in 2010 and 24 degrees in 2011 with no or little damage.

Dean W. · 03-15-2011, 09:29 PM

I've read there are two forms of radicalis. One is a taller the other short and bushy.

palmtree · 03-15-2011, 11:50 PM

Hi! I did give them a try, but it rotted before June because it was a small seedling and I guess the clay soil here was too much for it. I think Im going to try radicalis this summer if I can get one thats a nicer size.
Darkman, the main difference between radicalis and microspadix is microspadix has lighter green and less glossy fronds than radicalis. To me microspadix looks more like a parlor palm (C. elegans).

I'll definitely tell you if I try radicalis this spring and will post pics if I do!

TommyMacLuckie · 03-16-2011, 06:54 PM

Pindo's don't need protection unless it gets into the low teens, specifically 15 to 12 degrees F for 4 hours or more. They are fine if it's in the 20s without protection for extended periods (unless, from what I've read based on research, it's a genuine Butia capitata - if it's a hybrid they're fine).

C. microspadix is not reliable below 26F for 4 hours or more, like water pipes, WITHOUT DAMAGE and possible death. Upper 20s probably OK but below 26 you had better protect it with a heat source or at least cover it.

And they do not like snow. Where they are native to they don't get snow but they do get cold - but not for long.

palmtree · 03-16-2011, 11:08 PM

I've seen reports of C. Microspadix handling temperatures down to the mid teens with little or no damage, however the duration of that kind of cold is important too. Im sure that they cant handle much too much snow load and I would never keep them unprotected in anything other then the lightest dusting of snow (the worst snow is when temperatures arent too much below freezing because then the snow will be wet and heavy and it might be included with lots of freezing rain or sleet to make things worse!

Pindo palms (especially in pots) have been extremely tender for me (I usually lose them at 20F). The one in my protection has not seen below the low 20s and it hasnt been damaged. I havent risked mine below 20F yet, but maybe I will when its a bit older.

TommyMacLuckie · 03-17-2011, 10:06 AM

Well, my microspadix got severely damaged at 22F and then almost killed outright at 18F and then 21F, all in January of '010, three mornings in a row. And it was covered up for the 18F. I didn't know it was going to get down to 22F for some reason. Too late, damage was done. It looked terrible. With a cover on it it still got damaged. I had to dig it up. It was over 6 feet tall, now it's almost 3 feet at best.

palmtree · 03-20-2011, 09:50 PM

It sounds like C. Microspadix is getting some mixed reviews. I just bought another one off the internet and hopefully it will be a larger size than my last one. I plan on keeping it in a pot for at the very least, this summer. Im not sure I will ever have the courage to put it in the ground, but maybe one day in the future, I'll be living some place a bit warmer and will have the chance to plant it in my yard (by then it would be a really nice size!). I'll post some pics of it when it comes (suppose to be around the first few days of April).

saltydad · 03-20-2011, 10:04 PM

My experience with leaving pindo palms outside for the winter was not good. Actually, I tried it with a B. capitata and a B. eriospatha. Both died with protection. Now I plant my pindo in the garden, but dig it up and pot it for inside for the winter each year..

nannerfunboi · 03-20-2011, 10:25 PM

saltydad.ive been kicking idea of trying palms.. utah here..
theres a guy over on daves garden..in kansas..he is a big time
palm grower.. and has great sucess..
i was thinking same as u.. plant out in garden..then dig up in fall
and overwinter inside.. im just not sure how well palms do getting
dug up???
was thinking same with bird of paradise..
were lucky with bananas..they do ok planting out then transplanting..
good luck to ya!!!

saltydad · 03-20-2011, 10:31 PM

I also do this with the European Fan Palm, C. humilis var cerifera. They like it; I'm the one with a sore back. These suckers are getting big! The palms I do leave out 12 months a year are the needle palms, R. hystrix, and the windmill palms, T. fortunei. They have been doing OK. Actually I stopped mulching and wrapping them 2 years ago, and while they show some cold damage, they're still beautiful to me here in my Maryland backyard.

palmtree · 03-20-2011, 11:07 PM

Saltydad, I definitely think I will try that with one of my pindos! It sounds like a good idea. Palms arent crazy about being moved, but they will be fine as long as you dont damage the roots. I dont think I would risk doing this with my Chamaedora because they grow slowly so any damage would take a long time to fix and they do well in pots anyway.

Darkman · 03-21-2011, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palmtree

Darkman, the main difference between radicalis and microspadix is microspadix has lighter green and less glossy fronds than radicalis. To me microspadix looks more like a parlor palm (C. elegans).

I'll definitely tell you if I try radicalis this spring and will post pics if I do!

Can you say what this is? Lower right corner NOT CURRENT PIC

and this? Right side pic. Sorry not all of palm. NOT CURRENT PIC

04-26-2010, 07:52 PM	#1 (permalink)
palmtree palmtree 's Photo Gallery Location: New York City Find me on the map! Zone: 7b Name: Alex C Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,016 BananaBucks : 130,674 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,492 Times Was Thanked 1,428 Times in 644 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 103 Times	Chamaedorea microspadix Anyone have sucess with these in colder zones? Or for anyone who has grown these, are they fast growing (as far as chamaedoreas go) or are they very slow. I bought one and I want to try it in the ground here in my zone 7 with protection. I hear they can handle temps down to 20F and was wondering if they were worth a shot. I will protect it the same way my pindo was protected and the lowest temp it saw with the protection was 25F but it went below freezing often and rarely went above 50 during the worst of winter (some days it didnt even get to 50 in the protection because the winter days this year were much colder than typical). Any knowledge at all of this plant would be really helpful! I greatly appreciate any help!! Wish me luck!!! __________________ Location: New York City, zone 7b

04-27-2010, 08:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
palmtree palmtree 's Photo Gallery Location: New York City Find me on the map! Zone: 7b Name: Alex C Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,016 BananaBucks : 130,674 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,492 Times Was Thanked 1,428 Times in 644 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 103 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix Im surprised no one has tried this palm. I guess Im just going to have to risk it to find out how tolerant it is. Ill tell you how it goes, but that wont be for another year! __________________ Location: New York City, zone 7b

04-27-2010, 10:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
chumleyrobert Location: Plant City, Florida Zone: 9-B Name: Robert Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 86 BananaBucks : 96,299 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 0 Times Was Thanked 43 Times in 25 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix No worries on this one. I've seen them take into the teens. They do quite nice under oak canopys or most any where except full sun in the open. They seed every year and harvest is usually any time after Jan/Feb. The seed thrown on the ground or put into flats take a few months to sprout. They make nice clumps and spread every year. It's a regular "weed" here on my 13 acre estate. Another good one is Arenga Englerii and Chamaedorea Stolenifera. Robert Chumley

04-28-2010, 01:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jack Daw I think with my banana ;) Jack Daw's Photo Gallery Location: BA, SK, CEU Find me on the map! Zone: Dfa (Köppen-geiger) <-> 7b/8a? (USDA) Name: Jack Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 3,525 BananaBucks : 248,336 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,771 Times Was Thanked 2,461 Times in 1,355 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 383 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix I, on the other hand, have only bad experience with Chamaedoras. They can withstand low temps for shorter periods of time, but you'd have to use one hell of a protection to keep it alive during 2 months of extreme cold and winter. Another matter: they tend to dislike lots and lots of water during cold and that was agains my climate... __________________ Thnx to Marcel, Ante, Dr. Chiranjit Parmar and *Francesco* for the plants I've received. Zeitgeist - Corporatocracy 101 (~2hrs) Zeitgeist - Moving Forward (~2.5hrs)

04-28-2010, 06:31 AM	#5 (permalink)
palmtree palmtree 's Photo Gallery Location: New York City Find me on the map! Zone: 7b Name: Alex C Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,016 BananaBucks : 130,674 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,492 Times Was Thanked 1,428 Times in 644 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 103 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix Thanks a lot for your info! ITs good to know the pros and cons of this palm. I think the duration of the cold is very important with this so it will need protection. I also cant imagine it liking snow loads too well. Im going to give it really good drainage because I also have a wet climate (about 3 to 4 inches of rain spread pretty evenly through the year. Thanks again! __________________ Location: New York City, zone 7b

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03-11-2011, 09:43 PM	#6 (permalink)
Dean W. Dean W.'s Photo Gallery Location: Cedar Park, TX Zone: 8b Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,279 BananaBucks : 308,058 Feedback: 13 / 100% Said "Thanks" 6,325 Times Was Thanked 2,130 Times in 972 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 300 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix Did you ever try them, Alex? __________________

03-12-2011, 03:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
saltydad saltydad's Photo Gallery Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA Find me on the map! Zone: 7a Name: Howard Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,552 BananaBucks : 293,570 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 14,712 Times Was Thanked 4,662 Times in 1,778 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 824 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix I would also love an update. __________________ Men In Nursing- "A Few Good Men" "Gardening is the purest of human pleasures." - Francis Bacon "If by a liberal, they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind; someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions; someone who cares about the welfare of the people, their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties; someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicion that grips us; that is what they meant by a liberal, I am proud to be a liberal." John F. Kennedy, September, 1960 http://flickr.com/photos/saltydad/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/saltydad http://s751.photobucket.com/albums/xx151/saltydad/

03-13-2011, 09:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
TommyMacLuckie Howboutcha! TommyMacLuckie's Photo Gallery Location: Mandeville, Louisiana Find me on the map! Zone: 8B Name: Tommy Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 427 BananaBucks : 248,811 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 7 Times Was Thanked 375 Times in 202 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix I had one that was over 6 feet tall. I planted it under my big live oak thinking that it would be enough protection and that it wouldn't get below 26 like it had for quite a few winters. Then it got down to 18 last January. I covered it up. Didn't matter. They don't like to get below 26F actually. Glad I left it in a container and pulled it in because this January it got down to 22. C. radicalis can take lower temps, down to 20F (I still covered them up). But a lot of Chams are mid-20s. I gave up having them planted in the ground, except for the radicalis, and always bring them in when it gets below 28F.

03-14-2011, 09:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
Darkman Dirt Master Darkman's Photo Gallery Location: Pensacola, FL South of I-10 Find me on the map! Zone: 8b/9a Name: Darkman Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,249 BananaBucks : 257,358 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 9,263 Times Was Thanked 1,582 Times in 702 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 243 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix What is an easy way to tell microspadix from radicalis? I have several plantings and one is a tree form. It is about six feet tall. The others are short. One of them is forming a clump with three new shoots coming up. Mine have shrugged off 19 degrees in 2010 and 24 degrees in 2011 with no or little damage. __________________ Darkman in Pensacola AS ALWAYS IMHO AND YOUR MILEAGE MAY DIFFER!!!!!!!! Life - Some assembly required, As is no warranty, Batteries not included, Instructions shipped separately and are frequently wrong! Kentucky Bourbon - It may not solve the problem but it helps to make it tolerable! Statistics - Data that analyst twist to support the insane opinions of those that pay them.

03-15-2011, 09:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
Dean W. Dean W.'s Photo Gallery Location: Cedar Park, TX Zone: 8b Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,279 BananaBucks : 308,058 Feedback: 13 / 100% Said "Thanks" 6,325 Times Was Thanked 2,130 Times in 972 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 300 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix I've read there are two forms of radicalis. One is a taller the other short and bushy. __________________

03-15-2011, 11:50 PM	#11 (permalink)
palmtree palmtree 's Photo Gallery Location: New York City Find me on the map! Zone: 7b Name: Alex C Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,016 BananaBucks : 130,674 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,492 Times Was Thanked 1,428 Times in 644 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 103 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix Hi! I did give them a try, but it rotted before June because it was a small seedling and I guess the clay soil here was too much for it. I think Im going to try radicalis this summer if I can get one thats a nicer size. Darkman, the main difference between radicalis and microspadix is microspadix has lighter green and less glossy fronds than radicalis. To me microspadix looks more like a parlor palm (C. elegans). I'll definitely tell you if I try radicalis this spring and will post pics if I do! __________________ Location: New York City, zone 7b

03-16-2011, 06:54 PM	#12 (permalink)
TommyMacLuckie Howboutcha! TommyMacLuckie's Photo Gallery Location: Mandeville, Louisiana Find me on the map! Zone: 8B Name: Tommy Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 427 BananaBucks : 248,811 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 7 Times Was Thanked 375 Times in 202 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix Pindo's don't need protection unless it gets into the low teens, specifically 15 to 12 degrees F for 4 hours or more. They are fine if it's in the 20s without protection for extended periods (unless, from what I've read based on research, it's a genuine Butia capitata - if it's a hybrid they're fine). C. microspadix is not reliable below 26F for 4 hours or more, like water pipes, WITHOUT DAMAGE and possible death. Upper 20s probably OK but below 26 you had better protect it with a heat source or at least cover it. And they do not like snow. Where they are native to they don't get snow but they do get cold - but not for long.

03-16-2011, 11:08 PM	#13 (permalink)
palmtree palmtree 's Photo Gallery Location: New York City Find me on the map! Zone: 7b Name: Alex C Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,016 BananaBucks : 130,674 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,492 Times Was Thanked 1,428 Times in 644 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 103 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix I've seen reports of C. Microspadix handling temperatures down to the mid teens with little or no damage, however the duration of that kind of cold is important too. Im sure that they cant handle much too much snow load and I would never keep them unprotected in anything other then the lightest dusting of snow (the worst snow is when temperatures arent too much below freezing because then the snow will be wet and heavy and it might be included with lots of freezing rain or sleet to make things worse! Pindo palms (especially in pots) have been extremely tender for me (I usually lose them at 20F). The one in my protection has not seen below the low 20s and it hasnt been damaged. I havent risked mine below 20F yet, but maybe I will when its a bit older. __________________ Location: New York City, zone 7b

03-17-2011, 10:06 AM	#14 (permalink)
TommyMacLuckie Howboutcha! TommyMacLuckie's Photo Gallery Location: Mandeville, Louisiana Find me on the map! Zone: 8B Name: Tommy Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 427 BananaBucks : 248,811 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 7 Times Was Thanked 375 Times in 202 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix Well, my microspadix got severely damaged at 22F and then almost killed outright at 18F and then 21F, all in January of '010, three mornings in a row. And it was covered up for the 18F. I didn't know it was going to get down to 22F for some reason. Too late, damage was done. It looked terrible. With a cover on it it still got damaged. I had to dig it up. It was over 6 feet tall, now it's almost 3 feet at best.

03-20-2011, 09:50 PM	#15 (permalink)
palmtree palmtree 's Photo Gallery Location: New York City Find me on the map! Zone: 7b Name: Alex C Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,016 BananaBucks : 130,674 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,492 Times Was Thanked 1,428 Times in 644 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 103 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix It sounds like C. Microspadix is getting some mixed reviews. I just bought another one off the internet and hopefully it will be a larger size than my last one. I plan on keeping it in a pot for at the very least, this summer. Im not sure I will ever have the courage to put it in the ground, but maybe one day in the future, I'll be living some place a bit warmer and will have the chance to plant it in my yard (by then it would be a really nice size!). I'll post some pics of it when it comes (suppose to be around the first few days of April). __________________ Location: New York City, zone 7b

03-20-2011, 10:04 PM	#16 (permalink)
saltydad saltydad's Photo Gallery Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA Find me on the map! Zone: 7a Name: Howard Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,552 BananaBucks : 293,570 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 14,712 Times Was Thanked 4,662 Times in 1,778 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 824 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix My experience with leaving pindo palms outside for the winter was not good. Actually, I tried it with a B. capitata and a B. eriospatha. Both died with protection. Now I plant my pindo in the garden, but dig it up and pot it for inside for the winter each year.. __________________ Men In Nursing- "A Few Good Men" "Gardening is the purest of human pleasures." - Francis Bacon "If by a liberal, they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind; someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions; someone who cares about the welfare of the people, their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties; someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicion that grips us; that is what they meant by a liberal, I am proud to be a liberal." John F. Kennedy, September, 1960 http://flickr.com/photos/saltydad/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/saltydad http://s751.photobucket.com/albums/xx151/saltydad/

03-20-2011, 10:25 PM	#17 (permalink)
nannerfunboi nannerfunboi's Photo Gallery Location: provo utah Find me on the map! Zone: 6 Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 393 BananaBucks : 39,191 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 692 Times Was Thanked 481 Times in 251 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 23 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix saltydad.ive been kicking idea of trying palms.. utah here.. theres a guy over on daves garden..in kansas..he is a big time palm grower.. and has great sucess.. i was thinking same as u.. plant out in garden..then dig up in fall and overwinter inside.. im just not sure how well palms do getting dug up??? was thinking same with bird of paradise.. were lucky with bananas..they do ok planting out then transplanting.. good luck to ya!!!

03-20-2011, 10:31 PM	#18 (permalink)
saltydad saltydad's Photo Gallery Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA Find me on the map! Zone: 7a Name: Howard Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,552 BananaBucks : 293,570 Feedback: 2 / 100% Said "Thanks" 14,712 Times Was Thanked 4,662 Times in 1,778 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 824 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix I also do this with the European Fan Palm, C. humilis var cerifera. They like it; I'm the one with a sore back. These suckers are getting big! The palms I do leave out 12 months a year are the needle palms, R. hystrix, and the windmill palms, T. fortunei. They have been doing OK. Actually I stopped mulching and wrapping them 2 years ago, and while they show some cold damage, they're still beautiful to me here in my Maryland backyard. __________________ Men In Nursing- "A Few Good Men" "Gardening is the purest of human pleasures." - Francis Bacon "If by a liberal, they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind; someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions; someone who cares about the welfare of the people, their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties; someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicion that grips us; that is what they meant by a liberal, I am proud to be a liberal." John F. Kennedy, September, 1960 http://flickr.com/photos/saltydad/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/saltydad http://s751.photobucket.com/albums/xx151/saltydad/

03-20-2011, 11:07 PM	#19 (permalink)
palmtree palmtree 's Photo Gallery Location: New York City Find me on the map! Zone: 7b Name: Alex C Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,016 BananaBucks : 130,674 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,492 Times Was Thanked 1,428 Times in 644 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 103 Times	Re: Chamaedorea microspadix Saltydad, I definitely think I will try that with one of my pindos! It sounds like a good idea. Palms arent crazy about being moved, but they will be fine as long as you dont damage the roots. I dont think I would risk doing this with my Chamaedora because they grow slowly so any damage would take a long time to fix and they do well in pots anyway. __________________ Location: New York City, zone 7b

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