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-   -   OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!! (http://www.bananas.org/f30/ok-seeds-ready-velutina-2718.html)

Randy4ut 10-12-2007 03:58 PM
OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
The first bunch that I harvested have been cleaned, WHEW!!! and ready to go out... I think I will just clean them the old fashioned way. Here's what I did:
I soaked the fruit in water for about 4 days after I halved them. Last night I spent about 2 hours at the kitchen sink carefully peeling the fruit back by the outer layer, scraping the seeds as I went. I tried to minimize the amount of pulp that went with the seeds. Afterward, I strained them while running water over them. The pulp did not want to rinse through the strainer, so I picke as much of it out as I could. I then placed the seeds on a screen out in the garage to dry overnight. This morning, I took all the seeds and placed them in a tube with some sand in it, capped it and shook the dickens out of it. After about 5 minutes, I screened the sand off and they were done. All in all, they are cleaner and in alot better shape than the ones I ran through a blender last year, so hopefully you folks can have better luck with them germinating. I will be shipping them out by the first of next week and we be sending each of you an e-mail for notification... I plan on sending at least 100 seeds to everyone so you can try different techniques to see which works best. Like I asked, please submit feedback on your techniques and germination rates so others can learn from each other. Hopefully, we can start a thread on this so we can all learn more about this GREAT little nanner!!!
:twonanners: :twonanners: :twonanners: :2691: :0488: :2691: :twonanners: :twonanners: :twonanners:

Hey all,
This is the thread I started and wanted everyone that got some of the seeds to contribute to it. Any info you can share with others on successes and failures would be good to share. With a minumum of 100 seeds apiece, we should get some good trials going on. SHARE THE INFO!!!!

klemmthamm 10-12-2007 09:54 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Thank you Randy! I am going to donate some of the plants that come from these seeds (when I get back, and the plants are robust enough to take a winter with little protection) to a community garden here in Sand Springs in honor of all of my fallen comrades and all who have given the the greatest sacrifice in service to their fellow man.

Thank you again,

James

Randy4ut 10-12-2007 10:10 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by klemmthamm (Post 20002)
Thank you Randy! I am going to donate some of the plants that come from these seeds (when I get back, and the plants are robust enough to take a winter with little protection) to a community garden here in Sand Springs in honor of all of my fallen comrades and all who have given the the greatest sacrifice in service to their fellow man.

Thank you again,

James
That has to be the best gesture I could have ever thought of. When you get a chance, hollar at me by pm or e-mail, I have something that I would like to share with you... God bless you and the others that are sacrificing everything for us!!! Take care and keep in touch...
Randy

BGreen 10-12-2007 10:50 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Randy, thank you again.
This should be a very interesting trial / experiment.
I have a few ideas to try. I am thinking 5 different methods of 20 seeds each then? Does that sound about right to everyone?

James you be safe. I have a lot of friends in the millitary and can't thank you enough for the jobs you guys are doing. Your about 4 hours from me and 2hours from my in-laws so if you need someone to help care for the bananas
let me know

klemmthamm 10-12-2007 11:07 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
I appreciate that Ben... I have a little while longer at home so I should be good till spring (everything dug/brought inside)... I will be able to get online every now and then over there so I will be able to send out a banana SOS if need be, lol :D But you are always welcome to visit anyway!


-James-

BGreen 10-13-2007 07:41 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
I found the information below that may help with the "Randy Velutina Seed Trials", lol

Bioversity International: Musaceae

Quote:
CHAPTER 49. MUSACEAE
The Musaceae comprise about 100 species of partly woody plants within about six genera which provide edible fruits (e.g. Musa accuminata Colla, banana) and fibres (e.g. Musa textilis Nee, Manila hemp). The fruits are berries and seed storage behaviour is orthodox.

SEED DORMANCY AND GERMINATION

The seeds have linear embryos, copious endosperm and a thick hard testa. Dormancy per se (that is innate seed dormancy, see Chapter 5, Volume I) is a problem (sometimes severe) in germination tests and in addition the thick hard testa can act as a barrier to germination. Chipping the testa and testing in alternating temperature regimes promote seed germination. Detailed information on seed dormancy and germination is provided in this chapter for the genus Musa only, although a comment on Ensete is also included in this section.


MUSA

M. acuminata Colla

banana


M. balbisiana Colla

banana


M. textilis Née

abaca, Manila hemp




I. Evidence of dormancy

Promoting the germination of banana seeds is difficult in plant breeding (1,4-6). The germination of intact seeds is either unsuccessful (1), or erratic with only low proportions of seeds germinating (4). The low germination reported for banana seeds is due to the degree of maturity of the seed when extracted from the fruit (5,6), and in particular to dormancy - as the following examples of after-ripening demonstrate. Storage of seeds of M. balbisiana in a desiccator at room temperature for 3 months resulted in an increase in germination from 73% to 95% (5). In M. acuminata and M. balbisiana germination increased from 28% to 84% and 86% respectively, after 6 months storage in an atmosphere of 5% carbon dioxide at room temperature (6). Whilst 2 year old seeds of M. balbisiana did not germinate at all at any constant temperatures after 5 months in test, 99% of seeds germinated in satisfactory alternating temperature regimes (7). Moreover seeds buried in the soil can remain dormant for a year (6) or more (4). Seeds of the closely related Ensete spp. may survive for up to 25 years in soil and still germinate after disturbance (6). The above examples of loss in dormancy with after-ripening treatments also demonstrate that Musa spp. seeds show orthodox storage characteristics.


II. Germination regimes for non-dormant seeds

M. balbasiana

Alternating temperatures: 20°/35°C, 27°/32°C (19h/5h) (7)


III. Unsuccessful dormancy-breaking treatments

M. acuminata

Pre-dry: sun, desiccator, 1w (5)

Pre-soak: 1-4w, in light or dark (5)

M. balbisiana

Constant temperatures: 28°C, 32°C, 38°C (7); 18°-35°C (8); 25°-40°C (9)

Alternating temperatures: 4°/27°C, 4°/32°C, 4°/35°C, 27°/4°C, 32°/4°C, 27°/12°C, 35°/12°C, 27°/15°C, 35°/15°C, 27°/18°C, 32°/27°C (19h/5h) (7)

Pre-chill: (9); 10°C, 4d (5); 4°C, 80d (7)

Pre-dry: sun, desiccator, 1w (5); 60°C, 4d (5); scorch (5)

Pre-soak: 12h (2); 2d (5); 1-4w, in light or dark (5); 2d, then dry, 2d (5); 2-192h (9)

Pre-wash: 2-192h (9)

Scarification: chip (5); concentrated sulphuric acid, 8-64 min (5)

Ethanol: (6); 5, 30, 95, 100%, 5s (9)

Carbon tetrachloride: 5s (9)

Mercuric chloride: pre-applied, 1-50 min, 10-4, 10-2 M (6)

Acetone: 5s (9)

Ethyl acetate: 5s (9)

Hydrogen peroxide: pre-applied, 24,48h, 1% (9)

Ultrasonics: 5,60,300s (2)

M. textilis

Pre-dry: sun, 24-72h (10)

Pre-soak: 30°C, 40°C, 50°C, 1-20 min (10); 60°C, 5, 10 min (10); 70°C, 5-15 min (10); 80°C, 100°C (10)

Scarification: hand (11); concentrated sulphuric acid, 0.5-3h (10); sulphuric acid, 3, 6 N, 0.5-3h (10); concentrated hydrochloric acid, 0.5-3h (10); hydrochloric acid, 3, 6 N, 0.5-3h (10); concentrated nitric acid, 0.5-3h (10); nitric acid, 3, 6 N, 0.5-3h (10)

Sodium hydroxide: pre-applied, 24h, 0.5-5% (11)


IV. Partly-successful dormancy-breaking treatments

M. acuminata

Pre-dry: sun, 3d (5)

M. balbisiana

Alternating temperatures: 12°-18°/27°-35°C, 27°/32°C, 27°/35°C, 35°/4°C, 35°/18°C, 35°/27°C, 32°/12°C, 32°/15°C, 32°/18°C (19h/5h) (7); 24°/37°C, 18°/32°C (19h/5h) (8)

Pre-chill: 15°C, 4m (7); 12°C, 3,4m, germinate at 20°/35°C (16h/8h) (7)

Warm stratification: 28°C, 32°C, 38°C, 6w, germinate at 19°/28°C, 19°/32°C, 19°/38°C (19h/5h) (7)

Pre-dry: whole fruit, 45°C, 4d (6)

Scarification: concentrated sulphuric acid, 2,4 min (5); sulphuric acid, 50%, 30 min (9); concentrated nitric acid, 15 min (9); sodium hydroxide, 10%, 2,4h (9); hydrogen chloride, 20%, 1h (9); mechanical (8,9)

Ultrasonics: 30s (2) pH: 5.2-6.3 (3)

Light: daylight (5); 12h/d (9)

M. textilis

Warm stratification: 2-4m (11)

Pre-soak: 16h (4)


V. Successful dormancy-breaking treatments

M. balbisiana

Alternating temperatures: 18°/35°C (12-19h/12-5h) (7)

Warm stratification: 27°C, 32°C, 4m, germinate at 20°/35°C (19h/5h) (7)

Pre-soak: 24h (12); 24h, then warm stratification (12)

Removal of seed covering structures: excise embryo (1,8); chip (9); chip, germinate at 27°/32°C, 18°/32°C (19h/5h) (7)

Scarification: concentrated sulphuric acid, 2-16 min, continue test for 5m (5)


VI. Comment

It is essential that banana seeds be tested for germination in alternating temperature regimes. Constant temperatures outside the range 10°-37°C result in seed death (7). Within this range virtually no germination occurs in dormant seeds(7), but the seeds will subsequently germinate after transfer to a suitable alternating temperature regime (7). A fairly large amplitude is required for full germination: 12°/35°C or 15°/35°C (19h/5h) are probably the most suitable (7), but 18°/35°C (19h/5h) could be used provided the germination test period is extended to 49 days (7). Chipping imbibed seeds in the germination test may result in more rapid germination (7,9). Where the seeds do not exhibit dormancy they will germinate within about 3 weeks when tested in sand at 25° to 30°C.


VII. References

1. Cox, E.A., Stotzky, G. and Goos, R.D. (1960). In vitro culture of Musa balbisiana Colla embryos. Nature, 185, 403-404.

2. Perry, L.P. and Boodley, J.W. (1980). Germination of foliage plant seeds in response to pre-sowing ultrasonic exposures, water soaks and fungicides. HortScience, 15, 192-194.

3. Perry, L.P. and Boodley, J.W. (1980). Germination of foliage plant seeds in response to sowing media, depths of sowing, pH levels and medium temperatures. HortScience, 15, 194-196.

4. Purseglove, J.W. (1972). Tropical Crops. Monocotyledons, pp. 361, Longman, London.

5. Simmonds, N.W. (1952). The germination of banana seeds. Tropical Agriculture, Trinidad, 29, 35-49.

6. Simmonds, N.W. (1959). Experiments on the germination of banana seeds. Tropical Agriculture, Trinidad, 36, 259-274.

7. Stotzky, G. and Cox. E.A. (1962). Seed germination studies in Musa. II. Alternating temperature requirement for the germination of Musa balbisiana. American Journal of Botany, 49, 763-770.

8. Stotzky, G., Cox, E.A., and Goos, R.D. (1961). Alternating temperature requirements for the germination of Musa balbisiana Colla seeds. Plant Physiology, 36, 21-22.

9. Stotzky, G., Cox, E.A. and Goos, R.D. (1962). Seed germination studies in Musa. I, Scarification and aspetic germination of Musa balbisiana. American Journal of Botany, 49, 515-520.

10. Ferrer, L.G. and Espino, R.B. (1923). A study on the germination of abaca seeds. Philippine Agriculturist, 12, 101-110.

11. Ricahuerta, J.R. (1952). Germination and viability study of seven abaca varieties. Philippine Agriculturist, 35, 504-511.

12. Riley, J.M. (1981). Growing rare fruit from seed. California Rare Fruit Growers Yearbook, 13, 1-47.

Randy4ut 10-14-2007 07:17 AM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Ben,
Looks like you are going to need some more seeds if you are going to try all of them, huh!?!?! Hopefully it will not take that long to germinate... Interesting stuff though...

BGreen 10-14-2007 03:16 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
I don't have the room to try all those methods, lol
I just wanted to post some ideas for people. It would be nice if the seeds germinated like the yucca I just tried. In less than a week in a baggy I had close to 50% germinate. Not real sure I want to mess with the 200+ extras I have now, lol

magicgreen 10-14-2007 09:52 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
:2623: Hi all, just read these post & Iam very excited, and looking forward to receiving my seeds! :2780: I just started taking a short course on Community gardening at the Cint. Civic center, and as soon as I read about the seeds, I thought that a community garden might be a GREAT place to grow a nanner. { And learn more stuff}Ive been researching different seed starting methods. But me thinks my bathroom is going to be one experiment. The light is great and so is the temp. And I'll also try one of my dryer areas of the house. Can't wait to hear all the experiments ! I am a Veteran also.....And Brother I will Pray for you! God Bless, and Good Luck to Everyone growing new babies from scratch!!!!!!!! MagicGreen .... :simpatica

klemmthamm 10-15-2007 05:48 AM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Your prayers are appreciated MG. And I love community gardens... they allow people who may not be able to garden (health, apartments, etc.) to enjoy the beauty of nature that they otherwise may not have been able to enjoy. If I had the money I would buy a few vacant lots around my town and start a few more.

Good luck with the seeds and I look forward to hearing about everyone's experiences with them.

-James-

Randy4ut 10-15-2007 11:13 AM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Just wanted to give a quick update to the second batch of seeds that I will be harvesting. Today, I took one banana that was just starting to open to work with me and a good friend of mine and I cut into 3 small pieces and placed it into warm water with coarse grade sand. We then placed the beaker into the ultrasonic bath with warm water. After about 3 hours, the seeds were almost completely separated from the pulp. The ones that were not, were easily removed by hand with no pulp attached. Talking about easy. I am wondering if the same could be done with a "jewelry cleaner"? I know that a jewelry cleaner is alot smaller but the principle would be the same, right? Tomorrow, we will be "smashing" the banana into just pulp to see if time can be reduced. We will also be trying to have a more concentrated slurry of sand and water... May even place some in a centrifuge to try and separate?
I was just wondering if anyone has ever tried a food dehydrator to dry out the fruit and then remove the seeds? Would this be a possibility?
Like I said above, just wanted to update on next batch. If there is anyone that would like to get in on this little trial, let me know and I will be more than happy to send you some seeds to start out with...
Randy

Randy4ut 10-15-2007 09:08 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
I moved this quote from the "cleaning seeds" post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by klemmthamm (Post 20121)
Got the seeds today!!! I am trying just a couple of different methods...

1.)seeds straight into potting mix (miracle grow mix)
a.)without soaking
b.)soaked for 24 hours
c.)soaked for 48 hours

2.)seeds into seed starting jelly stuff (resembles stuff from silica packs)
a.)without soaking
b.)soaked for 24 hours
c.)soaked for 48 hours

My setup isn't all that technical or neat I guess but I am really curious on how the soaking and substrate effect the germination.


-James-

D_&_T 10-15-2007 09:25 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
was hoping to find nanner seeds at home today, but no one went to check our PO box:confused:

Dan

Lard Greystoke 10-16-2007 12:32 AM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Received my seeds today. Plan to divide into 5 sections as follows:

1) Store 20 under cool, dry conditions & plant in spring.
2) Soak 40 in plain water 36 hours.
3) Soak 40 in water with detergent added, 36 hours.

Of the 80 soaked seeds, plant 1/2 of each in potting soil mix, and 1/2 in a stratified mix of damp soil on bottom, dry sand in the middle containing the seeds and damp soil on top.

Thanks to Randy for all the hard work he has put into this.

Randy4ut 10-16-2007 04:48 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Moved from "Musa velutina seeds" thread on "For Sale" forum...
Thanks Isaac, for the notice... Keep us informed...

Re: Musa velutina seeds...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The seeds arrived today. I put them in a clear plastic container after soaking them in water for two hours. They are in Miracle Grow 'Moisture Control' potting soil outdoors with the lid on. They will recieve direct sunlight in the morning hours and should see a change of temp around 20*F per day. Thank you again for being so generous and taking the time to send the seeds. I will post an update whenever I have to move them indoors for winter.
Isaac

D_&_T 10-16-2007 06:28 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
found the mailer in box tonight:2784:
so we will work on growing them shortly

Dan & Tara

RobG7aChattTN 10-16-2007 07:29 PM
Here's what I did last year (with great success)...
 
Last year I got some seeds form Randy and immediately put them in a community pot in Miracle Grow potting soil. Nothing happened and I moved the pot inside the garage for the winter. It was about 60*F or so over the winter. Then I read about varying the temps. I already had a plastic tub with needle palm seeds in it. It had constant heat on the bottom and a light bulb shining down in the box to raise the temps for a few hours a day. I put the seeds in a zip lock baggie on top of this so there would be residual heat from the light bulb for 4 hours a day and then the seeds would cool back down to 60*F. I assume that the heated four hours was in the mid-80's. Let's just call it 86*F. Anyway, this was in early April and within a few days there were seeds germinating all over the place. I dumped them out to pick out the germinated seeds and found that there were hundreds. I just dumped them on top of some Miracle Grow potting soil in a pot and put about a half and inch of potting soil over them and watered them well. We had that early warm spell and then I pulled them into the garage for the cold snap. I got tons but lost almost all of them later in the year after they had been overcrouded almost all summer and then planted out in full sun and extreme heat. I'll try again next year and plant them out early.

D_&_T 10-16-2007 07:40 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
does anyone know if which side of seed is turn up matter?:bungejumpnaner:
one side is black and other is tan in color
Dan

Randy4ut 10-16-2007 08:03 PM
Re: OK>>>> Seeds are ready on the velutina!!!
 
Pulled this up from last year's experiment done by a gentleman using some of the velutina seeds I supplied him. I wish he would try again this year with some of the seeds I have because the ones last year I honestly think contained alot of damaged seeds due to my using a blender to try and separate the pulp. Allen, are you out there!?!?!
Anyway, here is a link to his experiment and some great info from, who else but, Gabe and BigDog!!!
http://www.bananas.org/showthread.ph...tomy+of+a+seed

Randy4ut 10-16-2007 08:04 PM
Re: Here's what I did last year (with great success)...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG7aChattTN (Post 20182)
Last year I got some seeds form Randy and immediately put them in a community pot in Miracle Grow potting soil. Nothing happened and I moved the pot inside the garage for the winter. It was about 60*F or so over the winter. Then I read about varying the temps. I already had a plastic tub with needle palm seeds in it. It had constant heat on the bottom and a light bulb shining down in the box to raise the temps for a few hours a day. I put the seeds in a zip lock baggie on top of this so there would be residual heat from the light bulb for 4 hours a day and then the seeds would cool back down to 60*F. I assume that the heated four hours was in the mid-80's. Let's just call it 86*F. Anyway, this was in early April and within a few days there were seeds germinating all over the place. I dumped them out to pick out the germinated seeds and found that there were hundreds. I just dumped them on top of some Miracle Grow potting soil in a pot and put about a half and inch of potting soil over them and watered them well. We had that early warm spell and then I pulled them into the garage for the cold snap. I got tons but lost almost all of them later in the year after they had been overcrouded almost all summer and then planted out in full sun and extreme heat. I'll try again next year and plant them out early.

Rob,
Thanks for your input... Hopefully these seeds I have for you will do even better than last's...


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