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Old 01-09-2011, 06:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Variegated Musa "Florida"

Anyone have any information on this Musa that has been available from Thailand for the past few years? Is it a subspecies of Aeae or is it Aeae with another tacked on name? I think I read somewhere one time that it is smaller and has more red on the petioles than Aeae. Are there any members who have this plant and can compare it to Aeae for any differences? Id love to hear from anyone with any information or growing experiences!
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Quote:
Originally Posted by varig8 View Post
Anyone have any information on this Musa that has been available from Thailand for the past few years? Is it a subspecies of Aeae or is it Aeae with another tacked on name? I think I read somewhere one time that it is smaller and has more red on the petioles than Aeae. Are there any members who have this plant and can compare it to Aeae for any differences? Id love to hear from anyone with any information or growing experiences!
I saw pictures of Florida variegated here some time ago. Those plants all look very similarly, but if I recall correctly, there were some differences that made it possible to identify them at maturity as different.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Thanks Jackdaw! I have also seen photos posted here in members galleries, but, Im more interested in trying to find out if it is a separate variety or a mutation of Aeae. I find it a little troublesome that it is being sold out of Thailand as "Florida" and here in Florida I have never seen it available?! Im assuming that if it is a named cultivar (Florida), then it seems logical that the original plants came from here. Or somehow produced a mutation from an AeAe exported to Thailand from Florida? Its really hard to figure out especially since I have seen bananas coming out of Thailand with 4 and 5 different names for the exact same plant. I dont know if this is regional thing, or a sales ploy. It would really be optimal if there is a member growing both this cultivar and AeAe and have had them flower and produce fruit to compare them. I await good news.....................:>)
Ive just come up with another thought........I suppose thats its also possible that some TC trays of Musa were shipped overseas and one or a few turned out to be variegated.........and then were named "FLORIDA".... food for thought........It could be another type entirely and just the variegated form of it, not having anything to do with AeAe at all. Perhaps there is a member who bought a "Florida" and could remember the seller to try and track down its origin?

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Old 01-09-2011, 07:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

I can pass along what I was told. I bought the "Florida" variegate and imported it from Thailand. I was told by the seller that his "friend" had bought the variegated banana in Florida and brought it back to Thailand. He did not know the name of it and named it "Florida" because that was where it came from. After hearing this story, I figured they were the same as Ae Ae. It struggled for me and died so I do not have it any longer and have had several Ae's since and never had them fruit or flower for me, so I can't help there.

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Old 01-09-2011, 07:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Here's info for one I found just now on Ebay:
"New Vareity Hybrid Very Variegate Beautiful Leave and Rare Hard to fine" Ive copied and uploaded 3 photos from the auction here, and in 2 of them you can plainly see the reddish coloration along the petioles close to the P-stem. You can click on the thumbnails to magnify them. I dont recall seeing this much coloration ever on any of my Aeae? I cant be sure but the variegation patterning doesnt quite look exactly like Aeae either..........seems to have a lot of gray/green coloration not readily seen in Aeae, but this could be my imagination as variegation patterns and distribution varies from plant to plant. Hopefully another member bought one of these "Florida" and have had it flower and fruit? Still awaiting with anticipation.........:>)
BTW Thanx Jananas Bananas
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Musa Florida1.jpg (40.6 KB, 113 views)
File Type: jpg musa florida3.jpg (37.9 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg musa florida2.jpg (29.8 KB, 94 views)

Last edited by varig8 : 01-09-2011 at 07:40 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

I did buy mine off eBay but not from this seller - I think it started with "ag". I have been digging through my old emails trying to find the info for you. I did have an Ae with a lot of pink on it that I bought this past year from Hilo, Hawaii. Not as much as the pictures you have though, as it grew older the pink faded also. I think Clare posted pictures of one that showed a lot of pink also. Sorry I couldn't be more help!





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Old 01-09-2011, 08:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Yep, I have seen red coloration on the edges of new leaves on lots of different types of variegated plants, including AeAe. But as you state, it usually fades with age. Its sort of a 'protective' coloration produced on the newest leaves and most often comes from being grown in full sun or at least very very bright light. Im still hopeful that this coloration is retained on the larger more adult plants which could indicate a different variety. Thanks so much for your perseverance! Ive written a message to this seller asking for information on the differences, if any. We'll see how much is understood concerning the language barriers................always a somewhat dis-heartening attempt! (I need a Thai translater!) Agtree is probably the source where you obtained yours........ sorry it croaked!!!!
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Based on the photos, the fruit shape is very different from 'A'ea'e', which indicates that photo is likely not 'A'ea'e'. However, very often, photos get mixed up and the photos presented are not of the actual plants, so the only real way to know for sure is to do as varig8 has realized, and have both plants growing at the same place and compare them side by side.

The red coloration is not a very good indicator as colors on that part of the plant can vary a lot based on the environment. Additionally, for the Maoli/Popo'ulu subgroup (to which 'A'ea'e' belongs), that type of coloration is normal on many cultivars.
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Old 01-09-2011, 11:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Thanks Gabe, although I was afraid that this might be the only way to figure out if they are separate varieties without another member having had it flower and fruit. I hadnt noticed the shape of the bananas in this auction photo, but you are right. Not at all like the fruit of the Aeae. This furthers my suspicions that this is a different banana after all. I have so many varieties in a limited space as it is, I really didnt want to add yet another variegate, but looks like I might just have too! BTW Gabe, perhaps you will be able to shed a bit of light on another 'mystery' variegate I got hold of? It was sold to me labeled as Variegated Ornata Roxb. The seller has turned out to be a bit unreliable and has re-surfaced on Ebay under 4 different names since I bought it. I have since seen the same seller offer it under another name, on another site, as 'Variegated Roxb 'Aeae'.........Well OK, now I know thats not right..........The seller told me it was brought from Indonesia and they had only 3 plants. I paid a hefty price for it--the price went up each time one more was sold (I was the first buyer)--and the last price was over $1000. for the last one! It arrived as a fairly large dry corm from Singapore. There were also seed offered from the same variety at exorbitant prices, but these could have been seed from any ornata if the seller wasnt on the up and up-none ever sprouted for me or another member who bought some. As it started to grow it grew quickly to about 4' P-stem and then pretty much stopped as fall and winter set in. The P-stem is no larger than 4" in dia. from bottom to top, the leaves are longer and thinner than Aeae and it has just recently produced 2 suckers-very small compared to Aeae, (and Ive grown 30-40 Aeae over the years). Its habit and growth form seems to be similar to Sumatrana in shape and growing form. I have 2 recent photos which I will post here. Im hoping that it will flower and fruit this coming season. Then I will at least be able to tell if it is an Ornata or not, and if it is, most likely I will be able to tell which one from the coloration of the bananas and the fruit. Ill also post one of the photos from the original auction, which will be the first photo. Thanks in advance!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg variegated Roxb Ornata.jpg (11.1 KB, 107 views)
File Type: jpg musa RoxB 001.JPG (1.29 MB, 94 views)
File Type: jpg musa RoxB 002.JPG (1.38 MB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg musa RoxB 003.JPG (1.38 MB, 50 views)

Last edited by varig8 : 01-09-2011 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Musa 'Florida variegate' or just an AeAe

My baby Variegated Asian Wild Banana

Last edited by sunfish : 01-10-2011 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Sunfish;
Thanks for the links! Imagine my surprise to read an update by Tog from a thread in which I had originally wondered about this plant. I dont know how I missed his reply back then, but this is the first time Ive read it! Now Im starting to wonder if that Roxb nanner I have might be a 'Florida'? I have the others he mentions as well, including the 'sickly' looking wild Asian banana-the variegation on its leaves is minimal and this year is the first time I have had it flower and fruit. It suckers profusely, but not all are variegated. I guess I will wait to see what this Roxb mystery banana ends up doing. IF it IS Ornata Roxb, I think it should be the one that is native to India with a light pink erect flower and small green seeded fruit. If its NOT, then I think I will probably end up purchasing one of these "Floridas" to see what develops! Thanks again to all for your input.

The following is copied and pasted from Tog's post and is really informative as to the varieties sold out of Thailand and worth repeating here;

Basically there are 4 forms of Variegated 'naners offered in Bkk;

1. The Yellow Variegated aka Aurea is the Musa acuminata subsp siamea which grows to about 8ft tall. Lots of yellow on the leaf with little bit of green. When young, looks sickly.

2. The Var Indon Ivory (this, Harvey's?) is actually a Variegated Musa balbisiana which came from Indonesia. This grows big to 14ft. Color is green and white like the Ae Ae but more green. A damn robust grower.
(This same banana is also sold under the names; Giant Tanna, Ta Nee, Tannee, Bluggoe, and Silver Bluggoe. The leaves are more rigid, very shiny olive dark green, white variegation consists of sectored and thin stripes).

3. Var Kluay Nam Wah which is an edible cultivar and it costs more than the other 2 in Bkk cos...it's edible!

4. Var Ae Ae, everyone knows what this is rite...? When it first came to Bkk, it was known as Var Florida cos some guy took it back from Florida.

Last edited by varig8 : 01-10-2011 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

I sort of own part of a Florida Variegate but don't have possession of it but hope to be growing it myself one of these days. I've not heard of anyone here in the USA getting one to fruit. I think one of the eBay sellers once said it was a seeded fruit, but I might be mistaken about that since it's been a couple of years since I read up on it.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

I don't know enough about Ae Ae just yet, so I don't know if it is different or not. What I DO know about orchids from Thailand is that the Thai's are notorious for taking registered plants to their own nurseries, mericloning them, and then selling them under another name. In other words - stealing and making $$ from someone else's work. Also, more than half of their orchids show infection with cymbidium mosaic virus which indicates their conditions are not very clean, and they are the plant kingdom equivalent of a 'puppy mill'.

Once, when I was still rather naive about orchids, I bought Dendrobium Sea Mary 'Snow Queen' which, according to the tag, was supposed to be a patented plant - no one could legally propagate the plant without authorization from the patent holder. After some investigation, I discovered that a VERY (virtually identical) similar plant was named Dendrobium Sea Marian, and one cultivar was named 'Sea King'. After even more digging, I discovered that RHS (Royal Horticultural Society - the guys that started looking into orchid taxonomy back in the 1800's) has it listed as Den. Sea Marian - so I would bet $$ that that is the correct name. So the ass-hats that stole it then patented the stolen / renamed plant so no one else would steal it. That is what I call CHUTZPAH!! Bottom line: don't trust any plant names for plants from Thailand - it is probably a scam to drive up the price, anyway.

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Old 04-07-2011, 07:45 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Hi, one of my so called 'Florida' just bloomed. I hope that the following photos will help in determining the taxa of this plant.




Now i'm very sure that it is not an Ae Ae as I got some sizeable plants (5'+) for quite cheap from a farm here (contrary to the exorbitant price on eBay), it is very easy to grow and all the pups retain the variegated form.

One more thing, plants from the same batch seem to spot varying degrees of variegation, some are 'half white' and produce pups that are also 'half white' (i'm obviously not an expert. I have no idea on the reason behind this, so pardon me, I just write what I observed )

I will post more photos as the fruits develop. If photos of other parts of the plants are needed, I will be more than happy to help.

Last edited by camillenoir : 04-08-2011 at 07:49 AM. Reason: some information are better left undispersed :p
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
Based on the photos, the fruit shape is very different from 'A'ea'e', which indicates that photo is likely not 'A'ea'e'. However, very often, photos get mixed up and the photos presented are not of the actual plants, so the only real way to know for sure is to do as varig8 has realized, and have both plants growing at the same place and compare them side by side.

The red coloration is not a very good indicator as colors on that part of the plant can vary a lot based on the environment. Additionally, for the Maoli/Popo'ulu subgroup (to which 'A'ea'e' belongs), that type of coloration is normal on many cultivars.
Is that the correct spelling for Ae Ae? Thanks Gabe.


I did some searching in Thai. And it seems there is some confusion with the name. Some refer to 'A'ea'e' as kluai florida dang (which translate to variagated florida banana). But the name could be synonymous with another type of banana and some nurseryman maybe don't realize there are two types. It could be a mutated local or other imported variety...

You can see some in the links below. The fruit doesn't look like 'A'ea'e' to me, but then I'm not really an expert on these varieties.

¿Դ

Plantlover Webboard
(scroll down for several more and you can see some of the fruit with pink)


Sign says: Variegated Florida Banana. Don't touch, No picking
Hehe

Edit: The shape reminds me a lot of the Leb Muenang (a cv. name that translates to Lady Finger)

Last edited by musaboru : 04-07-2011 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Forgot I posted in this thread already - this post is pretty much what I said earlier about any Thai bananas.

Ae Ae looks pretty much the same to me, although I've only seen young ones. My Ae Ae also has the color on the edges. Make sure the photos you see were not re-touched to give extra red coloring. That being said, the Ae Ae from Hawaii is a variegated Maoli which tends to have fruit that are roundish on the ends, not pointed. There are plenty of Ae Ae in Florida so it would be easy to take one to Thailand, and tack on a new name, pass it off as a rare new kind for more $$. Also, if the banana was subjected to genetic alteration due to certain chemical exposure which would not show up right away, that could account for the different fruit shape, or the fruit was cut before it could develop the round shape.

Bottom line - I will not trust anything from Thailand that resembles varieties form the U.S. They have shown their level of integrity, and they can go *&%$#! themselves as far as I'm concerned.

It would appear that they have a chemical that will induce / increase variegation, or are irradiating the plants. Doesn't mean it didn't come from Florida. You want to deal with them, that's your business, I want nothing to do with them - I refuse to reward such tactics.

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Old 04-07-2011, 06:17 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Camillenoir;
PLEASE do keep taking photos as the flower and fruit progress and post to this thread......Do you notice any other differences in the plant? such as thickness of the Psuedostem, or height, or length and/or width of leaves and petioles?
It does seem that this type is NOT Aeae, and I hope that someone here may take notice of any subtle differences in order to possibly ID it, or not; but maybe in the end to know that it may indeed be a new variegated form of banana and NOT Aeae. Thanks so much for posting these photos!
Personally I dont give 2 sh*ts if it is chemical or radiation induced variegation; If I had the means to do that I would be variegating everything! It is strange that this particular type is said to come from Florida as I have never seen it available in Florida either from other collectors or in the nursery trade. I have a feeling that perhaps Aeae was taken to Thailand and 'named' "Florida", and then was confused along the way with another variegated form introduced from somewhere else as the coloration on the leaves look identical.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

I agree with Varig8.

When I search for the 'Florida' variety in Thai, I get pages with pics of both 'A'ea'e' and the variety with the different shaped fruit. Perhaps this assumed second variety is a lot easier to propagate than 'A'ea'e' and the nurserymen are not distinguishing it from the expensive variety that demands more money. I should mention, one of the links mentions the variety with the different fruit/pink tinge is from Indonesia.

But I recall an old article I read where a Thai research facility irridiated plants. One of them was a water lily tuber and the mutants resulted in having different petal counts and different colors (it went from white and pink picotee to full purple). I wouldn't be surprised if this was being performed on other plants to purposely produce variegated forms.

And this isn't necessarily a bad thing to do to plants. Some of the produce we grow and buy in the US are of irradiated cv. such as some seedless mandarins and grapefruit.

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Old 04-09-2011, 02:49 AM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

Here are more details on the plant(s).



I'm not sure of up to what level should the pseudostem height be measured, so I recorded 2 readings.

Pseudostem Diameter : 17cm at base
Petiole Length : 40cm
Leaf Length : up 210 - 230 cm



Red margins on the petiole are retained at fruiting size, but prone to be the first part to wither on older leaves.



Leaf (I'm only chopping down withering leaves)



Close-up of variegation on petiole.




If you ask me, at this point the fruits sure look like Pisang Berangan (AAA).



Offset plant. The red parts are not too apparent in this photo.

The variegation seems to be reduced as the plant grows. I can't do a side-by-side comparison with typeform Ae Ae as I don't have one (unless some kind souls here could help me obtain one in the name of science. I'll pay of course LOL) but from photos of Ae Ae, I'm sure that these 2 plants are different.


I also got this from the same batch as the one fruiting, but the growth of this particular plant is pretty slow considering the amount of whites it has.



Its offset

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Old 05-27-2011, 07:20 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Variegated Musa "Florida"

update:



(as of May 12th)
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